Need an engine for my Williams

[zaf]

Hi all

Sorry if the post is in the wrong area just want my car back

150000 miles Clio Williams(289) when I drive it really hard the car overheats, I have looked everywhere for a replacement engine and they come and go so quick never really have a chance to get them. I checked the net and found a stage 1 engine £2500 fitted engine dynamics, I just cannot stretch that far, but I cannot drive the car without thinking it will overheat. So either I need someone that can do what they do at a lower price or a lower mileage engine.

can anyone help.....please want to drive my Clio again :upset2:

thanks all

zaf

[ianbirch]

You'd do better to put it into a garage and find out why it's overheating...could be any number of things, faulty thermostat or radiator fan or a number of sensors or switches.

I would think an engine is going to be a minimum £500 and then you've got to fit it.

I'm sure somebody with more specific expertise will be along shortly.

Regards Ian

[Danno]

Join the Facebook group. There are more people on there

[16v_paddy]

Find out why it overheats 1st as just dropping another engine in wont cure the problem

[theweekendhaslanded]

I have an engine that's available. Pm me if your interested.

[zaf]

Thanks everyone...the thermostat was removed still overheating put back, fan is on constant with a switch still overheats,

a good service maybe from the right garage but don't want to spend too much money on a engine with that many miles

I don't know so baffled....anyone got any good but not over the top price in n w london

cheers

[Wild]

Thanks everyone...the thermostat was removed still overheating put back, fan is on constant with a switch still overheats,

a good service maybe from the right garage but don't want to spend too much money on a engine with that many miles

I don't know so baffled....anyone got any good but not over the top price in n w london

cheers

Theres got to be a exact fault on whats causing the car to overheat, whether it be a blocked radiator, blown head gasket, porous cylinder head etc.. I'd rather find out and go from there, after all it may be cheaper than buying a new engine.

I work on fleet vehicles day in day out and some of them have over 150k on them and they get driven hard ... very hard and to be honest they have more go about them than vehicles the same age with 35k :)

Have a think and see if you can find a engineering shop that can take a look and diagnose the problem properly :)

[16v_paddy]

What state is the coolant in? Does it smell of fuel/exhaust gas?
Is the coolant actually circulating properly? Is the radiator hot? Does the heater inside the car get hot?
Before you connected a permanent live to the fan, did it kick in on it's own when engine running and when you switched the engine off? If not or a combination of yes & no, you have a sensor fault.

Try 1 of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-COMBUSTION-LEAK-TESTER-KIT-PETROL-DIESEL-HEAD-GASKET-BLOCK-10ml-FLUID-/112052503598?hash=item1a16d9842e:g:mIsAAOSwqBJXVdH I to see if the head gasket has gone, compression test the engine as well

The cooling systems on these cars are overkill as standard so any kind of overheating means something is broken or not working as it's supposed to and finding the cause is the most important thing to do.
If you've cooked this engine & you replace it with another 1 without finding the cause 1st, chances are you'll end up cooking the replacement as well

[zaf]

Thanks 16_paddy, at least I can check for the leaks...if everything is ok then can the engine be ruled out...as in it must be another component like the rad ..sorry .I am not a mechanic but I am good with my hands and had experience with cars

[16v_paddy]

The more I read this the more it sounds like what mine was doing a few years ago, I'm suspecting head gasket failure but that's only if the radiator itself is getting hot as well as the temp not dropping at all with the fan on & still climbing.

If it is that, the engine will be fine as long as you don't let it get so hot that the coolant bottle explodes as that's what happened to me and that's when it's possible to warp the head :lol:

[zaf]

Wow...don't want that to happen but yes i suspected it could be the head gasket or worse a cracked head.

I need to get a compression tool to find out...if i have lost compression would that lead to head gasket?

And i have got lucky as i havent blown the bottle but i have driven it hard and i am scared i have done something

[Vandella]

how long have you had the car? how long has it overheated after a hard drive? also when we're saying 'driving hard' is this like time attack laps around a track style or a spirited drive?

These do get hot quick which is why there is an oil cooler built into the cooling system... but I would first check the coolant and pieces it runs through.. does the blower inside get hot/warm when the car is up to temp? if its luke warm that's the signs of a blockage, then it wont cool properly.. this will then lead to a gasket failure and the dreaded warped head you fear..

Do you let the car warm up before driving fast and high revs? thrashing a cold engine is not good!! I think the ideal range is get close to 80' on the oil temp gauge before going over 4/5k revs..

mine is on 153k and luckily never had any issues with over heating but then I do try to keep it well maintained.. presumably the levels of the fluids are at the max? coolant/oil etc?

and a failed gasket would lead to shitty compression results

[zaf]

First off I have to say it again....everyone is wicked on this site...loads of respect for everyone

Answers:
- I have had the car for must be 5 years now give or take 2 years
- I drove the car on the road for about 2 years, drove it hard never overheated ever, i then gave it to "a mechanic" he did come recommended added flywheel, clutch, pads other bits and pieces but as soon as I left that garage the car was never the same. I did track day with it and 3 laps overheating, and only short laps. On a the drive up there no issue at all on the way back, filled up water 10 times.
- I really cannot remember the heating it's been sitting for a while, I will start it again and check. And yes I am scared I have mucked something up internal
- the car was warm, you lap a couple of times first and then go for it so the engine was warm...
- I am the same I checked all levels, topped up with oil, water, and the rest it is my baby which is why I feel bad if I did kill it...I blame the mechanic :winkey:

and ok I will check the compression to see.

I wish i just ask someone on this site before I went to some bodger which is why I thought new engine from someone on this site....cause well hoping people want to know she is still about

thanks mate

[16v_paddy]

Losing water is screaming head gasket at me now, is there white smoke coming from the exhaust? It's sounding a lot like the head gasket has failed between 1 of the bores and the waterways
Mine was overheating after sighting laps at a trackday as well :lol: My fan wasn't kicking in so rigged up a permanent 12v to it & carried on with the day & it went pop on the way home :lol:

Compression test as well as the sniff tester will confirm if it is the head gasket

I wouldn't be too harsh on the mechanic just yet - depending what the other "bits & pieces" were of course - a head gasket failing is completely unrelated & nothing to do with clutch, flywheel, discs & pads. It's a bit like getting a new stereo fitted & blaming the guy that fitted it for 1 of your tyres getting a puncture :lol:

[zaf]

Hahaha...so true mate....ok so.....head gasket....Not that bad of a job..but nothing I think I could do....well is it just take off....add gasket...put back on....as you can see how much of a mechanic in me... and did the same thing with my fan....would I have the gunk in the oil I don't think I saw any....let me go to eBay now buy the testers and give it a go. Anyone know the cost of a garage doing the job? On average and in London

the willy will be back.....and I cannot wait

[16v_paddy]

Head gaskets can go in a few different ways so oil & water doesn't always mix

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq165/16v_paddy/Photo0452_zpsokuo8prj.jpg

If you look at all of the little holes around the bores, some are oil ways and others for water, the gasket can fail between them to allow it to mix, or the gasket can fail between the cylinders causing a loss of compression & power and they can also fail between the bore and a waterway which is what you'rs sounds like it's done.



Hahaha...so true mate....ok so.....head gasket....Not that bad of a job..but nothing I think I could do....well is it just take off....add gasket...put back on....as you can see how much of a mechanic in me.

Yes you could do that but I'd advise against it as getting the head checked out 1st is critical - needs to be inspected for damage & repaired if possible, pressure tested, skimmed and if it's off the car it'd be foolish to not get the valve guides checked & replaced as necessary - essentially be prepared to have to completely rebuild the head.

As for cost, London makes it a bit more difficult to guess but as a guide, the local engineering place I use will strip, pressure test, skim & rebuild a 4 cylinder head for about £150 + any other parts needed, which is around £8 per valve guide and about £20 for a set of valve stem oil seals.
You'll also need to factor in the cost of a cambelt kit as the old 1 will be coming off anyway & it'd be stupid not to fit a new one

[zaf]

Great thanks for that...i think a little too much for me at the moment...will ask a mechanic to have a look at what you have just said..if the head is cracked or warped that's it right? How long should it take for the mechanic to say...yep....head is up the duff...a couple of days i guess...

I am going to talk to someone today to check the car out and tell me what is up...at that point if it is bad and will cost just as much as sourcing another engine....then the engine will be the route...luck is what i need

[Vandella]

the only thing you need to worry about getting a new/spare engine is that unless its been recently rebuilt you have no idea of what the condition/state of it is.. the one you buy could potentially be on its way out too..

don't want to put you off or scare you but you need to be aware of all possibilities as you don't want to get a 2nd engine and have issues with that aswell.. maybe cheaper to keep the one you have and just get a new head if that is found to be the source of the issues..

[zaf]

100% about the engine, i would only buy it from someone who is a member of this site...but so true you never know. Lets see what the mechanic says this weekend (or next week) and then i will go from there.

[16v_paddy]

Thing is, all your mechanic can do is send the head to a machine shop or engine builder to get it inspected but it is a relatively quick process to test that it's perfectly flat, visually inspected then pressure tested

As for a replacement engine, unless you know it's recently been rebuilt or has plenty of proof that's it's low enough mileage, I personally wouldn't bother & just get yours rebuilt. You need to bear in mind that at best you'll be getting an engine that's 20+ years old and it's going to need money spending on stuff that would be crazy not to have done while it's sat out of the car & so much easier to do like clutch, cambelt, water pump.

I can see things from your perspective though as you're not able to do the hard work of dismantling the engine to send bits off so I'd suggest to go ahead with a compression test and see what the results are. Ignoring the bad results - you will have at lest 1 or 2 if the HG has gone - if there's healthy compression in the other cylinders you'll know that the rest of the engine is in good health & you can get away with just concentrating on the getting the head sorted.

Can't fully remember off the top of my head but somewhere around 160psi per cylinder is what compression a healthy F7R should have

[theweekendhaslanded]

Definatly consider what paddy is saying. I hope it's a simple ish fix what ever the outcome

[Wobba]

Thing is, all your mechanic can do is send the head to a machine shop or engine builder to get it inspected but it is a relatively quick process to test that it's perfectly flat, visually inspected then pressure tested

As for a replacement engine, unless you know it's recently been rebuilt or has plenty of proof that's it's low enough mileage, I personally wouldn't bother & just get yours rebuilt. You need to bear in mind that at best you'll be getting an engine that's 20+ years old and it's going to need money spending on stuff that would be crazy not to have done while it's sat out of the car & so much easier to do like clutch, cambelt, water pump.

I can see things from your perspective though as you're not able to do the hard work of dismantling the engine to send bits off so I'd suggest to go ahead with a compression test and see what the results are. Ignoring the bad results - you will have at lest 1 or 2 if the HG has gone - if there's healthy compression in the other cylinders you'll know that the rest of the engine is in good health & you can get away with just concentrating on the getting the head sorted.

Can't fully remember off the top of my head but somewhere around 160psi per cylinder is what compression a healthy F7R should have

Compression test and a carbon tester of the coolant are both options.

Is the fan working when it gets hot?

If you can see the coolant top hose depositing coolant into the coolant expansion bottle, that's a good sign of waterpump being ok. Hand revving should see the flow increase.

I suspect HG failure. Cheap fix would be a coolant additive to seal the HG fail area, but this can make a mess of the waterways and not always work!

If you have the tools, an HG change isn't as hard as you might think.

[Wobba]

Here is me as a total noob doing an HG change on an F7P: http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?25512-CODENAME-PROJECT-WOBBA

[zaf]

Thanks Wobba....I think it may be the case....check the engine for everything that everyone has said, i hope that it is some thing minor...and I think I had an issue with the fan which is why I put it on all the time....still overheating....

if if I was to drive 50 miles with no traffic, it would be fine, but put my foot down or find traffic it will overheat...

the nightmare is all I want to do this weekend is check the car and work want me to go France.....ahhhhhhhhhh

will keep everyone posted on what is going on. Thanks again everyone

[zaf]

Hi all, it has been a sad week for me...mechanic came down and said not good compression, scared it could be a cracked head, is that in then for the engine? He said a sealant of some sort could work but no promises....dam boys and girls I'm sad

[Wild]

Hi all, it has been a sad week for me...mechanic came down and said not good compression, scared it could be a cracked head, is that in then for the engine? He said a sealant of some sort could work but no promises....dam boys and girls I'm sad

Do not try any of those 'fix a headgasket' tins of crap!!! Do it properly, take the head off and get it inspected or inspect it yourself. You never know it might just be a blown head gasket, if it is several hours of labour and £100 for the kit? Plus a new timing belt water pump etc ... tah dah engine fixed. As you say it might be a cracked head or worn piston rings but you wont know till you strip it down a bit

[16v_paddy]

More like cracked head gasket, get the head off & get it inspected, anything other than that is pure guesswork & you'd need the head off to confirm the guesses anyway.

What are the compression results on each cylinder?

Under no circumstances use any kind of head gasket repair crap, that WILL wreck the engine

Even if the head is ruined & beyond repair it's quite easily replaceable & the rest of the engine will probably be fine, knowing what the numbers from the compression test will give an indication of this

[zaf]

The mechanic left before I got home but is going to back hopefully tomorrow and I will ask him for all the info... I will add it on and tell me what you think

[bass_direct]

If you need help in London let me know, I'm based in North East London. I also have plenty of spares for these cars and a Williams engine should you need one.

My money is on head gasket failure.

[zaf]

Thanks Bass any help is good mate, let me get the compression readings and then we have start, once this is done we can go from there. Its a good sign that at least one way or another this little car will be back on the road. And just to chuck it out there...is a low turbo upgrade a cardinal sin? And will I be allowed to still send posts out? ;-)

[16v_paddy]

Yes, turbocharged Mk1 Clios are utterly awful & for people not man enough to properly tune a naturally aspirated engine [-(

If just replacing or rebuilding an engine is expensive to you, the cost of going turbo or itb's properly will make you shit yourself :lol:

[ianbirch]

Yes, turbocharged Mk1 Clios are utterly awful & for people not man enough to properly tune a naturally aspirated engine [-(

If just replacing or rebuilding an engine is expensive to you, the cost of going turbo or itb's properly will make you shit yourself :lol:

Succinct....hehe:grin:

[zaf]

Ok ok so what can be done to achieve the same sort of power from n/a just want more power

[16v_paddy]

Many thousands of pounds for both turbo or itb's.

Your only viable option for under £1k or there abouts is a set of cams & pullies, bigger injectors and a remap. Add another£500-600 for getting the head ported etc & you can get somewhere around the 185bhp mark on a healthy engine.
Add another £1500 or so to that & with a bit of luck with on used parts you can convert to itb's & be somewhere close to the 200bhp mark

As for the turbo route, you're looking at similar costs but utilising a different combination of parts compared to itb's

[zaf]

Thanks 16v paddy, are there any threads with the cam and pullies spec with part details anywhere on this forum

[16v_paddy]

No but all the information you'd need regarding the specs of any particular cams is available on the manufacturers websites, the main ones are
Kent http://www.kentcams.com/product-manufacturer-models-parts/model/131/vehicletype/1/manufacturer/Renault/m/Clio/
Piper http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product_search.php?search=clio+williams&go.x=0&go.y=0
& Catcams http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Full-Profile-list-4.html

The pullies aren't anything particulary special or complicated & don't have "specs" per se, they're just the right size & are adjustable in order to set the cams up correctly

It all depends on what sort of power you're wanting to go for, turbo or N/A and how far you want to take it that will determine what cam profiles to go for

[bass_direct]

Personally I wouldn't bother. Keep it standard and don't chase power. It's a never ending game. Instead keep the car as fresh as possible with new parts.

[16v_paddy]

Oh and if you start to get disheartened about the costs involved, just remember that it could be worse, there's a massive (albeit devilishly handsome) retard on here that's so far got just over £2k invested in a cylinder head that's fitted to a car that doesn't even run yet :lol:

[zaf]

Hahaha thanks Paddy....ok so cams and pullies remap.....all I need is someone that can help me to add them on...

Bass_direct you said you could help...is this something you can help with or shall I just get a mechanic to sort it.....

[16v_paddy]

KJ16v on here is the guy for mapping standard ecu's, his website http://www.voodoo-tuning.co.uk/#

Fitting them is the easy part & whoever fits the head for you can do that easily enough - the hard part which you will want KJ to sort (as he'll have the correct tools) will be to dial the cams in then map it

[bass_direct]

Hahaha thanks Paddy....ok so cams and pullies remap.....all I need is someone that can help me to add them on...

Bass_direct you said you could help...is this something you can help with or shall I just get a mechanic to sort it.....

Yes, send me a PM.

Definitely keep it standard. Tuning them is NOT the way forward :) You'll thank me in the long run I promise.

[zaf]

Surely they make them a little more exciting and yes I will probably lose money as it is not original but ...just a little more power?:winkey: