Original Mk1 Clio Cup

[Wobba]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3376318.htm

[MatBrown]

Nice, another one out the woodwork.

[snowman]

8)

[MattDilley]

Just down the road mat!! Fancy a look at the weekend?? Lol

[MatBrown]

Thought you had enough?

[Red Cloud]

Nice set of original MXV2s there.

[chip]

Certainly looks like one of the better examples left :)

Very cool!

[fabulicious]

All I can say is if there are anymore forum voyeurs out there thinking of buying a williams.STOP!
BUY THIS CAR!

I made enquiries last week and the chap came across as a top bloke. 15K on the engine and he assured me the speedo cable was always connected.

It would be sat in my garage today but only for the reasons that I'm new to the track day scene and therefore had to add in the additional cost of the trailer.

I would go as far as saying that I would trade my Williams for it but I'm too far gone with that.

[Evogone]

All I can say is if there are anymore forum voyeurs out there thinking of buying a williams.STOP!
BUY THIS CAR!

I made enquiries last week and the chap came across as a top bloke. 15K on the engine and he assured me the speedo cable was always connected.

It would be sat in my garage today but only for the reasons that I'm new to the track day scene and therefore had to add in the additional cost of the trailer.

I would go as far as saying that I would trade my Williams for it but I'm too far gone with that.

15k on a cup racer is big mileage......looks a nice car though

[16v_paddy]

It would be sat in my garage today but only for the reasons that I'm new to the track day scene and therefore had to add in the additional cost of the trailer.


Surely it wouldn't cost a silly amount of money/effort to make it road legal so it can be driven to track days :?:

[fabulicious]

15k on a cup racer is big mileage......looks a nice car though

ai thats another thing that had me thinking.
Let alone the startup costs but I imagine spare's come in very handy in the track and rally scene also :wink:

[fabulicious]

Surely it wouldn't cost a silly amount of money/effort to make it road legal so it can be driven to track days :?:

I've sent him an email this morning to find out about the registration documents for the car.
I could ask Northy to bring it as far as holyhead and I'd just drive it onto the ferry.



Just down the road mat!! Fancy a look at the weekend??


If you would be able to view it and give some feedback that would be great.

[northy]

The car has never been registered as far as i know.

If the car has the original Vin plate and chassis number on the turret you can get a age related plate (H)

[fabulicious]

The car has never been registered as far as i know.

If the car has the original Vin plate and chassis number on the turret you can get a age related plate (H)

Once it has ownership documents that's all that matters as far as I would be concerned. I can insure it via the chassis number if needs be temporarily. I'm only 4 miles from the port so I can arrange a transporter this end easily enough.

[fabulicious]

So been in touch with the owner and he has advised me that with a race car there are no ownership papers. All you get is a receipt when you purchase it.
For me that would have to come with a trailer which means costs go spiralling upwards.
Just a correction on the mileage recorded. It has 7K.

[Red Cloud]

So been in touch with the owner and he has advised me that with a race car there are no ownership papers. All you get is a receipt when you purchase it.
For me that would have to come with a trailer which means costs go spiralling upwards.
Just a correction on the mileage recorded. It has 7K.

Thats ideal, no DVLA / government paperwork. Its as simple as buying a loaf of bread.

[fabulicious]

Thats ideal, no DVLA / government paperwork. Its as simple as buying a loaf of bread.

true,
unless that is your going through customs and excise barriers in which case unless it's a delorean, the 4 wheels need to be off the ground!

[cliokiz]

Very nice.

Valver manifold though?

Bet you'd love those wheels Mat.

[Trackcar2]

Enquired about this it has a 1.8 16v 130bhp engine in, does anyone know if this is the correct engine for the car?

[16v_paddy]

Enquired about this it has a 1.8 16v 130bhp engine in, does anyone know if this is the correct engine for the car?

It's the correct engine for the cup cars, none of that 2 litre bullshit for proper race cars :P
They're actually 137bhp out the box but it should have the ecu with the cup map on so will be closer to the 150bhp mark assuming it has the ecu the cup cars are supposed to have

[fabulicious]

I know feck all about these but I believe this one has a custom exhaust and the shocks are not original decarbon not that you would want them to be after 17 years!

But here's a couple of thought's, three actually :-)

Do you ever get your money back on a race car?
Would it not be cheaper to build one yourself?
And are people buying them for nostalgia or what?

[stevie_b]

Would it not be cheaper to build one yourself?


Unless you have a load of parts to carry over from another track car or are happy to source it all second hand then a track car rarely costs as much to buy second hand as the sum of its parts - costs of the bits and time spent racks up quickly. That said valvers are pretty cheap these days and you wouldn't need to spend that much on one (cage, seat and harness and that's about it - the brakes, transmission and engine are all standard valver) to turn it into something similar. If you built one yourself it would never be an ex-Cup car though - there has got to be an additional value for the fact that you could look up the results from the day, maybe see some pictures of it or TV footage, etc. If I were to buy it I'd have to get all the stickers remade to turn it back into the look it had back then - I think that is what is shown in one of the pictures but those stickers have since been removed to replace with his own advertising, etc.

[Red Cloud]

I know feck all about these but I believe this one has a custom exhaust and the shocks are not original decarbon not that you would want them to be after 17 years!

But here's a couple of thought's, three actually :-)

Do you ever get your money back on a race car?
Would it not be cheaper to build one yourself?
And are people buying them for nostalgia or what?

Unless you want the 'history' that goes with it, its just a stripped out valver with a non structural cage in it for safety. Ideally you want a cage to touch the front struts to add strength to the shell. They dont in cup race cars.

You could build something better for the same money with a shell, a welded in cage and a 2 litre engine. But it wouldnt have any history. Most of the performance these cars have simply come from the fact they can run slicks because they have a cage. Probably worth seconds a lap over a similar non-slick shod car.

So yes, really the only reason to buy a cup car is because it has a history with it.

You wont get your money back no, because i dont think they are worth the 3 grand its selling for. I mean if you were going to break it you would get maybe 350 quid for the enfgine and ecu and the wheels would sell. And possibly the cage, but its not a good cage.

After that, its just bog standard renault stuff that everyone chucks away.

My opinion is its worth a couple of grand if its got lots of spares with it.

Oh and it will almost certainly have crashed or rolled. They all have.

[Red Cloud]

Just to add, nothing wrong with it being crashed, most race cars have, you have to check its been repaired properly though.

[fabulicious]

That's perfect gents..thanks for the feedback.

[RB23]

As a sum of the parts there is nothing particularly special about the Cups, but they are a proper racing car and not a converted road car, they are reasonably quick on the circuit and its nice to own a little bit of history.
Yes they will have been damaged but they will also have been dry stored and never been out in the salt and muck of a British winter so corrosion is generally not a problem.

[northy]

if i sold mine i would want alot more than 3k for it!

I think for what your getting its a bargin.

To find a two owner racing car with the last owner 17years is unheard of. I hope to have mine that long! Its a shame he is selling at all - if he still has it when we next do a trackday i have already sent him a invite.

A quick clean up and some new stickers is all it needs. I just hope that someone doesnt buy it - fit a 2ltr and wilwoods. That would be a real shame!!!

[Jamie Summers]

Being new to the world of Clio Cups I can't comment a great deal on values, though I obviously know what I paid for mine !!!
For what it's worth, Mark Fish (who is currently fettling my car for next season) says that the value of the Mk1 Cups is actually starting to go up, as they become eligible for more and more race series. They seem to be a pretty good bang for buck option - cheap to buy and cheap to fix, whilst offering a decent handling package and not lacking a turn of speed.

Sorry Northy, I'm sticking Wilwoods on mine ! (In my defence we will be doing 45 minute races, so the extra braking capacity will be welcome, and hopefully what we lack on the straights we can make up on the brakes and through the twisties). We'll resist the 2 litre pot for now and will see how we get on with our blueprinted and carbed 1.8.

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to get a Cup road registered these days ........ My car was registered back in 1996/7 and shows as a Clio 16v on the V5 (though I have the necessary documentary evidence from Renault to show it is a genuine Cup Car). The car would need very little in terms of modification to make it legal - all the lights and switchgear etc are present, but the paperwork might be a different story. You may have to get an SVA ???

There is clearly no fundamental difference between a genuine factory car, and a built-up replica, and accordingly no reason why the factory car should command a premium .......... but it will !

History and provenance matter to some, not to others..... so long as it matters to someone, then factory race cars made by any manufacturer will continue to attract interest.

Jamie

[Red Cloud]

Amazing how everyone thinks their car / house / garden shed full of shit is always going up in value.

Lets look at the facts. Inflation is running at circa 5%. I wont add in wage deflation, but i dont see many people getting pay rises right now.

So if you bought a cup race car in 2005 for 3.5k this is how it would work out

2005 - 3500
2006 - 3675 (this is the price you would need to sell for to break even)
2007 - 3858.75
2008 - 4051.68
2009 - 4254.26
2010 - 4466.97
2011 - 4690.3
2012 - 4924.82

So you would need to sell you cup race car for 5 k now, if you wanted to get 'the same money' for it as you paid in 2005 if you bought it for 3500.

The fact is that these cars have effectively almost halved in value in 10 years if you take into account inflation and wage deflation.

If you price the cars in gold, they have devalued to the point of being almost worthless.

[Jamie Summers]

You make a reasonable point - no great surprise, but cars are generally depreciating assets .....

They do not tend to obey the normal rules of investment as they are emotional purchases (I'm excluding day to day stuff here .......)

If you buy a car of any type expecting to make money (unless you are a car dealer !!!) then that is a dangerous expectation. You may be lucky, but chances are if you add up all of the running costs, including financing and inflation - essentially the opportunity costs of ownership, you are still likely to lose money.

We buy fun cars because they are fun, and people will pay more money for cars that are more fun or have interesting history - if you sell for more than you purchased for, then you have had a bonus, but don't think it means you have made money !

Agreed, a £3k car today is a significantly cheaper car than a £3k car was in 2005.

[A&P]

I have been offered a hell of a lot more for mine and turned it down , these cars same as any other are only worth what people are willing to pay for them and should not be bought to make money but to be used as intended in competition or track use. The fact is there is no money around generally so first things to suffer are these type of cars , but for me that car is a great buy for someone. Thanks ANDREW.

[fabulicious]

Yep, I dont think either that you can apply the general rules of economics to items of this nature. Of course nobody wants to be ripped off but in my view if that car is as straight as he says it is then 3K is a bargain all day long.

In my mind it's not an impulse buy like going into a showroom and picking a new plate car in which case between leasing costs and depreciation you'll loose 3 grand overnight dependant on vehicle of course.

The only thing holding me back is the extra's that lets face it are gonna be needed if you want to run this on track days. Extra sets of wheels don't mean nothing to me as god knows how old the rubber is on them anyhow.

It's a really tough market out there for everyone at the moment. Disposable cash is hard to come by. Personally speaking buying one of these now is very much a self-indulgent affair.(and that is meant with the utmost sincerity).

[Red Cloud]

If it was a bargain, it would have sold as soon as it went on pistonheads.

If it was up for £5 would it have sold already - YES, obviously. So its not that people dont want it, it is that the price is too high.

That sounds like economics to me.

[fabulicious]

If it was a bargain, it would have sold as soon as it went on pistonheads.

If it was up for £5 would it have sold already - YES, obviously. So its not that people dont want it, it is that the price is too high.

That sounds like economics to me.

That sounds like utter shite to me!
It's a niche market car so your logic is screwed up.

Probably the main reason it has not sold already is the time of the year.

[Red Cloud]

You can dismiss the 'logic' but it is based on reality.

If that car was for sale at £5 i would have bought it. That is a fact. I am sure there are many people on here that would likewise have bought it if it was considerably cheaper.

The reason i havnt bought it because its not worth 3.2 k to me. In other words, the price is too high.

The fact that its not been 'snapped up' is just a reflection on the fact that lots of people who would normally buy such a car feel the same way. Its too expensive so they arnt interested.

Your statement that it is a niche car is counterproductive, because logically what you are saying is there are fewer people interested in buying it. That drops the price not raises it.

[fabulicious]

I mean if you were going to break it you would get maybe 350 quid for the enfgine and ecu and the wheels would sell. And possibly the cage, but its not a good cage.

After that, its just bog standard renault stuff that everyone chucks away.

My opinion is its worth a couple of grand if its got lots of spares with it.



So in reality to quote your own words the car is worth more than £5?

So as you try to wiggle your way out of a this discussion with pathetic logic, the facts of the matter are that I would happily pay the asking price for this car. And as discussed with interested parties beyond this discussion, if the car is not sold before the new year I will be in touch with the owner.

How is "niche" being counter-productive? A friggin ferrari, aston martin flippin lambo are all niche market cars. Do they sell cheaper? NO!

Of course with you Rob other peoples opinions and or facts do not matter if they contradict with your own. You are a shameful type of human being and really a massive detriment to this community forum.
I genuinely thought with jon gone you would change your ways and grow up. How wrong I was.

You should be ashamed of yourself for destroying the spirit that these lads have and really it shows because you cannot build any yourself.

[Red Cloud]

Why should i be ashamed on myself? Its a discussion forum and i am discussing an issue relevant to the topic.

Maybe you should take a step back and stop getting emotional?

Of course if you want to just wade in and buy an overpriced car, be my guest. Its not my money.

[MatBrown]

You can dismiss the 'logic' but it is based on reality.

If that car was for sale at £5 i would have bought it. That is a fact. I am sure there are many people on here that would likewise have bought it if it was considerably cheaper.

The reason i havnt bought it because its not worth 3.2 k to me. In other words, the price is too high.

The fact that its not been 'snapped up' is just a reflection on the fact that lots of people who would normally buy such a car feel the same way. Its too expensive so they arnt interested.

Your statement that it is a niche car is counterproductive, because logically what you are saying is there are fewer people interested in buying it. That drops the price not raises it.

But what if you didn't already own one?
I know for a fact if i didn't already have one sitting in the garage i would have gone and got this the day i saw it, the fact that i'm still contemplating it is something else!

[Red Cloud]

You can dismiss the 'logic' but it is based on reality.

If that car was for sale at £5 i would have bought it. That is a fact. I am sure there are many people on here that would likewise have bought it if it was considerably cheaper.

The reason i havnt bought it because its not worth 3.2 k to me. In other words, the price is too high.

The fact that its not been 'snapped up' is just a reflection on the fact that lots of people who would normally buy such a car feel the same way. Its too expensive so they arnt interested.

Your statement that it is a niche car is counterproductive, because logically what you are saying is there are fewer people interested in buying it. That drops the price not raises it.


I know for a fact if i didn't already have one sitting in the garage i would have gone and got this the day i saw it, ....

But you didnt, so we still dont know what its 'worth' do we? :lol:

[RB23]

Everyone who owns a Cup recommends it… that must say something. :wink:

[Red Cloud]

Everyone who owns a Cup recommends it… that must say something. :wink:

So why dont you buy it?

[Red Cloud]

Anyway maybe i do want to buy it, last time something came up i wanted to buy i posted bad things about the guy (along with stan) until i had secured it :lol:

Posting as David Harrison back then, lol, oh and richard card

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=0020&start=40

Happy days

[MatBrown]

It's close enough for you.

[MG1980]

Bloody hell RedCloud, you are one miserable fecker. I was encouraged to buy my Mk1 (Willy not Cup) because of the spirit and enthusiasm for the marque on this site. I've only had it a few weeks. I love it! Your chat makes me want to hang myself!

[theweekendhaslanded]

FFS will someone buy this fecking Clio Cup!

[Red Cloud]

Bloody hell RedCloud, you are one miserable fecker. I was encouraged to buy my Mk1 (Willy not Cup) because of the spirit and enthusiasm for the marque on this site. I've only had it a few weeks. I love it! Your chat makes me want to hang myself!

Well i have more ethusiasm than most on here for a start. I was the original person to write to sir Frank Williams and ask what happened to 0001, while everyone else was chinese whispering it had been written off.

Got the letter framed in my house.

So hold back on the enthusiasm jibe buddy.

If you look at the members posts i also still have one of the top post counts depite being banned over 5 years ago. If you add the posts i make incognito, i would be easily the all time king of the universe.

[MG1980]

Bloody hell RedCloud, you are one miserable fecker. I was encouraged to buy my Mk1 (Willy not Cup) because of the spirit and enthusiasm for the marque on this site. I've only had it a few weeks. I love it! Your chat makes me want to hang myself!

Well i have more ethusiasm than most on here for a start. I was the original person to write to sir Frank Williams and ask what happened to 0001, while everyone else was chinese whispering it had been written off.

Got the letter framed in my house.

So hold back on the enthusiasm jibe buddy.

If you look at the members posts i also still have one of the top post counts depite being banned over 5 years ago. If you add the posts i make incognito, i would be easily the all time king of the universe.

Listen pal, I don't mind an opinion myself, but as you said the economy et al is buggered anyway, so a bit of positivity if you please sir!

[Red Cloud]

Look, i said it was a nice car, but i dont agree its worth 3.2k. Thats not being negative, it is being positive, because if we all agree its not worth the money, guess what. The guy will lower his price when no one buys it and someone gets a cheaper car.

[MG1980]

I'm only chipping in because TV is rubbish!

[fabulicious]

Why should i be ashamed on myself? Its a discussion forum and i am discussing an issue relevant to the topic.

Maybe you should take a step back and stop getting emotional?

Of course if you want to just wade in and buy an overpriced car, be my guest. Its not my money.

The owner is entitled to ask whatever he wants for the car. If you cannot afford it or dont like the price leave it. Just because you cannot afford it doesnt mean you you have to spoil it for everyone else. I was genuinely asking questions to get some other's feedback/opinions on the buying of a cup racer and you had to throw in your distorted reasoning.
Then the issue became you.

Claiming to have written to Frank Williams and having a high post count doesnt mean you have the right to join a discussion forum and poison it with illiterate comments and ill reasoning. In fact your tarnishing his name and legacy with the car, with your shite. Do yourself a big favour and go back to your failure of a site and stay there.

Emotional? You better hope our paths don't cross in the real world. You have no idea who your dealing with.

[2 live]

lol@ all this.

i must admit rob does kind of have a point. i also think its too dear.

for that money, you could get a 1/2 decent williams, which is more fun for more of the time. and even when poorly driven and on road tyres they can be within seconds of the lap times of these cars. eh rob?? still not replied to that 1 did u?? maybe cos it showed you were talking shit as per usual. but can also be uded as a daily hack anf have fun on the b roads with.

they are a bit of an extravagance, but id rather have a car i can have fun in any time i wanted, than just once every so often. and 1 that needs a tow car is a no no for me tbh.

as for the history. its only really worth anything if its a championship winning car, not just i. its tintops class or whatever it runs in, but the original clio cup championship. now thats history. an also ran doesnt make the same waves

[Red Cloud]

lol@ all this.

i must admit rob does kind of have a point. i also think its too dear.

for that money, you could get a 1/2 decent williams, which is more fun for more of the time. and even when poorly driven and on road tyres they can be within seconds of the lap times of these cars. eh rob?? still not replied to that 1 did u?? maybe cos it showed you were talking s**t as per usual. but can also be uded as a daily hack anf have fun on the b roads with.

they are a bit of an extravagance, but id rather have a car i can have fun in any time i wanted, than just once every so often. and 1 that needs a tow car is a no no for me tbh.

as for the history. its only really worth anything if its a championship winning car, not just i. its tintops class or whatever it runs in, but the original clio cup championship. now thats history. an also ran doesnt make the same waves

Nah i agree with most of what you are saying. The idea of a track day is to have fun not to set lap times. Driving there and driving home is also more convenient.

Having owned two pretty hard core rally cars for almost 5 years and driving them, i can say a standard williams is much more fun and would alway be my preference to get from A to B, even on a B road blast on a sunny sunday afternoon.

[fabulicious]

2 Live you find me a half decent Williams in the UK without RUST (and never been treated for rust) and you'll have 5 grand. That's what they go for on the continent and I see no reason why they cannot be priced equally in the UK other than the fact that rust and boy racers molesting them have tarnished their image.
You'll never appreciate a Williams (or any other car) to it's fullest extent on any public road. A to Z!
Thats why for 3 grand the way I see it you will experience the MK1 to it's fullest potential. And thats worth more than any road going Williams in my book.

I see your point on the history thing but I really do think that when looking at classics or future variants of them you gotta look outside the box.
The Williams in it's era was not a Rally championship winning car. Or have I got my facts wrong?
There are so many better and faster cars out there than clio's. The fact that 50% of renault sport cars are sold to Great Britain is astonishing. Not even the French buy as many and they are built there!

If I was to turn back the clock 6 years I would NEVER EVER buy another Williams,especially from the UK. Give me a race car any day of the week before it.

[Red Cloud]

2 Live you find me a half decent Williams in the UK without RUST (and never been treated for rust) and you'll have 5 grand. That's what they go for on the continent and I see no reason why they cannot be priced equally in the UK other than the fact that rust and boy racers molesting them have tarnished their image.
You'll never appreciate a Williams (or any other car) to it's fullest extent on any public road. A to Z!
Thats why for 3 grand the way I see it you will experience the MK1 to it's fullest potential. And thats worth more than any road going Williams in my book.

I see your point on the history thing but I really do think that when looking at classics or future variants of them you gotta look outside the box.
The Williams in it's era was not a Rally championship winning car. Or have I got my facts wrong?
There are so many better and faster cars out there than clio's. The fact that 50% of renault sport cars are sold to Great Britain is astonishing. Not even the French buy as many and they are built there!

If I was to turn back the clock 6 years I would NEVER EVER buy another Williams,especially from the UK. Give me a race car any day of the week before it.

This government is borrowing near enough 200 billion pounds a month to prop up this country at the moment. When this stops (and it will), there are going to be a lot of people who have to sell lots of things very cheaply to survive.

Europe is in an even worse state

Save up, its going to be a turkey shoot with M16s for those with spare cash and no debt.

[2 live]

2 Live you find me a half decent Williams in the UK without RUST (and never been treated for rust) and you'll have 5 grand. That's what they go for on the continent and I see no reason why they cannot be priced equally in the UK other than the fact that rust and boy racers molesting them have tarnished their image.
You'll never appreciate a Williams (or any other car) to it's fullest extent on any public road. A to Z!
Thats why for 3 grand the way I see it you will experience the MK1 to it's fullest potential. And thats worth more than any road going Williams in my book.

I see your point on the history thing but I really do think that when looking at classics or future variants of them you gotta look outside the box.
The Williams in it's era was not a Rally championship winning car. Or have I got my facts wrong?
There are so many better and faster cars out there than clio's. The fact that 50% of renault sport cars are sold to Great Britain is astonishing. Not even the French buy as many and they are built there!

If I was to turn back the clock 6 years I would NEVER EVER buy another Williams,especially from the UK. Give me a race car any day of the week before it.



lol. your missing the point entirely. what your saying is a proper mint example, i.e with no rust and no repairs is only 1/2 decent and worth 5 grand?? make your mind up. like i said a HALF decent car, i.e. one thats that rough its needed thousands spent on bodywork to make it look clean, or a totally original bodywork car with minor rust spots can be had for same money, can be used every day, possesses the ability to give u a hooooooj grin every time you drive it, can stay with the cup cars on track and not have to have a trailer to get it there/back is a much better buy. unless of course its a championship winning car which will have the best history behind it.

you then go on to say youd have a track car any day of the week, but are then put off buying the 1 in question cos of trailer etc n asking is it viable to put it on the road?? all a bit hypocritical to me tbh.


and btw, iv had much much more fun in my cars on the road than i have on track. even just the change or condition of surface throws up unexpected traits from any car. like at a track you know your getting nice smooth tarmac. a spirited drive o. the road really keeps u on your toes and concentration levels up. its like comparing a wrc driver to an f1 driver. the wrc driver is a better driver in my books simply because he can cope with lots more variables.

[fabulicious]

lol. your missing the point entirely. what your saying is a proper mint example, i.e with no rust and no repairs is only 1/2 decent and worth 5 grand?? make your mind up. like i said a HALF decent car, i.e. one thats that rough its needed thousands spent on bodywork to make it look clean, or a totally original bodywork car with minor rust spots can be had for same money, can be used every day, possesses the ability to give u a hooooooj grin every time you drive it, can stay with the cup cars on track and not have to have a trailer to get it there/back is a much better buy. unless of course its a championship winning car which will have the best history behind it.

you then go on to say youd have a track car any day of the week, but are then put off buying the 1 in question cos of trailer etc n asking is it viable to put it on the road?? all a bit hypocritical to me tbh.


and btw, iv had much much more fun in my cars on the road than i have on track. even just the change or condition of surface throws up unexpected traits from any car. like at a track you know your getting nice smooth tarmac. a spirited drive o. the road really keeps u on your toes and concentration levels up. its like comparing a wrc driver to an f1 driver. the wrc driver is a better driver in my books simply because he can cope with lots more variables.

This is one of those times I do not get what your saying.

[fabulicious]

lol. your missing the point entirely. what your saying is a proper mint example, i.e with no rust and no repairs is only 1/2 decent and worth 5 grand?? make your mind up. like i said a HALF decent car, i.e. one thats that rough its needed thousands spent on bodywork to make it look clean, or a totally original bodywork car with minor rust spots can be had for same money, can be used every day, possesses the ability to give u a hooooooj grin every time you drive it, can stay with the cup cars on track and not have to have a trailer to get it there/back is a much better buy. unless of course its a championship winning car which will have the best history behind it.

Did I sat mint example? I thought we had already determined there is no such thing as a "mint" car from another discussion? Just to clarify when I said without rust and never been treated for rust it needn't be showroom condition. The way I see it any car williams that needs filling in or paintwork is not worth buying at this time.[/quote]




you then go on to say youd have a track car any day of the week, but are then put off buying the 1 in question cos of trailer etc n asking is it viable to put it on the road?? all a bit hypocritical to me tbh.

If I was to turn back the clock 6 years I would NEVER EVER buy another Williams,especially from the UK. Give me a race car any day of the week before it.[/quote]


and btw, iv had much much more fun in my cars on the road than i have on track. even just the change or condition of surface throws up unexpected traits from any car. like at a track you know your getting nice smooth tarmac. a spirited drive o. the road really keeps u on your toes and concentration levels up. its like comparing a wrc driver to an f1 driver. the wrc driver is a better driver in my books simply because he can cope with lots more variables.[/quote]
and you base this assumption on what? your books?

and 2live do us a favour go back and read the entire thread before making further assumptions. they are the mother of all ****ups.

[Red Cloud]

There is not such thing as a williams with no rust or never been treated for rust. 0001 had surface rust on both subframe and rear torsion bar and that had been kept inside all its life.

Stop saying you want a rust free example, there is no such thing on a 20 year old car.

[Red Cloud]

Oh and anyone who disagrees with the above, i want a picture of the torsion bar beam and the subframe around the radiator area to prove me wrong before i will accept it. :wink:

[fabulicious]

And just for you Rob, "any williams that needs filling in or paint work"
I take it you have the intellect and experience from that to understand I am referring to body panels and not suspension components.

[Red Cloud]

And just for you Rob, "any williams that needs filling in or paint work"
I take it you have the intellect and experience from that to understand I am referring to body panels and not suspension components.

Rust is rust, if its on the car it is not rust free.

As for filler, i take it you have never been toa car factory. There is a guy at the end of the production line who filss the dents and sprays panels damaged during assembly. They all have had paint.

[2 live]

lol. your missing the point entirely. what your saying is a proper mint example, i.e with no rust and no repairs is only 1/2 decent and worth 5 grand?? make your mind up. like i said a HALF decent car, i.e. one thats that rough its needed thousands spent on bodywork to make it look clean, or a totally original bodywork car with minor rust spots can be had for same money, can be used every day, possesses the ability to give u a hooooooj grin every time you drive it, can stay with the cup cars on track and not have to have a trailer to get it there/back is a much better buy. unless of course its a championship winning car which will have the best history behind it.

Did I sat mint example? I thought we had already determined there is no such thing as a "mint" car from another discussion? Just to clarify when I said without rust and never been treated for rust it needn't be showroom condition. The way I see it any car williams that needs filling in or paintwork is not worth buying at this time.


no. we determined, or rather you did, that mint is a term used in coin making. as it always has been. a man with your intellect, i would have thought you knew this. all williams' will need work. personally id say 1 that doesnt, and is 100% genuine, i.e has never seen a bodyshop since leaving the factory, is mint. i.e exactly as it left the factory. its a term borrowed from the manufacture of coins to best describe condition. its not only used in car terms. its kind of a standard term used for condition . a car without rust, only faded paint will make it unlike a showroom example. which can be corrected most of the time making it showroom.




you then go on to say youd have a track car any day of the week, but are then put off buying the 1 in question cos of trailer etc n asking is it viable to put it on the road?? all a bit hypocritical to me tbh.

If I was to turn back the clock 6 years I would NEVER EVER buy another Williams,especially from the UK. Give me a race car any day of the week before it.[/quote]


hindsight is a wonderful thing.


and btw, iv had much much more fun in my cars on the road than i have on track. even just the change or condition of surface throws up unexpected traits from any car. like at a track you know your getting nice smooth tarmac. a spirited drive o. the road really keeps u on your toes and concentration levels up. its like comparing a wrc driver to an f1 driver. the wrc driver is a better driver in my books simply because he can cope with lots more variables.[/quote]
and you base this assumption on what? your books?


i base my thoughts on fact. i have had much more fun in my cars on the road than i have on track. yes iv had fun on track, but iv also driven them on the road a hell of a lot more, which has resulted in much more fun being had.

imo a driver who can drive flat out, at similar speeds but on changing surfaces, undulating surfaces, loose surfaces, no matter what and can see tarmac, gravel, sand etc in 1 stage on the same tyres,is a better driver than one who does it on a perfectly smooth, unchanging track

and 2live do us a favour go back and read the entire thread before making further assumptions. they are the mother of all ****ups.[/quote]

lol. your right, assumption is the mother of all ****ups. i assumed you knew what you were on about as like rob says, there is NO SUCH THING as a rust free williams. end of.

[northy]

:roll: fab i would give up!

RUST A rust free bodied williams is rare. I have seen a few that i would love to own but that will not happen with the budget i have. However 2011 has seen alot of original cars come out of the woodwork - so watch this space. Totally rust free including fasteners and fixings - i wouldnt worry about being so pickey - finding one that hasnt got the rust bug rust is very very rare now a days. Restored cars are just as valuable as a unrestored car to some people. Some people want that, some people enjoy the build, some people want the original paint, Each to their own.

CUP CARS & TRACKDAYS: With real mens tyres & trailer
For me driving my non legal cup car 3 / 5 times a year is a treat. I wouldnt want it on the road. I enjoy it for what it is. For what it means to me. Why comment and take that away from people. If they enjoy it then fine. Let them enjoy their car their way.

I know your views on Trailering cars to trackdays, but what does it matter? The only difference to me is most only get to pass it on the way home :winkey:

And as for owning championship winning cars from 1991, 92, 93, 94 & 95 - forget it. I havent seen one car from the original cup series that was a champion car. They would of fetched a higher premium than all the other cars due to what its done. There are loads of cars out there still racing todate. Finding them is the hard part.

My car would of been long since ruined / modifed / killed / reshelled if it wasnt for its lucky escape in my eyes. To remain more aless as it did in 1993 is just as good as this one thats come up with the last owner for 17years. They dont come much better than that!

And as for a williams keeping up with a cup car - forget it. Mod for mod now thats a different matter. But yet there hasnt been one i have had the pleasure to lap with.

I have been saying for years - forget your ££££ engine builds, stick some sticky rubber on and go have fun. Each to their own though. You have to change your driving style to what you have. Everyone who has been in mine is suprised by it. Some dont like cages, some do.

Driving Jesus's 172 around Oulton was unreal. Very impressive in all weather conditions. It made mine feel slow, lapped quicker and was more fun at the time due to it moving around where mine is pin point accurate or your off - I really enjoyed being with the car for a day. Shame we didnt trailer it their but hey ho = Still love mine though for what it is :wink:

Fast A / B road driving for me has long since gone. My license is too important for loosing, I keep my speed for the track.

Driving quick on track and understanding whats going on takes time. I can lap quick but no where near as quick as a professional racing driver!!!

[northy]

If you look at the members posts i also still have one of the top post counts depite being banned over 5 years ago. If you add the posts i make incognito, i would be easily the all time king of the universe.

:-({|=

Posts dont make prizes :winkey:

Only yourself to blame.

[northy]

Look, i said it was a nice car, but i dont agree its worth 3.2k. Thats not being negative, it is being positive, because if we all agree its not worth the money, guess what. The guy will lower his price when no one buys it and someone gets a cheaper car.

wont happen - he will keep it and join us next year for our club trackday.

Then i can get all excited :notworthy:

[Red Cloud]

And as for a williams keeping up with a cup car - forget it.

Pretty sure Martins car here was standard bar the strippage. Mod for mod thats equal to a cup racer, and he is clearly faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihOqDKNjbzc

:wink:

[TooSkive]

Great vid... but the Cup race car does have a "novice" sticker on it.

[Red Cloud]

You are right

[northy]

And as for a williams keeping up with a cup car - forget it.

Pretty sure Martins car here was standard bar the strippage. Mod for mod thats equal to a cup racer, and he is clearly faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihOqDKNjbzc

:wink:

No winks just yet: Read the next sentance to your quote Robert Barrington :roll: :roll:



And as for a williams keeping up with a cup car - forget it. Mod for mod now thats a different matter.


A standard 2.0ltr williams wont be able to match a offical 1.8ltr cup racer.

[2 live]

with slicks and neg camber, itd batter it.

[2 live]

and still be able to drive there/back with a change of tyres. mod for mod as u say.

works both ways

[TooSkive]

with slicks and neg camber, itd batter it.

On standard suspension? It would still be slower and it would probably tip over.

[northy]

Thats what im saying. As yet i havent lapped with a williams that is running mod for mod with a cup car.

So that means - Slicks, Camber, Cage & Modified suspension only. A williams should be quicker. But then it comes down to what you have, want, drive like etc.

To cut a long story short - A genuine cup car will be faster and more fun than a standard williams with more power.

A well driven stripped 172 with sticky rubber is more of a match for a standard cup car - depending upon the circuit.

Yes i could drive mine there and back - but at my own preference: I WANT TO TRAILER IT.

[Red Cloud]

You are right

This post originally said 'but but but :wink: '

[Red Cloud]

Thats what im saying. As yet i havent lapped with a williams that is running mod for mod with a cup car.

So that means - Slicks, Camber, Cage & Modified suspension only. A williams should be quicker. But then it comes down to what you have, want, drive like etc.

To cut a long story short - A genuine cup car will be faster and more fun than a standard williams with more power.

A well driven stripped 172 with sticky rubber is more of a match for a standard cup car - depending upon the circuit.

Yes i could drive mine there and back - but at my own preference: I WANT TO TRAILER IT.

Lets not go off topic and turn this into a discussion on cup versus williams, they both have their merits. I like your cup race car Northy, i am glad you got it and keep it standard, it is nice to see a bit of history.

If you are into history and are particularly anal (like both you and me and mat brown) then the car is probably worth 3.2k. Remember i bought a rally car just so i could have the 0020 number. So i am not one to talk about wasting money on these cars.

However, from a purely non-historically, non-anal point of view, i dont see that a 20 year old stripped valver is worth 3.2k.

So if your just buying it to go fast and show off on track, i wouldnt buy it. If you are going to polish it and spend more time cleaning it than driving it, then it might be something you could justify spending the money on.

Incidently, did your cup car come from Norfolk Northy?

[northy]

However, from a purely non-historically, non-anal point of view, i dont see that a 20 year old stripped valver is worth 3.2k.


Its not a stripped valver though is it, its a genuine cup racer free from modifications and reshells. Running all the trick bits.

If anything this car is rarer than mine as it has the 1994 / 1995 upgrades on the suspension. I have never seen this before for sale or fitted to a car. All the ones i have seen have been running the Decarbons.

A stripped valver thats another matter - but if it had all the cup equipment on it is worth more money. These parts are very rare and still top level equipment.




So if your just buying it to go fast and show off on track, i wouldnt buy it. If you are going to polish it and spend more time cleaning it than driving it, then it might be something you could justify spending the money on.


Thats right for the money you can do better if thats what you wanted. But then thats your decision as a buyer to make.

My car was imported from Ireland by Teamthink, then move to Southport, then to Norfolk. My car was one of 3 that went to Monaco in 91 to compete in the Eurocup. It has a great history. I appreciate your comments. 8)

0020 - i know you bought it for the number. Thats why i told you first that i had found it for you. Pull the dash out and fit it to a different shell is easy - instant better car.
You know whats involved in restoring these cars, your example has had thousands and thousands spent, even going to the point of making it better than it was when it left the factory. But to other people (in their eyes) it makes it only worth 2k tops. But am i right to say that. NO! You would want a hell of a lot more than that due to what it is to you.

I think £3250 for the car is a very good price, just like strollers cup was. I would of bought it if i didnt have one.

[Red Cloud]

Ok lets list the cup equipment:

NonPAS idle pulley - easy to replicate for 15 quid, and vovlo bracket weighs less and saves engine bay space
1.2 steering rack - 10 quid from a scrap yard
A non structural cage - easy to get a better one now
A stainless exhaust and decat - again easy to replicate
Blue printed engine and remap - drop a williams lump in and you have a better engine
Suspension - rock hard, but nothing special about them
A seat - loads on ebay

So what exactly is this special equpiment?

[Red Cloud]

However, from a purely non-historically, non-anal point of view, i dont see that a 20 year old stripped valver is worth 3.2k.


Its not a stripped valver though is it, its a genuine cup racer free from modifications and reshells. Running all the trick bits.

If anything this car is rarer than mine as it has the 1994 / 1995 upgrades on the suspension. I have never seen this before for sale or fitted to a car. All the ones i have seen have been running the Decarbons.

A stripped valver thats another matter - but if it had all the cup equipment on it is worth more money. These parts are very rare and still top level equipment.




So if your just buying it to go fast and show off on track, i wouldnt buy it. If you are going to polish it and spend more time cleaning it than driving it, then it might be something you could justify spending the money on.


Thats right for the money you can do better if thats what you wanted. But then thats your decision as a buyer to make.

My car was imported from Ireland by Teamthink, then move to Southport, then to Norfolk. My car was one of 3 that went to Monaco in 91 to compete in the Eurocup. It has a great history. I appreciate your comments. 8)

0020 - i know you bought it for the number. Thats why i told you first that i had found it for you. Pull the dash out and fit it to a different shell is easy - instant better car.
You know whats involved in restoring these cars, your example has had thousands and thousands spent, even going to the point of making it better than it was when it left the factory. But to other people (in their eyes) it makes it only worth 2k tops. But am i right to say that. NO! You would want a hell of a lot more than that due to what it is to you.

I think £3250 for the car is a very good price, just like strollers cup was. I would of bought it if i didnt have one.

I thought it was from Norfolk, i went to look at it before you bought it. Was for sale in Kings street body shop wasnt it? That seems to ring a bell anyway. I have the original for sale pics somewhere i think

[Wobba]

Even though my Williams was only running about 167 bhp (about 215 now) at the time with more weight than it has now, and only R1R tyres, the Cup of Northy's totally left me for dead at Anglesey. Cage and slicks and heap lot more experience and I'd have a better chance :)

[northy]

shame we never swapped cars wobba - would of been good to come out with u

[Wobba]

shame we never swapped cars wobba - would of been good to come out with u

Next time pal! :D

[sk84life]

Ok lets list the cup equipment:

NonPAS idle pulley - easy to replicate for 15 quid, and vovlo bracket weighs less and saves engine bay space
1.2 steering rack - 10 quid from a scrap yard
A non structural cage - easy to get a better one now
A stainless exhaust and decat - again easy to replicate
Blue printed engine and remap - drop a williams lump in and you have a better engine
Suspension - rock hard, but nothing special about them
A seat - loads on ebay

So what exactly is this special equpiment?

Did cup cars have thicker torsion bars?

[2 live]

Even though my Williams was only running about 167 bhp (about 215 now) at the time with more weight than it has now, and only R1R tyres, the Cup of Northy's totally left me for dead at Anglesey.

learn to drive it then mate....seriously ;)

[northy]

wobba drove well all day so did everyone who went.

For most it was there first trackday

[2 live]

power is nothing without control tho.

[northy]

exactly.

Like i said earlier - jesus's 172 was unreal around Oulton. In fact it was too well planted for me - it would of been nice to work a bit harder behind the wheel.

In the wet on R888's it handled just about right for me, quick enough to be fast and passing people, but a little unsteady for me to have a play.
I did need to be reined in at one point though. Maybe a bit too much fun 8)

[samfish]

I think the cup cars make great value race cars. Yes I am biased, but they do.
Look at other race cars for around £3-4,000 - there arent many that are sorted and ready to go.
Yes you can go and buy a trackday car for £2000 maybe, but who knows what the set-up is like and how the dampers/springs will work. Who knows if they have the wrong anti roll bars on etc.
If you buy a clio cup car you can be assured that it is a tried and tested solution that will do a lap time of 'x' amount all day long. they are a perfect base.
And the Roll cages are really very good. Yes, they don't touch the front struts, but so what? They are fully FIA approved.
If they touch the front struts, what is that worth in a laptime? 0.3 seconds in the dry? Detrimental in the wet? I don't know about you, but I am probably loosing 0.3 seconds here there and everywhere when racing! :lol:

You couldn't build one for £3000 in parts alone. Blueprinted engine, Dampers, cage, brake ducts, rear beam, etc etc
If you bought a 16v off the street and stuck a cage, slick and dampers on it - I wouldn't be as fast would it.

I would buy that one on pistonheads if I didn't already have a race car, definitely.

Oh yeah, and there is the bonus of some history:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0007.jpg

[RB23]

Nice picture Sam, Mark Fish Motorsport leading with Northys car lurking in 3rd or 4th

[samfish]

Thanks.
That was the start of 1991 I think.
My Dad was right on it from the start - after doing well in the Gt Turbos, but by '92/'93 Harlow Motorsport where pouring money into their engines, and where the team to beat.

....this was '92 I think:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V1993_0009.jpg

[RB23]

Yes the first 1991 as the steel wheels are on.

There were all sorts of rumours regarding how much Harlow were spending on the engines, I don’t know how much was true but I herd really silly figures being mentioned.

[Red Cloud]

You could easily build one of these for 3000. Ive seen rot free williams shells being offered for free, the cages sell for 500 quid tops and ive sold a blue printed 1.8 engine with ecu for 250 quid. No one wants this stuff, as the people interested in it already have cup cars.

[samfish]

Ok, for whatever reason they are not worth a huge amount.
Got to be a better race car than many others I see on Pistonheads for more money - Fiesta's/Metro's etc.

But to build one would still be £3000 or close I reckon. Dampers? Rear beam with the toe out (where from?)? Brake ducts (where from?), extinguisher, seat, harness, mounts, master switch, brake pads, brake lines, bonnet/boot pins, engine mounts.... it all adds up.

A £1000 williams is going to need some money spent on it too.... worn bushes, rust etc etc.

[Red Cloud]

Brake ducts are 2 quid from B and Q, lol.

Come on after 20 years the dampers will be shot to pieces anyway. 20 year old originals are ok if you want to put it in a museum, but you would be far better off with non-original but new suspension for racing or track days.

The engine mounts are standard apart from the dogbone. Coops solid dog bone for a few quid fixes than.

Seats, harnesses and the like are cheap second hand.

Master switch is about, errrr, 15 quid from rally design.

Come on all this stuff is cheap and readily available.

As for the rear beam with toe out, i have no idea, is this actually real or one of those rumours that gets enshrined in forum law?

[samfish]

I think a good example is the Mk2 golf GTi one-make champioonship.
A front running 16v car goes for between £5500 and £7000 - and these are VERY tightly limited regs - pretty standard cars, control cam etc. You cannot even change the anti roll bars or top mounts, or remove ANY brackets from the interior.
So in theory you could build one for half that right?
Well that might be true of you just want a trackday car, but it would be midfield at best when competing..... there are loads of differences between a 'tracked' road car built with second hand bits (£250 blueprinted engine, second hand dampers, unknown gearbox) and a properly built race car - despite their specs being similar. One of the most expensive parts of motorsport is reliability, so to take a 100,000 mile road car and put it on the track is only going to cause headaches.

So I suppose it could be argued that dog of a cup car with an unknown engine and needing a rebuild is only worth £1500. But a half decent one that is well maintained and well built is a bargain at £3000.

Value of a race car - Competitiveness / Lap times / reliability / desirability / running costs - not sure what the cup cars are missing :lol:

[samfish]

Maybe you are mistaking it for a trackday car?
Value of a trackday car - whatever somebody want to pay for it

[Red Cloud]

Maybe you are mistaking it for a trackday car?
Value of a trackday car - whatever somebody want to pay for it

Maybe you shoud read the opening post. LOL. Sorry not wishing to be rude, but the guy wants a track day car.

[Red Cloud]

I meant read the thread. The guy we are discussing this with wants it for a track car.

[samfish]

Ha. Sorry, oh yeah.
But we are discussing the value of them in general, no?
It depends what you want from a trackday car too, you could do it even cheaper and not uprate any dampers or fit the slicks

Maybe I defend them too strongly, all that nostalgia!

We have a customer still using (racing) the original DeCarbons successfully.

[northy]

Thanks.
That was the start of 1991 I think.
My Dad was right on it from the start - after doing well in the Gt Turbos, but by '92/'93 Harlow Motorsport where pouring money into their engines, and where the team to beat.

....this was '92 I think:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V1993_0009.jpg

loving these pictures sam - nice to see on of mine from donington 91. Shame i didnt get to watch it first hand

Harlow truck i see there - what race did this damage happen then - was it simons or marks car ?

[A&P]

Lovely pics Sam, Please post more if you have them, and I still say this car is worth every penny. Shame some people want to devalue the heritage of the 16v and williams. Do you think mk2 escorts are worth the money they get? All the points made are very valid and appreciate you could build a faster better handling car for less but fact remains thats how much he wants for the car and the rest of us with tidy cup cars be they true cup cars or modified are NOT going to leave them go for less than what we think they are worth. Thanks ANDREW.

[RB23]

Sam, have you any pictures of the Yellow Cup car ran by Howard Hagen and Terry Pankhurst?

[Red Cloud]

Ha. Sorry, oh yeah.
But we are discussing the value of them in general, no?
It depends what you want from a trackday car too, you could do it even cheaper and not uprate any dampers or fit the slicks

Maybe I defend them too strongly, all that nostalgia!

We have a customer still using (racing) the original DeCarbons successfully.

Personally i like the idea of having a historic car as a toy, and 3k is a good price.

[Red Cloud]

Is that pink car Steve Quigley's?

[northy]

his is a exfish car yes Robert Barrington. There was a couple in that colour.

More pictures needed sam :wink:

[Red Cloud]

Thanks for that Richard Northrup.

[northy]

Sam - next trackday we do you and your old man can take me out for some hot laps in mine. It would be a pleasure to lone him the keys.

(Aslong as it doesnt come back looking like that pink one)

[Red Cloud]

Any other pics of white cars? Mine was a white car, i will try to find the log book as there is a pic of it before it was rolled.

[northy]

you will have a better chance of finding your car by posting up any interior shots.

[Red Cloud]

Why interior?

[Red Cloud]

Sam - next trackday we do you and your old man can take me out for some hot laps in mine. It would be a pleasure to lone him the keys.

(Aslong as it doesnt come back looking like that pink one)

Are you saying steves car is a wreck?

[northy]

:roll: grow up.

This is what makes any decent comments of yours worthless.

Interior shots are more usefull than exterior as you can spot any unique parts to identify your car.

Dashboards are a good starting point to find cars if they featured on video

[samfish]

Thanks Rich. Would love to.

Here are a couple of the busier pictures where you may see one of yours? and the yellow one? Most of the other pictures are just of the pink ones really.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0006-1.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0008.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0007-1.jpg

[A&P]

Mega Sam if that Harlow car in the last pic is Simmons car thats mine :D .

[Evogone]

Sam - next trackday we do you and your old man can take me out for some hot laps in mine. It would be a pleasure to lone him the keys.

(Aslong as it doesnt come back looking like that pink one)

Are you saying steves car is a wreck?

SpongeKnob...LOL

My car was a differnt shell and different cage, ther were quite a few pink cars (that cage was pink mines the origional colour)....... :wink:

[RB23]

Sam, have you any pictures of the Yellow Cup car ran by Howard Hagen and Terry Pankhurst?

That’s great thank you Sam, I have very few pictures of the car before I owned it, so those are really appreciated

[northy]

great pictures sam as always.

What year are these - is it 92 ???

[A&P]

Is it possible that mine , Northys , rb23 and evogones cars are in the first and second picture?

[northy]

i wish it was pal, mine isnt in those groups of pictures.

[RB23]

Its 1993.

[A&P]

Ahh lets just say it is and lets re create it someday :D

[RB23]

We should get them together, your car was Adam Simmonds Harlow car? that is in the 3rd picture with mine.

[A&P]

Thats the one , love finding out more about these cars.

[A&P]

As it is now

[Red Cloud]

Just looked through the MSA log book for my rally car and the white car is the shell i have now, However, the old V5 has the original colour on it and it was red, so i guess same as Northy's?

[samfish]

Len Simmons would like to see that picture of a car in his livery :)

Glad I can show you some pictures of cars you own! I will have another look through and share some more soon.

[Jamie Summers]

Sam,
If you can find any pics of my car that would be awesome. It's the blue one in your Dad's workshop right now !
I think we managed to spot it in the background in one of the pictures on the wall in the office ..........

thanks,

Jamie

[samfish]

Okey doke. Ill have a look Jamie. I had the task of scanning in all the pictures and magazine clippings we have - about a weeks work!
Leave it with me :)

[A&P]

May be silly question Sam but are you the same Samfish on the Golf gti forum?

[samfish]

yeah, do you have a Golf too?

I spend way too long on the internet you see :roll:

[A&P]

No dont have a golf just go on there to keep an eye on what Tony is doing to his :wink: Compete against Tony, boy is that thing quick and he is a hell of a nice guy too. Cheers ANDREW.

[samfish]

Ah nice. His engine sounds like a total beast.
Yeah, he has an interesting car. Lots of little tweaks and nice touches - not just following the cattle who just tick boxes when building cars.

Do you have a thread about your clio? I guess you have the clio model of your car that is sometimes on ebay?
I will show Mr. Simmons your picture. His GT Turbo is in the workshop at the moment, and will be on track again next year.

Here is is?
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/IMG_0058.jpg

And how it would have looked (my Dads, who was supported by them)
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/R5GT-_0018.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/R5GT-_0007-1.jpg

[A&P]

No build thread Im affraid , yes have the model of the car. Please do show him the picture that would be great 8) Tony and his car are mega quick breaking records all over the place only beat him once last year and we had a massive battle in Llys y fran hillclimb beat me on the last run as my gearbox blew up :roll: Having said that we both beat all the 4 wheel drive turbo boys in that event and Tony made top 10 run off bloody french gearbox!.

[samfish]

Hi Jamie,
Sorry, I cannot find any of yours I am afraid. Was it always that colour?

Here are a few more:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V_0009.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0003-1.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0011.jpg

ouch
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V_0001.jpg

Knockhill:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0002.jpg

[Red Cloud]

So did they lower the cars over the engine to fit them like the rally teams?

[samfish]

Nah, they had removable spaceframed front ends, with a flip front. :wink:

[Red Cloud]

Sensible answer?

[samfish]

Sorry. just re-read that, really didn't mean to sound like a sarcastic pillock.

Yeah, they where dropped down onto the engine/subframe like that, pretty sure. I was still quite young but have seen them dropped out like this a few times since - it seems quite simple on a Clio - not that I have ever done it :oops:

[stroller]

What an interesting thread. Not been on here for a while, but glad I popped back! I'm finding out more now about the cup car's after I've sold mine , than when I had it for several years!

Jamie / Sam - My old car had the same sponsors/graphics as the pic of the Mark Fish cars under the awning at Knockhill ie Renault Financial Services across the front edge of bonnet, Mintex on bonnet and the elf stickers on the wings. What year was that Sam, any idea? May assist in finding some history of it. As far as I am aware it has always been that aqua marine colour.

Northy - Decided it was time to move the car on. Id rather see a nice bloke like Jamie and his mate Will, having some fun, giving it the beans in the trackday trophy series, than letting it sit taking up space in my garage and not being used. Looking forward to seeing it in action again......

[Red Cloud]

Sorry. just re-read that, really didn't mean to sound like a sarcastic pillock.

Yeah, they where dropped down onto the engine/subframe like that, pretty sure. I was still quite young but have seen them dropped out like this a few times since - it seems quite simple on a Clio - not that I have ever done it :oops:

Cheers, seems the clio motorsport cars had an easy engine change method.

[2 live]

not really. just looks like a subframe/eng swap. would be easier for ANYONE to do it this way, not just motorsport. 6 bolts, cables,rack, water pipes. take calipers off and leave carriers on hubs. simples. if you have another built sub/eng assembly really.

[northy]

cheers Sam - some new pictures there that i havent seen

Will look forward to seeing the rest of your weeks work haha

[Red Cloud]

not really. just looks like a subframe/eng swap. would be easier for ANYONE to do it this way, not just motorsport. 6 bolts, cables,rack, water pipes. take calipers off and leave carriers on hubs. simples. if you have another built sub/eng assembly really.

Well not really as you need some way to hold the engine on the subframe. The rally cars had subframe mounts, and i believe there is a locking tool for those with top mounts like the cup cars. You also need a frame to stand it on, so you can jack around it.

If you dont care about the paintwork and dont want to do it neatly, you can just unbolt it and let it drop off, but ive changed the engine a fair few times now using this method and to do it well it quite an art.

The idea is to remove the engine so you can then work on it there and then on the frame. If you drop it on a piece of wood or the floor, you have to dismantle it to do anything with it.

Maybe your just a better mechanic than me. But then im probably a better biochemist than you, so ill give you that one.

[samfish]

hmm. Not sure of the specifics myself - not being a proper mechanic really.
He does have something that holds the Clio subframe very nicely, with wheels at one end to help moving it around under the car.... in that picture.

Rich, is there a specific racing/nostalgia place or thread I can upload some things onto? Where is best matey?
Sam

[Jamie Summers]

Hi Jamie,
Sorry, I cannot find any of yours I am afraid. Was it always that colour?

Here are a few more:

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V_0009.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0003-1.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0011.jpg

ouch
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V_0001.jpg

Knockhill:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t266/samfishy/Clio16V-_0002.jpg

Thanks Sam, I can't see the pics on my work machine, so will have a look at home this evening. To the best of my knowledge the car has always been blue, but I suspect your Dad may know more about that than I do ! I seem to remember him saying that there were two cars running in that colour, and it was a custom colour specific to the race team that ran the car (name escapes me ........)

cheers,

Jamie

[Daz4567]

Gr8 pics

[MatBrown]

This car has now been sold and collected.

[northy]

u jelious Mat?

[chip]

Some really cool pics there Sam, thanks for sharing :)

[LEIGH-ANNE]

This is one of a handful i have.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a317/leighanne21/WILLIAMS%20CLIO/LastScanedited.jpg

[2 live]

not really. just looks like a subframe/eng swap. would be easier for ANYONE to do it this way, not just motorsport. 6 bolts, cables,rack, water pipes. take calipers off and leave carriers on hubs. simples. if you have another built sub/eng assembly really.

Well not really as you need some way to hold the engine on the subframe. The rally cars had subframe mounts, and i believe there is a locking tool for those with top mounts like the cup cars. You also need a frame to stand it on, so you can jack around it.

If you dont care about the paintwork and dont want to do it neatly, you can just unbolt it and let it drop off, but ive changed the engine a fair few times now using this method and to do it well it quite an art.

The idea is to remove the engine so you can then work on it there and then on the frame. If you drop it on a piece of wood or the floor, you have to dismantle it to do anything with it.

Maybe your just a better mechanic than me. But then im probably a better biochemist than you, so ill give you that one.

with a team running multiple cars, the idea i would have thought, would be to drop the lot, eng/sub etc and replace with another. a quick turnaround would be better for them than to drop, repair, replace. you are right with the eng dropping onto the subby tho, reno had spacers, for want of a better word, that fit between the eng/sub assy, im sure these would have been used. being such an enthusiast im sure you know this already.

[MatBrown]

u jelious Mat?

Nah, don't be daft, not worth swapping from mine.

[RB23]

Did anyone on here buy it?

[MatBrown]

Mate of mine.
His GF is on C16v'r.

[Wobba]

Mate of mine.
His GF is on C16v'r.

Nice :)