View Full Version : Cams with throttle bodies
Ok, so we all know that ITB's are great and make lots of noise, but what about the cams to fit with them?
The criteria the cams must meet along with the ITB's is simply to retain good driveability even in heavy traffic and shitty roads and be user friendly.
Of course, with ITB's you can smooth out cams with the aftermarket ECU mapping np, but surely there is a limit? Cat cam 225's are a solid choice and are not too spikey, however there must be other options to consider for a bit more power.
Personally I like mid range punch but not at the expense of top or low end.
Thoughts?
ITB's on there own should be enough really mate, I'd just get those personally and not bother with cams.
Ye, but I'm insane.
Im running the catcam 225's and shall be upgrading the engine with ITB'S soon,was told to upgrade to catcam 55502213's but Craig @APD said theyd probably be a bit too wild for the build i have.But maybe an option for you.
what about going for 225 and getting high comp pistons too or maybe use a meggy head with bigger inlets.
Probs good for 200plus HP as well as cams but also slightly insane if ur gonna be driving it normal style.
2225's will be fine...theres kinda a limitation on the cam choices unless you fit uprated valve springs/retainers.
It'll shift just fine with itb's and those cams!
zmaster2k
04-02-2010, 20:51
clio_girl is running some mental cams eith her ITBs
Piper 285's ? mine are very capable on std inlet providing lots of torque/bhp throughout the rev range. with itb this will get even better with some aggresive timing in place i would of thought :D
ThRaXaIR
04-02-2010, 21:29
i have no idea what would happen but....it sounds sexy! :D
clio-girl runs 213's iirc
what about going for 225 and getting high comp pistons too or maybe use a meggy head with bigger inlets.
Probs good for 200plus HP as well as cams but also slightly insane if ur gonna be driving it normal style.
225's are probably the option for now. As Stan says, messing about with valve springs isn't for me just yet.
I already have a 714 head at my disposal hoho! It's off to visit Stan soon.
I will be looking for an output that can rival or better the beefier Megane turbo's and thus a whole host of other current machinery. ITB's are a core part of this as I don't want a turbo, even though power potential is higher.
All is in progress as we speak, should have delivery of a Gripper LSD shortly to help with additional power...guess I should completely redo a project thread...watch this space ;)
LEIGH-ANNE
05-02-2010, 00:47
i have no idea what would happen but....it sounds sexy! :D
Good enough for me....do wot he says :lol:
Im all about the ITB route myself, just dont have the g's lying around right now.
What would be the advantage of high compression pistions as well. Is this compatable in a road going car and is it worth the extra cost for the powergains?
If you are rebuilding the engine, definately....if not then I probably wouldnt bother.
Well Stan, I have some plans later on and a spare F7R700 here as well....I think you may shortly be too busy to do it though ;)
Well Stan, I have some plans later on and a spare F7R700 here as well....I think you may shortly be too busy to do it though ;)
have you won the lottery lol
Well Stan, I have some plans later on and a spare F7R700 here as well....I think you may shortly be too busy to do it though ;)
have you won the lottery lol
Work hard, play hard ;)
Well Stan, I have some plans later on and a spare F7R700 here as well....I think you may shortly be too busy to do it though ;)
have you won the lottery lol
Work hard, play hard ;)
i think for the clio it should be......
work hard, play hard, pay harder!
Well Stan, I have some plans later on and a spare F7R700 here as well....I think you may shortly be too busy to do it though ;)
have you won the lottery lol
Work hard, play hard ;)
i think for the clio it should be......
work hard, play hard, pay harder!
Lol yes very true! I've had a few things many would consider a bit mental lined up for ages. LSD, ITB's, headwork etc. After this is done its off to be shod with some R888's for the summer, maybe on a spare set of wheels, and a visit to the bodyshop after I have the suspension sorted by a pro race team and finally the brakes lol...who needs brakes!
I was considering buy your orange alloys as well actually Richy, but I need t hold off for a couple of months and would prefer to get some Willy speedlines in black, Arj256 style.
Then its just going to be a case of buying another car, using the Willy as my track car.
lol
all good stuff tbh and if i won the lotto id do it myself, i can afford to but have decided to put the money elsewere instead, got a newer car lined up instead as the discovery is insanely boring lol
lol
all good stuff tbh and if i won the lotto id do it myself, i can afford to but have decided to put the money elsewere instead, got a newer car lined up instead as the discovery is insanely boring lol
I've not won the lotto hehe, I've just had some silly pay rises over the last few months and my circumstances now mean I have a healthy expendable income. The great thing is I am due another big rise again soon lol and promotion to Director level at work.
My sensible head tells me to be more frugal, but I've never been frugal with cars, and judging by Evogone's car, neither is he hehe! May get into racing one day myself.
LEIGH-ANNE
06-02-2010, 01:46
Glad u told richy ur plans hes been grilling me for ages lol
lol
all good stuff tbh and if i won the lotto id do it myself, i can afford to but have decided to put the money elsewere instead, got a newer car lined up instead as the discovery is insanely boring lol
I've not won the lotto hehe, I've just had some silly pay rises over the last few months and my circumstances now mean I have a healthy expendable income. The great thing is I am due another big rise again soon lol and promotion to Director level at work.
My sensible head tells me to be more frugal, but I've never been frugal with cars, and judging by Evogone's car, neither is he hehe! May get into racing one day myself.
Fancy buying me some ITB's wobba, i will be your best friend! 8)
Glad u told richy ur plans hes been grilling me for ages lol
Haha, well I thought I may as well come clean.
vkosho: lol, you can passenger in it if you're at a track day :)
yeh that will be sweet mate
Laine_16v
09-02-2010, 17:38
Get Cat 213's wildest cam without uprated springs and retainers, will provide healthy power, a tad moreso than 2225's
volymmannen
09-02-2010, 18:02
Get Cat 213's wildest cam without uprated springs and retainers, will provide healthy power, a tad moreso than 2225's
not worth it the springs and retainers cost more than the cams for a few bhp
Justin..
09-02-2010, 19:40
He said you dont need uprated springs and retainers?
They don't require springs/retainers, but laine is being very speculative with his reply....he's never never used either...he's judging figures by the position of the camshaft data as it's seen on the catcams website.
I've used both, the 213's gave a nice gain but the 225's gave more midrange.
I could choose to hunt BHP here and go the 213 route but I like my mid range punch. Can always send it back if I don't like em, right Stan? ;)
white16valver
09-02-2010, 21:21
Well done on the promotions, wobba :)
Hope you're putting some away into a rainy day fund and some into a pension too ;)
Well done on the promotions, wobba :)
Hope you're putting some away into a rainy day fund and some into a pension too ;)
Thanks :)
I'm doing ok, I am not being totally reckless! Though I will admit the work on the Williams is not exactly a cheap option :roll:
At the end of the Summer or maybe a bit sooner I'll stick the car in the bodyshop for some paint and TLC as well hehe.
Cant wait to test this gripper diff out as well...spending about £900 on that too.
cliokongen
09-02-2010, 23:01
225's are simply awesome...
Excellent midrange and a healthy improvement in torque from almost idle till at least 6500.
Don't know about other Cat cams though.
Used the Kent RN2004 on a Valver - also worked quite well. (cams, headwork, exhaust, remap = 169bhp / no torque though)
Key thing here IMO is the mapping.
No cam is better than the mapping made to suit your exact application.
Michael
225's are simply awesome...
Excellent midrange and a healthy improvement in torque from almost idle till at least 6500.
Don't know about other Cat cams though.
Used the Kent RN2004 on a Valver - also worked quite well. (cams, headwork, exhaust, remap = 169bhp / no torque though)
Key thing here IMO is the mapping.
No cam is better than the mapping made to suit your exact application.
Michael
Get some videos up soon mate! I know you are having a few more trick parts put on but I NEED to see the Orange on full bore to satisfy my impatince to get my own car done!
I doubt my car will ever have such a minty bay as yours though, and I dont think Stan wants to be going over all my parts with marigolds and a toothbrush hehe.
white16valver
10-02-2010, 01:01
Glad to hear you're being sensible ;)
Will be expensive getting the willy restored to top notch condition and running loads more power, and you'll probably lose it all when you eventually sell it, but will be cheaper than spunking £10k on a newer car then watching it depreciate just sitting on your drive :)
I bagsy a passenger ride when I'm next down your way :P lol
Michael - 169bhp from a valver??! That must have been mental on track but hard work on the road lol
hehe, will he ever sell it though..
You going high comp too wobba?
Glad to hear you're being sensible ;)
Will be expensive getting the willy restored to top notch condition and running loads more power, and you'll probably lose it all when you eventually sell it, but will be cheaper than spunking £10k on a newer car then watching it depreciate just sitting on your drive :)
I bagsy a passenger ride when I'm next down your way :P lol
Michael - 169bhp from a valver??! That must have been mental on track but hard work on the road lol
Thing is mate I wont sell it. Just keeping the exterior completely standard (bar a bit lowered) and if I ever want to make it original again, simple job of engine and box out and a few other bits, old engine back in. Job done.
I dont really have to throw money at it anymore as most stuff is totally sorted, so only petrol, tax and insurance. The other stuff I get is just for fun.
hehe, will he ever sell it though..
You going high comp too wobba?
For now, no. I think the car will be plenty nuts enough to keep me entertained. Could start a long term project on my other engine though....hmm....
sideways danny
10-02-2010, 03:04
Personally I have 213s and i'm confident they'll be good with ITBs when they go on. they are excessively peaky for the standard inlet though. I'm still making power at the 7350 limiter. A couple of degrees retard on the inlet cam should help with that though, and the ITBs will give a much improved torque spread
Laine_16v
10-02-2010, 16:28
They don't require springs/retainers, but laine is being very speculative with his reply....he's never never used either...he's judging figures by the position of the camshaft data as it's seen on the catcams website.
I've used both, the 213's gave a nice gain but the 225's gave more midrange.
True, but ronees goes well now from what ive heard? :P
Obviously a camshaft with more duration / lift is going to shift power higher up, but thats what you like afterall isnt it craig? "aye like bud i prefer a camshaft with a bit more lift like bud!!" :wink:
I prefer more lift, yes...
Keeps the discharge coefficient higher for longer ;)
ThRaXaIR
10-02-2010, 23:51
and I dont think Stan wants to be going over all my parts with marigolds and a toothbrush hehe.
how can you possibly know what stan is into Wob?! :o
they share their bondage sessions........
or so iv heard ;)
The rumours have started already I see!
Whilst there is no bondage planned as yet, Stan will be getting intimate with my head, which is being picked up today and sent over to him :)
For those of you who want to know, the current and probably final build details are:
Engine:
APD 'Spec 2' rebuilt F7R714 cylinder head (running coils)
Catcams 225 cams
Catcams Vernier Pulleys
Jenvey Individual Throttle Bodies + Filter etc
Standalone ECU management
Megane flywheel/clutch
Short radiator & Fan
Megane refurbished Injectors (high impedance)
Gearbox:
New 'box seals
Gripper Limited Slip Differential
Reinforced bolt set-up for Crown Wheel
Modified Crown Wheel for diff.
Finally:
Mapping!
No idea of the power it will make, but I am hoping it should be pleasantly driveable at low revs but a beastie in mid and top when I want to go nuts or go to track days.
^ ^ ^
Awesome to the max!
:doit:
The rumours have started already I see!
Whilst there is no bondage planned as yet, Stan will be getting intimate with my head, which is being picked up today and sent over to him :)
For those of you who want to know, the current and probably final build details are:
Engine:
APD 'Spec 2' rebuilt F7R714 cylinder head (running coils)
Catcams 225 cams
Catcams Vernier Pulleys
Jenvey Individual Throttle Bodies + Filter etc
Standalone ECU management
Megane flywheel/clutch
Short radiator & Fan
Megane refurbished Injectors (high impedance)
Gearbox:
New 'box seals
Gripper Limited Slip Differential
Reinforced bolt set-up for Crown Wheel
Modified Crown Wheel for diff.
Finally:
Mapping!
No idea of the power it will make, but I am hoping it should be pleasantly driveable at low revs but a beastie in mid and top when I want to go nuts or go to track days.
Damn you wobba, reading that engine spec makes me want to part with my hard earned cash now! Will be interesting to have a look over it at the FCS when it's all done, you not fancy doing Anglesey in August?
Anglesey sounds like fun. I'll know for sure what I am going to be up to after all this work has been carried out. After this I'll start booking track days I think :)
I am wondering if my little car will be able to keep up with the Megane Turbo cars. Be interesting to see the power and torque it makes, got no idea what to expect.
1995clio16v
28-02-2010, 00:21
Is it a waste of time running them on standard internals?
1995clio16v
28-02-2010, 00:21
Standard top and bottom end internals that is.
Is it a waste of time running them on standard internals?
ITB's? No, can run the car totally standard with ITB's and it will still make a damn good improvement.
guys u can go fairly crazy on cam profile if you have the compression to go with it. large duration cams loose the dynamic compression at low revs, as the valve closes when the piston is half way up the compression stroke. so i would definately use hi comp pistons as this will not only increase top end but low and mid power. these large overlap cams make power up high as there is scavenge effect from said overlap.
my valver was 165bhp at 8k with hi compression from head skims with cams and was totally driveable smooth and lovely
High comp engine is next stage for me.
ThRaXaIR
16-03-2010, 20:06
wobba that thing is gunna be an Fing animal! and i suspect will turn round and bite your nuts off. but do it, do it!
one day when im not poor, im heading off down this route! also i would imagine you'll be slaying the meg sports with that spec.
wobba that thing is gunna be an Fing animal! and i suspect will turn round and bite your nuts off. but do it, do it!
one day when im not poor, im heading off down this route! also i would imagine you'll be slaying the meg sports with that spec.
That's he plan :) I hope it wont bite me and I am going to try and reign in my enthusiasm and not go too nuts on those tricky bits of road :D
It's been at APD for some time now due to some acts of nature and gripper diffs being immensely slow with getting the diff done, but it is done now and with Craig.
Since the original post I've added a 2.5" exhaust and d/p and a 13 row Mocal oil cooler to the list.
Desperate to get my car back now, what with this and giving up smoking I have become very hard to live/work with.
still of the cigs mate.. Nice one. Need to achive the things your doing lol.
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