View Full Version : Management
Im looking at running some aftermarket management with a vue to more modifications in the future. Basically the engine setup will be lightened and balanced bottom end (williams f7r), gas flowed and ported EITHER williams or megane head with a set of piper 285 cams (or equivalent from other manufacturer).
Basically i dont have a clue which direction to take with management i.e. whether its worth doing, what manufacturer to go with (i hear omex are very good but expensive). Do they come with a loom to suit the engine or does the existing loom have to be spliced into and also when fitted how does the engine run- with some sort of base map i take it?
Any advise on this matter would be much appreciated because its giving me a headache now :cry:
If your planning on ITB's then its necessary, otherwise only if your running silly cam profiles.
I use KMS and Emerald. Both offer (imo) the best value for money in terms of features/functions and useability.
In any case you will typically need to make a loom. You can buy basic looms from most of the ecu manufacturers, but tbh, if you've got half a clue, they arent too difficult to DIY.
As for base maps, they usually do come with one. Ive got a few for emerald, kms, luminition, but if you happen to not have one, they arent too difficult to get running. I can help you if required, but tbh, you should be ok.
Full mapping is a case of finding someone you know/trust...typically costing 350-400£.
wouldn't bother with the piper cams, the cat's get better results. As for management, go with something e-marked
eternalife
08-04-2008, 14:04
Someone I have spoken to recently is planning on turbo conversion to his car and his planning on using an Adaptronic Management System.
I am told its highly reviewed on RTOC.
Are all the afore-mentioned systems E-marked then? What price would a kms or emerald system be Stan?
Eternalife il do some research into adaptronic as ive never heard of them but i want to look at all possibilities!
You thinking of jumping in and doing the mapping yourself, or are you going to get it done for you?
Not really, i would just get it running on a base map first and then take it to somebody who knows exactly what theyre doing for the final mapping- i dont think id know what id be looking at or whether any of it would make any sense-and plus i have no laptop!
I have megan coupé (f7r) and I bought Megasquirt for my turbo project.
it cost about 480 CAD ( with all u need ) and the guy from http://efi4tuning.com/ can help you.
You have to know if you car have (crank trigger ,waste spark),, (hall effect, distributor) and so on.
sorry my english :?
I went for the VEMS ecu, stand alone engine management with all the things you need. Good back up from the UK sales agent ROB via phone and email and a good quality forum. Plenty of different types of cars using the vems now, n/a cars and turbo.
http://www.vems.co.uk/forum/
I belive my clio was the first to have a vems fitted, soon to be remapped.
megasquirt is probs the easiest to use/setup imo
but id go for emerald or dta
Are all the afore-mentioned systems E-marked then?
no, only OMEX and MOTEC are afaik. It's like CE marks on items to show them comply with european safety standards. These two ECU's deffo have this, the rest dont. Okay for a track car, not really for a road car. Especially when the start cracking down on it.
WHEN they start cracking down it...it hasnt been an issue for the last 10 years, and i cant really see that changing in a hurry. If/when it does, i would guess all other manufacturers will get their units complying as appropriate, especially Emerald as they supply alot for road applications.
Sorry Stan, but I already know of one modified car owner who had his car and specifically his management system scrutinised by the police to make sure it was safe for road use. I have a mate who's been stopped and had his car checked for emissions and to see if the cat was present.
I'd feel safer knowing if I had a crash that I wouldn't have to worry about being sued for putting aftermarket management on my car. If it's just a track car, fair enough, but the first thing I'd think of now if someone in a modded car crashed into me, would be that it's fit for road use. Renault stock ECU's are E marked and have gone through numerous safety tests, as if they fail, it's their arse. Omex and Motec have also done this to cover themselves. It may just be cooincidence, but all the little guys like VEMS, Megasquirt etc dont have E-marked products, I'd be 99% certain this is down to costs.
Either way, that's just my opinion, if I ran a business I'd think of the legalities of whatever I sold and did. I'd not fit non E-marked parts, especially an ECU incase it fails I'd be partly responsible for fitting a non EU safety tested product.
Just been doing some research on this, and it transpires that whilst certain brands have E marking on their producst, its a generic approval for the product alone.
However, as stated its generic, for it to apply for the sole vehicle the product is fitted to the actual vehicle would need approval.
So whilst is a good selling point, the fact that the product is E marked or isnt E marked isnt really the whole picture.
My source has also informed me of a fatal accident involving a car using one of THEIR systems, the police were obviously involved, and there was no come back what so ever. In fact the only mention was to see if there was any logging regarding vehicle speed.
Make of this what you will.
It still stands, the likes of Emerald, which I now soley use, make and sell thousands of ECU's.
This isnt going to just stop...
Either way, that's just my opinion, if I ran a business I'd think of the legalities of whatever I sold and did. I'd not fit non E-marked parts, especially an ECU incase it fails I'd be partly responsible for fitting a non EU safety tested product.
And just to be clear...they ALL have to pass saftey standards regarding frequncy and interference levels...
Just been doing some research on this, and it transpires that whilst certain brands have E marking on their producst, its a generic approval for the product alone.
it's not generic at all, it clearly states on their site that it is for mechanical/electrical control units relating to vehicles. If it was generic it would be common place and wouldn't be so expensive... either way, guess we will have to agree to disagree. Some people like to do things on the cheap, others like piece of mind.
show me the site your reffering to fella.
the point being raised that in order for that approval to be moved from a unit in a box, to a unit in a functioning car, THE CAR as a unit must be approved. else how can you accomodate for the user??
So basically so long as its E marked, if its installed and confidured by a monkey, and causes a fatality, then its ok 'cos its E marked?
This is the bit in question, from what ive been told this morning, its not as simple as is being made out.
its not down to price, the Emerald unit is £40+vat more!
Theres nothing to agree or disagree on mate, I use a product I feel offers outstanding value for money...
THAT is my opinion, and on a technical level that is all that matters.
It's on the E-marking website Stan and no, it's to signify that the ECU wont just fail, the car cuts out and runs into a bus stop full of people and kills them. If the total cost of an Omex is only £40 less then it makes it even better value imo.
I thought people used Emerald because it was cheap and to keep costs down personally. I never saw them at auto sport that I can recall, Omex, Motec, DTA and the other big boys were all there.
Anyway, the OP asked about which management to use, if Omex is £40 cheaper then imo it's an absolute no brainer. It's like the choice of Alba or Sony. Sure the Alba does almost all the same things... but would you want one?
Anyway, the OP asked about which management to use, if Omex is £40 cheaper then imo it's an absolute no brainer.
and you come to that conclusion how?
What spec or use information are YOU basing it on?
Emerald are widely regarded by motorsport engineers as being the bottom of the barrel entry level ECU designed for beginners.
Quick search of the net, K3 vs Omex 600 and no one recommends a K3 over a 600... so I'd buy a 710 or a Motec. The information is out there, most experienced tuners dont bother (note I say most, Dave Walker still uses them afaik, big deal though. Motec 1st choice, Omex 2nd personally)
I'm curious... what exactly does the Omex 600 do that the K3 doesn't then? Sounds like nothing more than pure brand snobbery to me.
eternalife
01-05-2008, 13:38
I am watching this one closely, and conducting my own research surrounding the subjects: Good Points for and against from both sides.
http://www.answers.com/topic/certification-mark?cat=biz-fin
''Certification is often mistakenly referred to as an "approval", which is often not true. Organizations such as Underwriters Laboratories, for instance, only "list", they do not approve anything except the use of the mark to show that a product has been certified. There is no such thing as a UL approval. Thus, for instance a product certification mark for a fire door or for a spray fireproofing product, does not signify its universal acceptance within a building.''
I use the above example, as I work in construction and have many times come across similar matters and argued the case with our thrid party warrantors (Such as the NHBC).
If the above is true then an 'e' marked product can be certified (do not mistake this for approved) and still be inadequate/illegal for its use due to its application.
Therefore, a product not 'e' marked can still be fit for purpose.
The other side of the coin is:
OMEX Ecu's are 'e' marked as listed on their website.
This does prove to be a good selling point as they have been certified / listed to conform to various directives as well as controlled manufacturing quality (which should be periodically audited).
I will be researching into this further... :twisted:
Emerald are widely regarded by motorsport engineers as being the bottom of the barrel entry level ECU designed for beginners.
Quick search of the net, K3 vs Omex 600 and no one recommends a K3 over a 600... so I'd buy a 710 or a Motec. The information is out there, most experienced tuners dont bother (note I say most, Dave Walker still uses them afaik, big deal though. Motec 1st choice, Omex 2nd personally)
and can you substantiate these claims?
and can you substantiate these claims?
claims? These are what other people in your profession are saying, most of which have left uni and have more than a year or two of hands on experience.
All the information can be googled to see how well received each are. Lets face it, you'll push your products (and god do you...) and only recommend what suits your wallet. Cant really blame you for that, it's business at the end of the day, but anyone else out there would be better advised to do their own research. Too many people on forums swayed by tech babble and bullshit (BenR anyone?) and dont think for themselves. It's all well and good people saying do this or that, but all the information needed is on the net. Unbiased reviews simply favour Omex and by a huge margin. Look for yourself if you dont believe me. Nearly every so called expert says the same and then recommend something else.
ok mate, lets just leave it there then...
Forgive me for being a bit simple !!!! :oops: :oops:
I find all this information regarding legality etc etc,extremely interesting ~~ and I am NOT going to argue otherwise. :shock: :shock:
It just makes a mockery of the other "mods" people make to there cars ~~ The one I personally have a downer on ~~ WELDING !!!! Steering columns !!!!! :cry: :cry: .
After having seen some of the abortive welds carried out by "so~called" welders it beggars belief,that these faults /modifications are legal !!!!.I would suggest not.
Oh just for interest,I do know what I am talking about regarding welding :roll: :roll: I spent over 40 years in the Aerospace industry ~~ running a section of highly skilled welders and was the "test piece/examiner/invigilator for them.
I have yet to see a correctly welded steering column ,that would pass a suitable penetration test,and has been x-rayed/crack tested to prove it is 110% safe.
But you guys are quite happy to carry on using them ~~ I just hope no~one has an almighty.
I am afraid my experience has always led me to use OE parts on my road car for steering brakes etc. :wink: :wink: ~~ ALWAYS Renault ~~ at least there is the 12months warranty on them.
Apologies for hi~jacking the thread.
but the bit you weld only eliminates the play at that point if the weld breaks you get play again. it doesn,t hold the column as thats taken care of buy the shape of the two items. it just replaces the worn rubber isolation.
but the standard of welding does tend to be poor in the car industry full stop.
^^^ I would have thought that if the weld cracked there would just be the initial play again?
I'd imagine theres many an owner with tired columns driving round that don't even know it's actually a tired unit..
Surely welding a column, even if it is not the best idea, would take the strain off the worn rubber and prolong the life? or am I wrong here!
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