View Full Version : Rtuner Mapping
FAO Henk - and anyone else who knows about mapping:
I've been trying to adjust the idle mixture to 14.7 AFR, using TEWBlog for datalogging.
Fig 1. Is the AFR from idle-5000 rpm in neutral
In Rtuner I gradually decreased the fuel cells within the same range and checking for any differences. Eventually I ended of taking 10 off between 1000rpm-2700rpm.
Fig 2. shows the resulting AFRs - Practically the same!
Fig 3. is the fuel map before I made changes- basically it's more-or-less too rich everywhere. The outlined cells are the ones I made changes to.
Henk: do the load cells shown on Rtuner match the actual load on the engine (eg. is 52kPa on the map actually 52kPa?)
Roughly how much should I have to adjust the load cells to make an actual difference to the AFR?
You say that the cells should be adjusted in pairs, but the cells weren't in matched pairs to start off with. Why is this?
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 10:20
now now kj16v why are tu returning my txts or emails? tut tut
now now kj16v why are tu returning my txts or emails? tut tut
Chill Winston! I haven't messed anyone around regarding ECUs, and I'm not going to start now!
PM'd
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 10:46
i know mate, just struggling without use of car. cant see a pm mate..? maybe this site takes ages to pick um up
I just picked up your ECU and I'll be posting it back tomorrow.
Only thing is with this postal strike, you probably won't get it back until at least Wednesday :roll:
You're welcome to come pick it up though.
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 20:16
hi mate, is there any chance u can send by a seperate courier? that way ill get it back quicker, if u cud just let me know how much that is, then Ill paypal u the amount. bit of a pain for u i know, but wud really appreciate it. will it not take u long to do then?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330166575547&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:UK:11
Used em before, very good
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 20:20
lunner once again ur a legend. i know its a bit more of a pain for u kj16v but would mean alot to get ecu back asap...had quite a few lil car niggles recently. (ask lunner). oh by the way so far so good with the lines lunner, just needs a good wash/wax n tidy now!
Good good, mate its easier if he gives you a day when someone will be in,a nd you pay for and arrange the whoe thing, it will be collected from him (if next day you have to book it before 10am) and then its with you in 24 hours
Another one is www.parcel2go.com, about £1 cheaper but its a 2-4 day service rather than a 24hr one, although they ahve an offer on atm i think its £4.99 + vat as opposed to £5.99 due to postal strike
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 20:31
ill pm him see if hes about. if hes around tomorrow, i might be able to get sunday if they do sundays....
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 20:42
royal mail it is then haha
Anyways...back to the orignal thread lol
titcharoony
05-10-2007, 20:50
never!
Yeah serously. You could have PM'd all that :x
Anyway if anyone has anything USEFUL to say on the thread...
is this the same mapping as that big thread on clio sport
sounds like a good set up for the money
if not ? :)
if yes i still dont understand it so cant help lol sorry
What lambda sensor are you using, and have you DEFINATELY got it open loop?
As for MAP value, are you seeing 98-100KPa when the engine is off??
I would think 50-60KPa looks about right for a running engine on closed throttle.
Hi Stan. I'm using a Tech Edge sensor. It's definitely in open-loop - I can tell cuz the engine note changes and the AFR graph bounces up and down when its in closed-loop.
Um I can't remember if I checked whether atmospheric pressure actually read as atmosheric. I'll have to check that tomorrow.
Problem is I don't know if the scale on Rtuner's fuel map is correct - if you see what I mean.
Do the numbers shown on the Rtuner fuel map mean anything to you? How much would you expect to take off the numbers to bring the idle AFR up from 11 to 14.7?
Wavy: Cliosprt thread, eh? I'll have to take a look...
The numbers dont often mean much, they are typically just figures used in algarithyms by the ecu.
I would try in say increments of 2...if nothing, then maybe by 5. You should definately see a change from these.
Are you altering, saving, uploading, and re-starting? as the r-tuner doesnt allow live calibration...
Yeah I uploaded properly. I'm going to play around a bit more today and post up any findings. Cheers Stan
Right. Today I took my consultant motorsport engineer (aka my girlfriend) out on the road with me.
She suggested raising the fuel cell numbers, and lo-and-behold, the AFR actually leaned out. So the higher the number the less fuel goes in. And making significant changes in AFR takes quite large increments in fuel cell numbers - 20's & 50's Could have mentioned that in the instruction manual! :P
So at the moment the AFR whilst cruising at 30 mph (4th gear 30-odd kPa) is approx. 12.9-13.5.
AFR at 70mph is 13.8-14.0 (5th gear 56 kPa) is 13.8-14.0
AFR at full load (147 kPa) is 12.3
What sort of AFR's would you recommend for idle, cruising, and boost? I know that's a difficult question without knowing EGT's etc. but just an estimate.
Henk: today I just raised all the fuel table numbers by approx. 80. Would raising the fuel multi by the same amount have exactly the same effect?
On the ignition table which way should I roll the numbers to retard ignition? Also, does a number 5 in the ignition cell = 5 degrees advance, for example?
On Rtuner's fuel/ignition maps you can change the scale of the load cells, eg. you can change them to say 0-104 kPa, 0-208 kPa.
However, what's in the fuel cells doesn't change. For example, if I changed the load cells to read from0-104, I'd expect the fuel cells to go right off the scale - but the dont. So I want to know is, for example, what Rtuner calls 100kPa, ACTUALLY 100kPa?
I swear I hear detonation when I go above 5000 rpm, but the knock sensor on TEWBlog shows nothing. It's impossible to reach the knock sensor on the manifold to replace it so can anyone recommend a decent, low cost knock detector kit?
Idle afr will depend on the engine..typically you want leaner than stoich to stablise low speed combustion, so around 14:1, though I may go as rich as 12.5:1 on a crazy cammed beast!
Cruising/off boost you can aim for leaner than stoich, tho on a turbo engine you may want to just keep to stoich depending on actual boost figures.
Full load figures will be around 12-12.5:1 for a turbo engine.
Cheers Stan. I think I'll make my own simple knock sensor controller - Just a Bosch sensor, an op-amp, a simple filter, and an LED to indicate?
Can you tell me a few things about knock sensors: How many millivolts do the common Bosch sensors make. What frequency range do I want be looking at?
Just looked in Heywood, its says 5-10KHz. This will vary according to combustion chamber shape/volume/design, fuelling level maybe, and likely the position of the sensor.
Let me know how you get on with your knock gauge...its something ive been meaning to make for a while using the same parts you have listed.
Have you tried making "det-cans"?
Det cans? No, what are they?
very simple, but very effective method of listening for det.
sounds crude, but try it....
getsome 15mm copper tube, about 100mm long. flatten about an inch at one end, and drill a hole through the centre of the flat section. this is your bolt hole to mount it to the head.
now get some old ear defender, and a couple of metres of 10mm ID rubber tube. drill a hole in each ear defender directly behind where your ear hole is.
you want to make a stephoscope set-up so as to have one end of the tube in open end of the copper tube, which is connected to a Y piece, with two bits of tube coming from the ear defenders.
The other thing u could try is a mechanics electronic fault
(rattle/noise) finder.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SEALEY-Electronic-Stethoscope-Kit_W0QQitemZ160124762670QQihZ006QQcategoryZ112565 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
Cheers Stan I looked further into these "det cans" and plans are afoot..!
I was going to map ignition by listening for det, bringing the ignition just below, and then retarding a further 2 deg. for safety. Is this a good enough method (cinsidering it's my only method!), or do I need an EGT sensor? - Not that I can afford to buy one!
To be honest, I wouldnt map ignition without engine torque feedback, i.e. on a dyno. If you do what your saying, you may find that theres still parts that are over-advanced. if your on a dyno, you can see exactly what the engine needs to make max torque. you can up the boost at these points to further overall performance also.
Dammit! So I'll need to find decent tuner, who will touch my ECU, afterall! That's the reason why I did the mapping myself in the first place! :cry:
Would my method be "okay better than nothing" or should I just leave it?
Hey Stan I read up some more on electronic knock detectors and apparantly they don't work all that well. So I decided to go with your electronic stethoscope - and made my own! Waddya think? Not bad for a fiver! 8).
Most of the noise I hear is the cam train clattering away But behind all that, at WOT >5100 rpm, I can hear a sound like rice being fired from a rice-machine gun. Sound like det to you?
Looks cool, whats the lil box thingy.
Yup thats the problem with det detection, theres always other noise interference.
It sounds as if it may be det. With det cans you hear like a light scratch/rattle, BEFORE you get the usual audiable "pinking". sounds similar to what you describing.
Try knocking ign back say 4 degrees, then re-test.
Typically your going to get det where your making peak torque.
simonr85
25-10-2007, 15:19
the little box thingy is a microphone stan with built in headphones
for spying on people 8)
simonr85
25-10-2007, 15:19
oops not spying, prying
bloody edit button :twisted: :evil:
^^ Yep £5 off Ebay. In the pic the headphones are disconnected. I removed the mic and epoxy'd it to the batery clip, then soldered it to the extension cable shown in the pic.
Hey, Stan. I emailed Henk this ages ago but he seems to be on holiday or something :?
I've mapped the engine up to 161kPa. If I reduce the fuel values to 0 that are in the 182kPa and 208kPa load-cells (see the fuel table above), will that work as an overboost fuel-cut - if you get my meaning?
If you put those fuelling sites to 0, you run the risk of running momentarily lean...even though you have cut fuel, theresd a chance of partial (and possibly abnormal) combustion due to residual fuel behind the valves, or even residual gas in the chamber burning off. Thats my take on it anyway, so it wouldnt be something I would do.
More likely I would cut ignition....not just retard it as this could lead to other EGT related issues, but put 0 in the relevant ign loads sites.
Ok, I wondered about putting 0 in the ignition sites. On Rtuner, ignition values = degress advance. Would a 0 definately cut ignition, or would it retard the timing to TDC?
what numbers are in the ignition tables to start with?
This is the original base map. I've only retarded a few sites at the top end
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1784/turboignitionmapgp8.th.jpg (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=turboignitionmapgp8.jpg)
They seem a bit low to be low to be ACTUAL ign figures, but assume they are. Try it with 0 and do a test run?
On a side note, you really want to retard sites where the engine is making peak torque, as this is where det is most likely. It will be quite det-friendly where you have retarded it.
Okay I'll try that at some point.
When I tweaked the ign table I listened with my Harmonic Frequency Detection Instrument (aka. mic-on-a-wire!) and retarded 3-4 deg wherever I heard det, which was from about 5000 rpm - up. I didn't touch the rest of the table.
I'm sure the ign table isn't optimised for power or EGT. Really I need to take it to someone competent with the right equipment to optimise it. Shame you're so far away from me.
How well does ur det detector work?? reckon u could rig it up to a visual display??
'Fraid it's very lo-tech, but effective. It's that device in the photo on page 1. It's a hearing aid-type device. I removed the mic from the box and put in on an extended cable. My headphopnes plug into the box and I can listen into what the engines doing. Basically it's a homemade version of that electronic stethescope you showed me
Originally I was going to make an electronic det detector with an LED display, but I read more into it and apparently they're not very reliable at detecting. I figured nothing beats your own ears! Worked very well.
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