FAO KS

[Swervin_Mervin]

Apparently you'll be gutted to learn that Autocack think the Trophy is the world's greatest ever hot hatch.

I did say I'd wait for a proper magazine to review the thing.

I may even go for a test drive in one and see what I think. I suspect I know what I'll think though.

[KingStromba]

The things is, when most 'reviews' state that the '182' is the worlds best hothatch, they are often refering to the present crop of cars.

Lets face it, no enthusiast in their right mind would claim that a 182 is a better all round car than an A1 condition Lancia Delta Integrale. But thats not what the review is about. Its based on people buying a car now, and the review rightly reviews the car against present production cars.

I agree whole heartedly that the Trophy is the best hothatch you can presently buy, for fun and chuckability. I dont agree that its offers more all round appeal than a Williams or an Integrale, especially in terms of ownership appeal. The jury is out on whether the fancy resevoir dampers offer any great improvements over other 182 variants, or even the 172.

My personal oppinion is that the 182 has been devalued so much by there being so many different versions that even the Trophy will slip into insignificance. Its also worth bearing in mind that 'Williams' is a famous British name that the British public hold in very high esteem. I have no idea what 'Trophy' means, and i am guessing that most people will just see it as a meanigless name like 'Billabong' or 'Quicksilver' on the side of other hatchback cars. Whether we like it or not, the rumours that Williams built the Williams Chassis have added alot of value and kudos to our cars.

Its obvious that Evo will claim the Trophy it is the best hothtach ever, as they were involved in the development of the setup. Its is also perhaps an indication of how far in bed Renault have become with Evo mag, and perhaps an indication that some of the later reviews of present production cars should be taken with a pinch of salt. There is clearly a commercial link between the two and that can lead to bias and marketing hype.

It doesnt bother me that reviews claim that the 182 is the best hothatch. Reviews do it all the time. Everytime a new car comes out it is claimed to be 'the best'. Evo has claimed every incarnation of the 182 is an improvement, something which i fail to see possible, as they are in effect to those in the know, exactly the same car. In fact, i would be suprised to learn if the 182 was truely an improvement on the stunning 172, or if it was just review hype.

At he end of the day, the Trophy doesn have the name of a famous and successful formula one team associated with it. Just as the Mclaren SLR is made more famous and desirable than if it was just a Mercedes, the Williams will always be more special than 'ordinary French hothatches'. And if speed is your thing, them buy a williams and stick a set of cams on it and buy some expensive resevour dampers and set up the car as a track car and you will have no problem lapping at the same pace. Plus when you do, youll look and feel more special.

[Swervin_Mervin]

<claps>

I had a disagreement with 2 people elsewhere about how much better the 182 could really be over the 172. I was told that since I'd not driven a 182 I couldn't comment on whether it was much cop, and that basing my arguements on my drive of a 172 and ownership of the dci was not justifiable!

I also believe that renault may have shot used values for the 172 variants since there are a million and one. It's one thing having, say, 2 special versions but having potentially 8 variants is silly.

I really do think though that evo should pull their fingers out and test the two supposed greatest hot hatches side by side. Hell, even dig out all the legends like the mk1 Golf, the 205, the 306, the Saxo, the 106 etc.

It would make a superb feature, especially if they did what they're good at and put some history in there as well, and it would allow a greater comparison of each cars weaknesses and strengths and a greater comparison of how things have changed since the hot hatch was born.

But my request to them has fallen on deaf ears so far.

[KingStromba]

I think it would be better to test the 182 against others when the new clio is out. That way they can be more honest without upsetting their lovers Renault. And they will always prefere the 182 as they effectively made the setup.

Even if the 182 could lap a track 3 seconds quicker than an Integrale, one look at the Integrale owners club car section makes you realise which is the better car to own.

[Smokey McPot]

Hmmm Williams vs 182 vs CTR vs 306Gti 6 vs 172 Cup vs 205GTi vs 106 Gti vs Mk2 Golf Gti vs Mk1 Golf Gti Vs Saxo

I buy that edition.

[Swervin_Mervin]

See what I mean? Everyone would buy that edition, including those that hate hot hatches.

Sad that some people seem to think Faster = Better though.

[Smokey McPot]

Did I miss any important ones?

Think i covered most decent cars in the price/size range :)

[Swervin_Mervin]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v
Honda CTR
MINI Cooper S


Think that is all the biggies.

[KingStromba]

Fiesta Zetec S?


Slow but sublime handler. Need a ford. :D

[Swervin_Mervin]

Yeah I thought about that, and then thought no. :P

[Tommo]

Peugeot 309 GTI? One of the most underrated cars ever should be on the list!!

[Jamie.]

Sad that some people seem to think Faster = Better though.

they be called americans....

what makes the williams stand out from the lists above is the sense of occasion u get when u get to drive one and the reputation it has.

309 mixing it with the list of cars above?

[Martin]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v
Honda CTR
MINI Cooper S


Think that is all the biggies.
:?

[Swervin_Mervin]

Very uber hot hatch martin. I think there'll be one at Ty Croes actually, but his rear beam is a little dodgy.

[J o n]

the ZX diesel turbo Volcane was as fast too wasn't it? surely that should be on there, quality cars.

[Swervin_Mervin]

That's a diesel. Ergo very wrong :lol:

TBH they'd struggle to find a ZX 16v to test as they're so rare.

[Tommo]

309 mixing it with the list of cars above?

If you've ever driven one you'll know what I'm talking about, I think it would be more than a match to most of the cars on the list, although it would be difficult finding a straight one these days!!

[Slithers]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v
Honda CTR
MINI Cooper S


Think that is all the biggies.
:?

Think its meant to be the BX that, had a near identical engine to the MI16 iirc

[Swervin_Mervin]

No. ZX.

[Purple]

There should be some Escorts in there too, I think.

And my personal fave great driving hatch - Alfasud Ti (not the swoopy Veloce) - the very last model was a hatchback. Though, it never gets mentioned these days.

[Tommo]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v
Honda CTR
MINI Cooper S


Think that is all the biggies.
:?

Think its meant to be the BX that, had a near identical engine to the MI16 iirc

Yup had the same engine as the 405 Mi16, they also did one in a 4x4! I'd love to have a blast in one of them!! There were a couple at the FCS...

The ZX 16v had exactly the same engine as my old 306 S16 which altho was fast enough, don't think is in the league of some of the cars on the list, altho saying that I've never been in one so could be very different to the 306 handling wise etc.

[Slithers]

as far as i know the S16 is near identical engine as a 1.9 mi16, but bored out to 2.0 and is a cast iron block so its heavy as fook.

different inlet manifold aswell iirc.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Yep on all counts. ZX has the first incarnation of the ZX/306/Zsara chassis, and is considerably lighter than the later 2 so doesn't lose out in terms of pace.

Some (read very, very few) of the last ones off the line had the 167bhp lupm that went in to the 306/Xsara.

[Tommo]

There's only 10kg difference between the 306 S16 and ZX 16v according to carstats.co.uk so the difference between to two will be very marginal. Would love to have a go of the 167 bhp ZX!!

[2 live]

lotus sunbeam
309 def, in some respects handled as well as its smaller bro, sometimes outhandled it.
mazda 323 4wd 1800 turbo



just another couple lol

[Zollo]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v Please don't be offended, but isn't this a bit pointless when the Williams is included?
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v Probably great cars, but never read anywhere that they're one of the best hot hatches
Honda CTR - Wouldn't put that one in becasue everything I read says they great, apart from the chassis! I wasn't impressed with the one I drove either
MINI Cooper S Would have to be the Works version


Think that is all the biggies.

Just being picky really, don't mean to rubbish the list :shock:

Also, could the Puma be included in that lot? And the 309 was supposed to be amazing. Slightly more predictable and stable than the 205, which is no bad thing :P

[/b]

[Winston]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v
Honda CTR
MINI Cooper S


Think that is all the biggies.

Thats better lol

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 106 GTi/Rallye
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTS
Escort cosworth :P


IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swervin_Mervin]

Mk1 Golf Gti
Mk2 Golf Gti
Renault 5GTT
Renault 16v Please don't be offended, but isn't this a bit pointless when the Williams is included?
Renault Williams
Renault 172 Cup
Renault 182 Trophy/Cup
Pug 205 GTI
Pug 306 GTI6/Rallye
Citroen Saxo VTR/VTS
Citroen ZX 16v Probably great cars, but never read anywhere that they're one of the best hot hatches
Honda CTR - Wouldn't put that one in becasue everything I read says they great, apart from the chassis! I wasn't impressed with the one I drove either
MINI Cooper S Would have to be the Works version


Think that is all the biggies.

Just being picky really, don't mean to rubbish the list :shock:

Also, could the Puma be included in that lot? And the 309 was supposed to be amazing. Slightly more predictable and stable than the 205, which is no bad thing :P

[/b]

The reason I kept the clio 16v in was because it would be interesting to see where it places compared to the others (willy excluded) to see just how much difference the 2L and wide track makes.

ZX really is a fine handler. I was going to put the Xsara VTS in there but thought the ZX was a better choice TBH, since it's more old skool hot hatch.

Fair enough on the 309 front. Anything pre-golf mk1 shouldn't really be classed IMO, since although they may be a hatch that's quick, they're not a "hot hatch."

Could've included the XR2, XR3i etc, but I've always thought they were straight line warriors. Also forgot the Maestro Turbo, Rover 200 GTI ec.

[Smokey McPot]

I think some of ya'll have missed the point of my post.....the cars i picked were all similarly priced and of a similar size....

Think the lotus and the escort cosworth is abit out of the price range compared to the others....not splitting hairs.....but thought i'd say something.

Defo add the Zetec S.....such a car.