Tuning Questions

[fabulicious]

I've come to realise that the williams was never born to be standard and therefore I'm thinking about applying some performance upgrade/tuning options. Nothing too wild. Something subtle.

I've got these 2 ideas floating around in my head.

1. I buy an engine and ancillaries already modified and drop it into the bay.Job done as such. Doable?

2. Go for cams, remap and some breathing mod's. Main hurdle with this approach is that I would need to travel to the UK to get a proper live remap done.
So my question here is, if I install the cams would the car be drive-able until I get the remap done?
Also, are there any drop in cams,ecu packages that are ready to go without the need for a remap? I'm not interested in benchmarking, just genuine performance gains.

[robi1000]

1.) Doable, but you will also need an ECU already mapped for this tuned engine.

2.) Depends on the cams. You could get away with it on mild cams, but not on something wild. I don't know where you're from, but why don't you map the engine locally?

[fabulicious]

I'm in Dublin Robi. Dont know any mappers here and to be honest the only one I would go to is someone that comes highly recommended by someone I know on this site.
But the mapping is not a priority at this point and time. Choosing the right parts is.
From my reading through the posts it seems avoid piper and perhaps catcams are the business?

Does anyone know if the Group N catalogue is still available?

[robi1000]

Why would you want anything from Gr.N?

You can get Gr.N cams from Catcams, but they are just stock cams with really good tolerances and FIA certificate.

The rest of the engine is pretty much stock, apart from ECU.

Only difference is the exhaust, (and suspension, cage and other non-engine related stuff).

I'd start with a good set of cams (Catcams, exact model depends on what you want). Maybe fit Gr.A scuttle induction system with ITG filter for better breathing and an exhaust manifold and rest of the exhaust system.

Buy a decent standalone ECU (or the one that is recommended by person who's going to map your car) and then enjoy the spec until you're bored and have more money and then you can upgrade to ITBs, supercharger, turbo...

[sclark2604]

Speak to KJ16v.

He can chip and map your ECU by post, although he does suggest a live map for best result, but for what you said you needed and your location this could be a good answer for you.

And he comes very recomended by alot of people on this site, i think theres a sticky somewhere in tech or guides thats worth a read.

Hope this helps.

[fabulicious]

So I should be able to install the cams myself and drive it to the mappers. Great.

In terms of the cams themselves does anyone know if they come with pullies or do you need to buy them separately or use the originals? And whilst on the subject what benefits are there for upgrading the pullies?

I'm a newb so please be gentle with me :oops: (gets out the vaseline) :lol:

[robi1000]

You have to buy pulleys seperately, but you can get them from Catcams. But don't forget to replace the bolts on the front, because bolt heads are too big and come into contact with cambelt cover. Otherwise they are good pulleys used by many people (including myself).

You need them to set cam timing, otherwise you're limited to the angle difference between two teeth on the stock pulley.

I think pulleys are about 200 pounds new (price could have changed, I bought mine few years ago).

[fabulicious]

Thanks for the feedback on this. Spent an hour going over older posts this morning and lots of feedback about.
Thinking about it, I think it would be best for me to leave it for the experts. Maybe one day I'll book it in somewhere to have it cammed and mapped all in one go.

[Wobba]

Paddy has some cams for sale, an I may have some before long :) No vernier pulleys though!

[fabulicious]

It's like a candy store this place!yum yum yum :)
I missed Lunners sale last week :(
What spec are yours Wobba and Paddy's also?

[16v_paddy]

Mine are piper 270's for an F7P so not sure what they'll do in an R tbh :?

[2 live]

as above really. mild cams will be ok. 260s will be fine, mine has run on 270s with std ecu too. (kent rn2002s and rn2003s) but not so good with the latter lol. i ran mine for quite a bit with the 260s in before i had it remapped.

the remap made a world of diff tho. helps you realise what diff a car mapped for mods vs one not makes tbh.

what you after, just a bit more poke over std, or a massive amount with possibilty of bodies etc??

first, personally id go mild cams and re-map.

latter, how deep are your pockets???? lol

[fabulicious]

as above really. mild cams will be ok. 260s will be fine, mine has run on 270s with std ecu too. (kent rn2002s and rn2003s) but not so good with the latter lol. i ran mine for quite a bit with the 260s in before i had it remapped.

the remap made a world of diff tho. helps you realise what diff a car mapped for mods vs one not makes tbh.

what you after, just a bit more poke over std, or a massive amount with possibilty of bodies etc??

first, personally id go mild cams and re-map.

latter, how deep are your pockets???? lol

:)
Yes I saw some youtube vids of 51 running cams. sounded so sweet!
after a bit more poke, higher limiter, and some extra top end if poss.
dont want more noise tho so will see about silencing the zorst a wee bit without sacrificing performance.

Not going to go nuts with super charging, turbos or anything else like that. dont hve the pockets or the technical ability.

[fabulicious]

Do you reckon re-profiling would be OK with the kents?

[chip]

To notice a difference you want to go to something along the lines of a 285 piper or similar (kent,piper and catcams all do cams for the williams)
You wont get any decent cam for the williams on a regring, they're all far too mild, they will gain you a few bhp, but not enough to justify the effort IMHO

[fabulicious]

Solid advice thanks chip.

Robi mentioned asking them to set the timing. What does this mean exactly?
Will they be as easy to set as the standard ones once delivered?

[robi1000]

You have to adjust vernier pulleys to timing spec provided by cam manufacturer (ok, you can have your own timing, but you have to know what are you doing and why).

By timing it's meant that you have to set cam lift at TDC (or at least in the ball park) and then you can play with advancing or retarding the cam with adjustable pulleys.

[fabulicious]

By timing it's meant that you have to set cam lift at TDC (or at least in the ball park) and then you can play with advancing or retarding the cam with adjustable pulleys.
This part I know how to do.

I was just wandering that when I order them will the pullies come with marks on them so I can line them up with the markings on the cam cover? Is it as simple as set them in place and leave the advance/retard bit for the mapping later on?

[robi1000]

No, sadly it's not that simple. IIRC slot on the cam where pulley fits is not placed in a way you could use timing mark on original pulley to time the engine. You need dial indicator to do that.

[chip]

You need to set the timing either by degrees for peak lift, or by lift at TDC.

[fabulicious]

ok looks like it's not something I am going to do myself. Probably be best to find someone in the northwest to fit and map in one day.
any suggestions even by pm welcome. 8)

[16v_paddy]

ok looks like it's not something I am going to do myself. Probably be best to find someone in the northwest to fit and map in one day.
any suggestions even by pm welcome. 8)

Fit the pullies yourself, just have them set at zero & timed up as normal, then get the expert to adjust them when you're getting it mapped to suit :wink:

[fabulicious]

:hug:

[TooSkive]

Concentrate on the things that will make a difference, suspension and brakes. Pointless tuning these cars unless you spend proper money.

[fabulicious]

I like that train of thought.
Been there and done that already though, 7K or there abouts.
It's not inconceivable that I will spend another 7K but for know she is on a very fresh suspension and very good brake pads and tyres. That said I always fancied a set of leda's and some four pots :)

[TooSkive]

Getting decent power out of these cars costs big money. Throttle bodies are popular, though I have no idea why, 25-30bhp for over £2000? I dont get it :? It's a decent increase, but hardly throw you into the back seat kinda stuff.

Coilovers, decent pads, brembo HC's and some R888's would cost less and you would be quicker overall than running bodies.

Depending on how good the car is bodywise, you'd be better spending it getting it concourse. Nothing you do will add value currently, but a showroom condition car is about as close to protecting the car as an investment you will get.

[fabulicious]

You make some very valid points.

The problem is getting the car concourse as you say is, how should I put it...kinda no fun. Then when you have it done your worried about all sort of stupid things like dents scratch's etc.

I'm happiest when I'm driving it. It kills me to see it sat there in the garage and not being driven. Then its not as if you can go driving around the streets like a chav either, so the only time she gets to get a decent run is on a trackday or on a long journey.

I would say that I am perhaps £1K away from having it concourse. I have deliberately left some items untouched because I want to drive the car and not display it.

[sideways danny]

i smell stromba

[fabulicious]

i smell Robert Barrington

was thinking the same :wink:

[fabulicious]

Getting back on topic, the next aim is to silence the exhaust system without having too much of an impact on flow.
A quick google tells me it is possible to use mufflers.
I'm running a standard mani with the cat attached. The rest is straight through. I might see about mani options further down the road but for now I will work with what i've got.
Anyone have any experience in this area?

[Wobba]

Also, remember with all these power increases, it takes something away from somewhere else.

With my car, back to back driving a normal Williams, yes it's MUCH faster and handles with a lot more confidence...BUT...the normal town/street driving along your avergae UK road feels brisker in the OE Williams than mine.

This is partly the roads being shit, and partly the fact the OE Willy still has its torque in the low rev range. Mines all up top. Although thre is a lot more power/torque to be had, it's more accessible in everyday driving in the standard car.

[fabulicious]

Thanks for the feedback Wobba. I see exactly where your coming from but for me town driving is out of the question.
I've only ever driven mine on fast roads or hill's. I want it more up top and more torque. :wink:
I'm not in a hurry for the suspension. Standard does the job nicely.
On the exhaust issue I've found a local chap who's going to fabricate a centre piece for me and get rid of that boomy note. SS make's a heck of a racket!

On the cams I'm thinking these
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams/www/product.php?pid=R16VBP285H

OR

2208 from catcams.
http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Renault_F7R.html

although that said the power band on the kents seem good for the willy
http://www.kentcams.com/product-details/339/Camshaft/Camshaft/RN2003-Sports-'-R-'--Suitable-for-F7R-engine/

I'm not so good at reading the specs on these so any feedback on them would be nice.

Still need to find a mapper!

[northy]

Coilovers, decent pads, brembo HC's and some R888's would cost less and you would be quicker overall than running bodies.



For once some good posting going on here.

Shame you didnt stay around at Donington for a passenger ride in my CUP car :winkey:

[fabulicious]

Well speaking of donni and the experience of the few laps I got in, I actually found it very frustrating having to change gear in areas where I really should not have to.
Now I know you cannot suit every track but you must admit a higher limiter which I think you lads run in the cups is a big help? Also I need an advantage over "slicks" Northy!
As for being a passenger..hhmm. I had a feeling the car wasnt ready but did not want to let you's down.
Enjoyed your vids though :wink:

[2 live]

as above really. mild cams will be ok. 260s will be fine, mine has run on 270s with std ecu too. (kent rn2002s and rn2003s) but not so good with the latter lol. i ran mine for quite a bit with the 260s in before i had it remapped.

the remap made a world of diff tho. helps you realise what diff a car mapped for mods vs one not makes tbh.

what you after, just a bit more poke over std, or a massive amount with possibilty of bodies etc??

first, personally id go mild cams and re-map.

latter, how deep are your pockets???? lol

:)
Yes I saw some youtube vids of 51 running cams. sounded so sweet!
after a bit more poke, higher limiter, and some extra top end if poss.
dont want more noise tho so will see about silencing the zorst a wee bit without sacrificing performance.

Not going to go nuts with super charging, turbos or anything else like that. dont hve the pockets or the technical ability.

about the only vid around of it (i think) when it was at its best. 0159 . 260 cams, kent rn2002, and mapped to suit. was perfect for round town, idled very well, pulled like a train from tickover to limiter really.

cam car is craggys saxo, no slouch at all, quicker than a williams believe it or not, only a few will remember this car, richy im lookin at you ;), apparently hed been chasing the teggy type r for a few laps.....and no.....the porka never came past me ;)


http://www.streetfire.net/video/clio-williamspassing-saxo-vts-and-teg-type-r-o_98088.htm

[2 live]

and this 1. cam car.....a seemingly respected car called 'doris' on the RTOC.??? not sure of spec etc. but he has racing gloves ;) lol

http://www.streetfire.net/video/clio-williams-on-trackoulton-park_47013.htm

like that when u open it up, like standard almost when in town. best of both worlds imho.


shame the kents are shite. catcams would be my vote, or pipers....hmmm...i have catcam verniers , so a matchin set would be nice.

[TooSkive]

All those videos prove is the standard of driving on trackdays is generally poor. A properly driven Integra would wipe the floor with a Clio.

[chip]

All those videos prove is the standard of driving on trackdays is generally poor. A properly driven Integra would wipe the floor with a Clio.

Having driven both I agree it would be faster, especially on the slow speed corners where the diff is so much use, but I wouldnt say "wipe the floor" TBH

[fabulicious]

All those videos prove is the standard of driving on trackdays is generally poor. A properly driven Integra would wipe the floor with a Clio.

And the standard of driving on public roads is generally better? :roll:

Listen, unless your still playing with a scalextric, track days are the BEST place to learn how to drive your car or bike safely within it's limits and apply it on the road if needs be.

A properly driven fookin polo would leave a williams sitting if the driver knew what he was doing.

When are you's going to grow up :?:

[TooSkive]

You seem like the kind of person who argues with himself :roll:

Back on topic. That video proves nothing of how effective the car mods are, for all we know the Integra driver only passed his test last week. Pointless comparison which serves no purpose but to massage the creators ego.

[northy]

Well speaking of donni and the experience of the few laps I got in, I actually found it very frustrating having to change gear in areas where I really should not have to.
Now I know you cannot suit every track but you must admit a higher limiter which I think you lads run in the cups is a big help? Also I need an advantage over "slicks" Northy!
As for being a passenger..hhmm. I had a feeling the car wasnt ready but did not want to let you's down.
Enjoyed your vids though :wink:

My cup car has a standard JB3 box mate. Should have given me the williams keys :winkey:

You went out for instruction - did you find that you lapped easier after?

I highly recomend instruction to any trackday goer - i take every opportunity to get out myself.

I was mega busy Fab with people all wanting to come out.

next year i am looking at doing at trackday at Mondello - is that easy for you to get too ?

[stevie_b]

Would have liked a pax in the Cup car too - next time I hope! Was glad that I managed to go out in Beaniemoo's car - that was great fun.

[fabulicious]

Well speaking of donni and the experience of the few laps I got in, I actually found it very frustrating having to change gear in areas where I really should not have to.
Now I know you cannot suit every track but you must admit a higher limiter which I think you lads run in the cups is a big help? Also I need an advantage over "slicks" Northy!
As for being a passenger..hhmm. I had a feeling the car wasnt ready but did not want to let you's down.
Enjoyed your vids though :wink:

My cup car has a standard JB3 box mate. Should have given me the williams keys :winkey:

You went out for instruction - did you find that you lapped easier after?

I highly recomend instruction to any trackday goer - i take every opportunity to get out myself.

I was mega busy Fab with people all wanting to come out.

next year i am looking at doing at trackday at Mondello - is that easy for you to get too ?

Yes instruction was very helpful. I insisted on a sighter cause I missed the morning briefing. Sadly my wheel bearing let go just on arrival so it spooked me to push hard. Had to nancy it home 300miles to holyhead :(

Mondello is only about 30 miles from Dublin mate. Once you come off the ferry in Dublin port it's a straight run. Very good facilities and there is plenty of camping ground.

And Northy if you spot a cup for sale let me know, because I do plan to get some proper track experience over the next couple of years.

Keys..Take a look here
http://www.sdfa.ie/M6/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=106
It's my bro's garage. :wink:

Thanks as ever.
Fab.

[willy_kev]

dont mean to hijack the thread but been reading ... where can you get the kent rn2002 cams from? cant find um anywhere via goodle search :/ have i missed a trick?

[A&P]

There is a really nice looking cup for sale on pistonheads Fab. Go on mate you wont regret it :D

[2 live]

You seem like the kind of person who argues with himself :roll:

Back on topic. That video proves nothing of how effective the car mods are, for all we know the Integra driver only passed his test last week. Pointless comparison which serves no purpose but to massage the creators ego.

lol. the saxo cam car, quicker than std williams pace, with a guy who can drive behind the wheel. look how easily i pass then go on to leave him. and he was giving it beans. he was also just hangin onto the back of the teg, and staying there. backing up your claim the teg is quicker than std williams. then check out how easily my mildly modded car goes past the teg also. i think thats proof enough of the difference the mods made.

[TooSkive]

LMAO, you saying the Saxo driver 'can drive' doesn't really mean much of anything.

Skip to 6:08 to witness the skillz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqTs39fRq7k

:lol:

All these videos prove is that none of these cars are being driven by anyone with any talent. Watch the cars in the video prior to you binning it, they know what they are doing.

[2 live]

lol. you saying craggy cant drive?? lmao. ok.

the gtt cam car, i suppose that guy cant drive either huh??

and anyone that loses it, or comes off track at any time cant drive either?? lol. well done rob. youv just rubbished every pro race driver in the world. vettel, loeb et all have all crashed, spun many times in their career.

you crack me up sometimes lol

[2 live]

LMAO, you saying the Saxo driver 'can drive' doesn't really mean much of anything.

Skip to 6:08 to witness the skillz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqTs39fRq7k

:lol:

All these videos prove is that none of these cars are being driven by anyone with any talent. Watch the cars in the video prior to you binning it, they know what they are doing.


and lol. your just disproving everything you stand for there. ;)


i cant drive.... but someone in a slick shod, race prepped car with less bhp can.


yet the lap times are about the same. so either

a) i can drive

b) power gives far more gain on track than handling, and according to you, ability to drive.

c) you talk absolute shite

d) all of the above.

[16v_paddy]

Option C seems most appropriate to me