View Full Version : Newbie after Tuning advise
raviedavie
02-06-2009, 11:16
Hello all ive just bought a willy 3 as a project with a view to fully restoring her but id like to get some more power under the bonnet. im after advise really as im not sure what exactly to do. so i can go turbo or ITB but ideally i want a full monster engine with everthing as good as it can be. Any advise will be extremely appreciated :D
MatBrown
02-06-2009, 17:45
Money no object?
Mat.
raviedavie
02-06-2009, 17:53
was working on about 5k ish engine wise
my advice try and drive both ..itb and turbo then chose
or forget both above. and charge it
raviedavie
03-06-2009, 11:04
hadnt even thought about supercharging tbh. As i said im new to all this , had a valver quite a few years ago and loved it so when the willy came up i thought why not !!!
16v_paddy
03-06-2009, 18:27
Have a chat with stan (APD) & Dan@gdi they're the experts with the knowledge and the prices :wink:
If i had 1.5k to spend I'd just supercharge it with a rotrex. You can keep standard ecu etc. that price is just for the kit and you'd have to do everything yourself obviously.
raviedavie
03-06-2009, 19:56
If i had 1.5k to spend I'd just supercharge it with a rotrex. You can keep standard ecu etc. that price is just for the kit and you'd have to do everything yourself obviously.
but wouldnt the engine struggle as its got 104k on the clock ? i was assuming i would need to do some strenghtening on the engine etc ??
If i had 1.5k to spend I'd just supercharge it with a rotrex. You can keep standard ecu etc. that price is just for the kit and you'd have to do everything yourself obviously.
but wouldnt the engine struggle as its got 104k on the clock ? i was assuming i would need to do some strenghtening on the engine etc ??
Worry about that when/if it blows up tbh :wink:
Give me a bell if you want any advice on tuning these engines, Ive built many over the last 4-5 years to various specs, making various figures, and to suit various budgets, for road and race use.
workshop number is 01639 845009
or email is info@ap-developments.com
ITB'd in my opinion, much better drivability.
Phone stan, he's the man!! ^^
stan how much for the bare minimum, i.e. the tb's. assuming I were to source/make other parts myself (manifold, linkage, sensors, ecu etc)? and fit myself :wink:
If i had 1.5k to spend I'd just supercharge it with a rotrex. You can keep standard ecu etc. that price is just for the kit and you'd have to do everything yourself obviously.
That may just about pay for a c30 series Rotrex unit, traction fluid catch tank with fluid and not a great deal else. It wont run on a standard ECU either... well, it depends on definition of run, but it will be rough, will have no part throttle economy and will randomly idle upto 3k rpm. You also then have the machine costs assuming you design your own bracket, which for a one off will be horrendously expensive.
I priced it up a while ago, about the same time as you started looking in to it. I found a few places that would sell the complete rotrex kit for about 1.5k. By kit I mean sc, piping, oil catch tank, rad and oil.
Obviously exchange rates have changed now so I guess it could be a tad more expensive.
How can you say it won't run on standard ecu? Have you tried it? I would at least try that first and if it doesn't work nothing lost really. You'd have saved yourself a butt load of money if it does work. Can't see the point in moving from something which is perfectly capable if it works. There are plenty of people running standard ecu's on turbo set ups, so I don't really know where your coming from.
By the way there is a guy running a 400bhp supercharged pug 306 gti-6 around portsmouth, he did most of the work himself. Guess what ecu he's running? Standard OEM. It's his daily runner and has no issues at all. Vacuum take offs for the map sensor, brakes, etc etc, are plumbed in BEFORE (upstream of) the SC. This way he ratains even the standard map sensor. I've not looked but I'm guessing the pug ECU's aren't massively different? Probably siemens as well?
As for brackets etc, you could make these yourself out of some ally sheeting. No need to get anything machined ???
If your good with your hands, and have an intelligent head on your shoulders then anything is possible. I don't know why people make out that stuff like this is hard/expensive when it doesn't have to be.
additionally, there are websites where you can get stuff machined, draw the stuff right there on the web site, or provide cad/drawings... never used it but i've heard its pretty good.
sideways danny
09-06-2009, 21:26
If i had 1.5k to spend I'd just supercharge it with a rotrex. You can keep standard ecu etc. that price is just for the kit and you'd have to do everything yourself obviously.
That may just about pay for a c30 series Rotrex unit, traction fluid catch tank with fluid and not a great deal else. It wont run on a standard ECU either... well, it depends on definition of run, but it will be rough, will have no part throttle economy and will randomly idle upto 3k rpm. You also then have the machine costs assuming you design your own bracket, which for a one off will be horrendously expensive.
I priced it up a while ago, about the same time as you started looking in to it. I found a few places that would sell the complete rotrex kit for about 1.5k. By kit I mean sc, piping, oil catch tank, rad and oil.
Obviously exchange rates have changed now so I guess it could be a tad more expensive.
How can you say it won't run on standard ecu? Have you tried it? I would at least try that first and if it doesn't work nothing lost really. You'd have saved yourself a butt load of money if it does work. Can't see the point in moving from something which is perfectly capable if it works. There are plenty of people running standard ecu's on turbo set ups, so I don't really know where your coming from.
By the way there is a guy running a 400bhp supercharged pug 306 gti-6 around portsmouth, he did most of the work himself. Guess what ecu he's running? Standard OEM. It's his daily runner and has no issues at all. Vacuum take offs for the map sensor, brakes, etc etc, are plumbed in BEFORE (upstream of) the SC. This way he ratains even the standard map sensor. I've not looked but I'm guessing the pug ECU's aren't massively different? Probably siemens as well?
As for brackets etc, you could make these yourself out of some ally sheeting. No need to get anything machined ???
If your good with your hands, and have an intelligent head on your shoulders then anything is possible. I don't know why people make out that stuff like this is hard/expensive when it doesn't have to be.
You can't even get a charger for £1500, they're ~£1700+VAT on their own at the moment for a C30-94.
I've seen some of these supercharged 306s that are claiming huge power. In reality, none are making what they could. One in particular i know of has been limited due to being stupidly unreliable. At 3rd attempt it's running just under 300 to stop it breaking rods and cranks.
Standard map sensor will be in the wrong range for boost, so that's bollocks, and if it's plummed in before the charger it will be seeing massive vacuum rather than positive pressure. That's just a mess
I've seen some of these supercharged 306s that are claiming huge power. In reality, none are making what they could. One in particular i know of has been limited due to being stupidly unreliable. At 3rd attempt it's running just under 300 to stop it breaking rods and cranks.
Zollo (off here) wrote an article on this particular pug 306. Also its listed on the official rotrex web site, ranked #11 power wise. http://www.supercharger-experience.com/peugeot_306_gti6.php
The mag articles can be found at that url also, a good read.
Standard map sensor will be in the wrong range for boost, so that's bollocks, and if it's plummed in before the charger it will be seeing massive vacuum rather than positive pressure. That's just a mess
Why would it be any different to how the standard map sensor is now? Does that not see "vacuum", considering its on the plenum just like all the other vacuum take-offs i.e. brakes, top end, fuel reg.
If its "bollocks" then you could simply use an r21 turbo map sensor then, no? :?:
Standard NA map sensors are usually 1.1bar, so can "see" just over atmospheric. This means they are no good for inlet pressure.
So yes, the likes of a 21T or whatever from sensor suppliers will be needed.
sideways danny
10-06-2009, 12:46
Why would it be any different to how the standard map sensor is now? Does that not see "vacuum", considering its on the plenum just like all the other vacuum take-offs i.e. brakes, top end, fuel reg.
If its "bollocks" then you could simply use an r21 turbo map sensor then, no? :?:
right, you said it's plummed pre charger, so when the engine is seeing boost (positive pressure), the map sensor will be seeing vacuum (negative pressure). So precisely the opposite of what you need. You could use a different sensor if you have the appropriate hex code to make it worth with the different ecu
*worth noting there's no such thing as negative pressure technically as it's a relative measurement, but it works for the example
raviedavie
10-06-2009, 13:09
ok while i have the top boys on here can i ask for your thoughts on engine setup. i know its very basic but what would you recommend out of turbo , supercharger or throttle bodies.
i.e if it was your choice on your own engine ......
Why would it be any different to how the standard map sensor is now? Does that not see "vacuum", considering its on the plenum just like all the other vacuum take-offs i.e. brakes, top end, fuel reg.
If its "bollocks" then you could simply use an r21 turbo map sensor then, no? :?:
right, you said it's plummed pre charger, so when the engine is seeing boost (positive pressure), the map sensor will be seeing vacuum (negative pressure). So precisely the opposite of what you need. You could use a different sensor if you have the appropriate hex code to make it worth with the different ecu
*worth noting there's no such thing as negative pressure technically as it's a relative measurement, but it works for the example
I see, so guess a r21 map sensor is the way to go then.
ok while i have the top boys on here can i ask for your thoughts on engine setup. i know its very basic but what would you recommend out of turbo , supercharger or throttle bodies.
i.e if it was your choice on your own engine ......
If I had the choice on my own engine then supercharged via rotrex. Most people choose either turbo or itb's though.
sideways danny
10-06-2009, 14:25
that's quite tough actually. We've supercharged 2 mk2 clios now, but not a mk1, Should be a fairly similar job. Not a fan of turboing the F7R anymore. I do love throttle bodies though, and I'm going to have them on my Mi16 205
if i'd of built mine myself, would probably of gone for bodies, but i bought it already turboed and havent looked back/considered swapping my engine for a t/b'd one. i now love boost :lol:
Aren't bodies more reliable as they are just direct inlets whereas with turbos your talkin about a totaly seperate machine therefore increasing the possibility of something going wrong.
Also with turbo's, doesn't it require a rebuild on the bottom end with low compression pistons etc?
plus your talking about a new manifold, and additional intercooler and pipework as well as relocating the air filter and battery.
After all this what is it you gain from a turbo over T bodies?
yeah but u own a gaylords car.
williams on bodies is all good. but for the buzz id go charger all fukkin day long.
standalone ecu, as apparently the 'this will work on std ecu' argument lasts about 5 mins before it blows up..........again........and i didnt even get the keys........grrrrrrrrrrr
u say that now, but for years was singing his praises after id warned u not to let the halfwit near your car.........but then......i can understand u not wanting to slag him off when he still had soooo many parts that should have been fitted to the car in the first place..paid for by you and sold to clio girl (knowing full well they wouldnt fit) as well if memory serves me right......
sideways danny
16-06-2009, 02:19
[
Had 428 cams and 48mm taper bodies, then had standard cams and bigger 45mm parrallel ITB's, then went to a charger! I LOVE ITB's, the noise and performance is fantastic, so it the MPG improvement, BUT, the charger is simply amazing for performance and so so drivable. Really you cant go wrong with either, but I've driven over 40k with ITB's and personally I'd say charger for the mentalist aspect of it, as it really does turn the car into a semi-supercar killer :)
No, you had 45 parallels first, then 42.5-48 tapers more recently. both have a 45mm butterfly
[
Had 428 cams and 48mm taper bodies, then had standard cams and bigger 45mm parrallel ITB's, then went to a charger! I LOVE ITB's, the noise and performance is fantastic, so it the MPG improvement, BUT, the charger is simply amazing for performance and so so drivable. Really you cant go wrong with either, but I've driven over 40k with ITB's and personally I'd say charger for the mentalist aspect of it, as it really does turn the car into a semi-supercar killer :)
No, you had 45 parallels first, then 42.5-48 tapers more recently. both have a 45mm butterfly
Which are best..?
also how do they compare to AT Power's 38mm DTH tb's ? :wink:
sideways danny
16-06-2009, 20:48
also how do they compare to AT Power's 38mm DTH tb's ? :wink:
Only used them on an F4R, didn't make the power we wanted, and the jenveys did, so we stuck with those. Shame, the ATs are beautifully made. IMO needed to be bigger.
Jon, you definitely had tapers, that's what the 172 kit has
After all this what is it you gain from a turbo over T bodies?
about 80 to 180bhp depending on spec..
so DTH 45mm tb's would be the way to go? i.e. larger AT jobbies?
sideways danny
16-06-2009, 23:39
no point speculating on that, they wont make them bigger, sadly
On a williams I'd go for Jenvey 45mm DCOEs. The quality is consistent, they're easy to balance unlike practically any other make, and they're considerably cheaper. on a Megane head, there's a better manifold available so you can run SF bodies, basically identical setup to the F4R
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