197 or 172/182 engine

[walters300]

i think i have a buyer for my turbo set up so it looks like my itb dream could be around the corner, looking to do it the cheapest way though without having to rebuild an engine, thats why i an thinking a 197 as i should get a low mile one easy, they are around 180 bhp standard i beleive, if i could achieve 220 bhp with throttle bodies i would be a very happy duder, or is it too much hassle and not worth it, ie setting up vvti etc properly and getting the engine/ gearbox in, your thoughts much appreciated before i go and do something i might regret with my simples mechanical knowledge, thanks lads

[kj16v]

Blimey you given up on the turbo already?? :) Well, fitting a 197 on ITB's isn't going to be any easier than dealing with a turbo angine that's already in there...

Your gonna have to spend some money somewhere dude! Having ITBs on a completely standard engine is kinda pointless, IMO.

[Coops]

as above, n/a tuning is a mine field and waaaaaaay more expensive per bhp than boost

you'll need decent cams,pulleys headwork, possibly high comp rebuild for good reliable power. then theres the itb kit itself, linkages, shortened radiator, trumpets, filters, standalone management, fabrication of brackets etc for all the gubbins. then cams timed in and someone who knows what they are doing to map it. oh and conversion to wasted spark ignition more than likely

may just squeak 220bhp out a decent 172 engine then. as for 182/197, even more work as its all fly by wire for throttle control etc

[Coops]

technology error, f4r is already wasted spark, my bad :roll: :lol:

[walters300]

8) ah gee lads saved my arse again! Little knowledge is dangerous! Will really have to think about this as i dont want to throw silly money at this again, not as simple as i thought! Problem is my car sounds shite! Really bog standard even with a straight through back box, even cosworths have a growl? The induction noise is non existent due to the length of run maybe? How does yours sound mr coops? Is there better induction noise at 270 bhp due to higher flow? Or is it my standard head cant get the bhp through quick enough? Annoys the fk out of me to be honest.

[richy]

if you already have a turbo set up which works id stick with that imho

high power itb's set up isnt cheap and wont ever make the same power as the turbo can!

[Coops]

your worried about how it sounds? lol. surely you should worry about how it goes mate more than anything????

turbo will never sound the same as itb, but mine sounds evil, when it comes on boost all hell breaks loose, but it is on a sidey. you dont get that much induciton roar as the turbo muffles the inlet noise from the engine, along with the boost pipework, but you get an awsesome whine as the turbo spools and the recirc lets out some nice noises on overrun as it purges the boost. :twisted:

[walters300]

:oops: i have even gone and researched very hard on sound waves and how different materials/ shapes and flow patterns could be designed to replicate the itb noise, tried a couple but of blue peter bog roll and fairy liquid bottle specials and fk all! Havent given up yet though! If i can design a piece of kit that gives that noise i will have the perfect set up, power and noise, will spend this weekend with my latest and greatest cunning plan, if it works that will sway me completely, thanks guys i really appreciate the good advice.

[richy]

loud speaker with sensor on the accelerator so each time you press the pedal down a loud ITB induction road is blurted out......

[walters300]

:idea: sidey!

[walters300]

:P richy your a legend! Only have a crap philips stereo though, could get wobba and laine to make a few tapes for me,

[Laine_16v]

All this gay talk of turbos and "ptssh ptsssh" gay ass noises makes me want to vomit :wink:

[walters300]

:lol:

[Laine_16v]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcXhNiEquM4

Record that and play it on your stereo, youll be half way there :P

[walters300]

:x kills me! Thanks :( how much do you reckon i could pull this off for? I have jenvey 45mm itbs with fuel rail and tps, f4r exhaust manifold, and a haynes manual and a bag of spanners!

[Daz.]

Cams, boddies and a remap on an f4r. done.

[walters300]

:) that sounds easy! so i could avoid the stand alone bit then? :wink:

[kj16v]

:) that sounds easy! so i could avoid the stand alone bit then? :wink:

Depends, are you going to convert to a 172 wiring loom and ECU? Because the Valver ECU won't run it.

Cams, bodies and a remap on an f4r.+ shortened rad + vernier pulleys + 172 loom + 172 ECU or standalone = Much more money than you'll probably get for your turbo setup.

THEN you've got to make it all fit in your Clio. F4R isn't a straight fit into a Mk1. Much more expense and difficulty than dealing with the engine you already have. And less power too.

If you're thinking of getting rid just because it doesn't sound the way you would like, a cone filter and a 2.5" exhaust system with one straight-thru silencer will sort that.

Your choice of course. Just making you aware of what you're getting yourself into. Just seems very daft to get rid of an expensive turbo conversion just because it doesn't make as much noise as you want.

[walters300]

:wink: I think common sense has prevailed and realistically iit will cost 4-5k to get it done properly, And coops your car does sound a hell of a lot better than mine as i have just seen on you tube, will have all the bits to get it running 100% by the weekend hopefully and i can start putting your ideas into action, Thanks yet again lads :wink:

[volymmannen]

http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/23009R5.wmv

[volymmannen]

http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/23009R5.wmv

[kj16v]

http://www.mobisux.com/album/data/500/23009R5.wmv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKEHPuKt-E&feature=PlayList&p=69E282597CE0757C&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=29

Both are beautiful music to my ears :D

[Laine_16v]

unusable power much!!!

[walters300]

:D thats sounds a hell of a lot better than mine, thanks lads, itbs would be a good option and a realistic cost if i was a good mechanic and could diy it, but i definitly aint! so i will spend a few pound on a side exit and keep playing with used fairy liquid bottles, glad that one is cleared up! Should have the bits by the weekend to get it running sweet hopefully, good solid advice and thanks for the vids, legends all of you...

[Laine_16v]

Whats wrong with Andy Cutlers mapping?

[kj16v]

Think a few people have fitted the F4R now, so there's plenty of help available for it. You dont need a short rad or verniers either. Someone on CS has got theirs running perfectly on a stock ECU as well. So cheaper than you think :):)

I know, but I'm talking about doing a worthwhile job :) ITB's don't make much power by themselves - they give you the potential to make power. Fitting ITB's without headwork cams, verniers etc. means they won't reach their potential.

Don't get me wrong - I love the noise and spread of torque you can get from ITBs/carbs, but in Walters' case his car is already turbocharged. It wouldn't make sense to go to the trouble and expense of removing an engine that will make minimum 220 bhp with ease, and replace it with an engine and setup that will make maximum 220 bhp with effort.

[walters300]

220 is my mark as its quick enough for me !!! and should be reliable But i dont want to spend any more money on this car either so ptsh it is :P , I have recently seen a golf diesel they make that has a super charger and turbo. the super charger takes out the lag apparently, that would be interesting in time to come maybe? :roll:

[walters300]

so around the 200 bhp mark on a standard f4r realistically by the sounds of it. thats still very quick for just bodies, and shouldnt be expensive either, thats something i will seriously consider. mapping seems to be a huge issue too with nearly everyone i have read about having problems, maybe they only post when they have problems :?



yes tsi i think, the theory sounds good but with what your saying there wasnt much point adding the turbo when you can get very good gains from a super charger alone.

almost every possible aspect has been covered here and its amazing how much can be learned from a thread, who knows maybe another year and i can start giving advice rather than ask for it all the time :P :wink:

[Coops]

dude, why are you even entertaining an f4r conversion that may or may not get the required power, be a right ball ache to get to fit and run etc etc? you have a decent turbo lump in there already with the capability to run in excess of 400bhp as iirc its a fully forged engine isnt it? i mean its a total no brainer to me, get a decent map at 21psi on that lump any you'll never look back :P

[walters300]

8) amen! Good man ben, i will see if the lord of cash is good to me in years to come and if so i will do a light hearted standard itb job on my w3 instead, right thats that sorted out! okay time to focus on getting the car running sweet on low boost and take it from there, sorry to steal your sidey idea but it sounds the bollocks! Thanks bud ! And thanks guys for all the advice, itb will come another day!

[dunlop]

F4R's run floating pullies so dont need verniers or setting up, just timed with the standard tools.

You can get the standard ecu running bodies using a map tank, which also can supply the brake servo. I did the majority of the work on Russ's itb conversion, namely fitting it all and getting it running. I suggested it to him about 2 months before hand as he was saving for an omex, but i wanted to see if it was possible after many tuners saying it wasnt.

[kj16v]

Well done on the setup, by the way. Cheaper solution and made power.

The thing with a MAP setup like yours is that, while it's absolutely fine for civilised road cams, if you tried to run lairy race cams with large overlap they would 'confuse' the MAP sensor, meaning you would never be able to get them to idle smothly. The same would happen if you tried to run lumpy cams on a standard plenum setup. That's why ITB setups tend to run alpha-n management. Alpha-n is limited in its uses but it's the only way to get 'lumpy' engines to run smoothly at lower revs.

If you fitted performance cams to an F4R surely would still have to adjust them? - depending on what th spec of the cams is. The ecu constanly varies the inlet cam timing, but only with respect to load and rpm. So wouldn't the iniitial cam timing still have to be set?

[Laine_16v]

If you fitted performance cams to an F4R surely would still have to adjust them? - depending on what th spec of the cams is. The ecu constanly varies the inlet cam timing, but only with respect to load and rpm. So wouldn't the iniitial cam timing still have to be set?

F4R's can run VVT delete verniers on the raci'er cams.

[dunlop]

they can run verniers, but even the 422 profile which will make 240ish will still run standard vvt. Advantage of the vvt system on the f4r's is it pretty much eliminates overlap on idle. retards the inlet cam 16 degrees. or advances it at 1450rpm, depending on how you look at it. Russ' car is brilliant to drive, starts, runs and actaully idles better than a standard one. my itb'd one on omex and 421's idled perfectly with no lumpyness, so i could see it not posing a problem on the standard unit. I think russ is looking at cams next, purely to see how far you can push a standard ecu setup before standalone is NECESSARY.

[dunlop]

If you fitted performance cams to an F4R surely would still have to adjust them? - depending on what th spec of the cams is. The ecu constanly varies the inlet cam timing, but only with respect to load and rpm. So wouldn't the iniitial cam timing still have to be set?

The standard VVT on f4r 73x settings are advance/engage @ 1450rpm or 850mBar and retard/disengage at 6500rpm. its purely a on/off system.

the f4r 83x system does run constantly variable.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I'm going to partially hijack here and ask, why not just drop a std Clio 200 lump in?

Cable throttle body from the Cup cars, which has been done by at least 1 197 owner

[Swervin_Mervin]

Nigh on 200bhp (by Renault's book anyway so probably about 180 :lol: ) from a totally std lump?

[walters300]

:idea: I will wait for someone else to do it then copy them :wink: !! before i sell my Itbs and regret it :? , can anybody tell me if its possible to just stick them on without having to buy an expensive after market ecu, if i could just stick them on the williams in standard form i would be happy enough just to have the noise factor, dont mind if its low bhp, could i not loop the 4 branches into 1 box and hook the map sensor up to that? spamming my own thread now and going completely off track :D

[Justin..]

Well its been done on a mk2 so could be possible....

[walters300]

:D must be possible, i reckon if a tuner managed to pul it off many people would buy itbs even for low bhp gain, 1500 for itbs is reasonable on an old car just for the growl, 3-5k is not value for money and takes the fun out of it, whoever pulls it off 1st could make a few bucks as i would buy a chip definitly, also there must be a way of making a shorter manifold to avoid needing yet another expensive radiator, the at power ones are bolt to head i see and maybe shorter trumpets could save that expense of a short rad. might do hat now but i aint sure :oops: I could be talking total bollocks above but thats how i see it from a very basic mechanical view point, I.E i know very little :? CMON KJ GET ON IT DUDE!

[2 live]

its not just the fact that theres limited room behind the rad..but the trumpets will be sucking in all the hot air from the rad...not good for trying to make power. altho im sure there are other rads that can be used. the pug 205s are a shorter rad with the in/outlets in roughly the same place as the williams/valver


and as for cuntlers mapping skills...lmao.....dont get me started

[walters300]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixmr7x7YUwQ I think i have the answer for a halfords job of it!! these bmc filters really sound good and would be the solution for me i think as its only the noise i am after, anybody got one fitted? :wink:

[-jo-]

i'm not gonna sh*t in someones garden but if you want a serious custom map, go to fastchip and map it on the rollers.

All the lowboost conversions whe did had between 190 and 200 at the wheels (machined standard pistons with 9.0:1 cr on 0.6 bar/ 9 psi)