16V love

[Fdl76]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...42589712&type=

[16v_paddy]

Come on Gustavo, a lot of that is bollocks with added marketing bullshit thrown in
In terms of production the engines ARE thrown together as cheaply as possible as they were forced to use as much pre-existing stuff as possible, and the other stuff that's supposedly unique is merely things made from the same blank material but with different numbers put into the CNC machine.

The engineers were given a target cubic capacity to meet and to do it as cheap as possible and using as many off the shelf items as possible. They weren't allowed to go with their preferred specification because it would have been too expensive, that spec only happened when Sodemo were building engines for the BTCC. Their F7R's were a completely different spec as they used a shorter throw crank and even bigger bore - NOT cheap and NOT put together with as many pre-existing parts as possible so the complete opposite to the Williams engine which makes cheap & cobbled together a pretty accurate way to describe it I'd say.

Engine:

Reinforced & bored out block - F7P block is the basis and all they did was add bits of sand to the casting to move the wall of the block out a little bit to give room to accommodate the throw of the diesel crank because it would foul the inside of the block & bored that to a different size

Larger valves - Just inlet valves 1mm bigger & again just a different number punched into whatever machined them ie: don't machine as much material off and machine a little bit more off to cut the valve seat in the head

New camshafts - Revised F7P items to suit the different bore & stroke

New, larger pistons - 0.7mm

New baffled sump - They're not baffled, the P & R's have a slightly different shaped bit of plastic that goes around the oil pump pickup that's it

New tubular exhaust manifold - A flimsy piece of crap that's only fit for the bin, a standard valver manifold is actually an upgrade Hillpower was doing that to F7R's back in the day with proven results

Oil cooler - That'll be the exact same oil cooler that's on the Ph1 Valver

Crankshaft borrowed from the diesel engine

Suspension/chassis:
Reinforced subframe
New shocks - Only to reduce the camber and be a bit softer than on the Cup racer as it's a road car & customers wouldn't like the tyre wear from that
New springs
New suspension arms - R19 items as is the anti-roll bar - AKA Cup racer items. The R19 & Willy arms are actually different but it's only 1 of the holes for the ball joint bolts being drilled in a slightly different position to reduce the castor

Drivetrain:
New reinforced gearbox - I'll give you that, a genuine upgrade but not so special when you consider that it was also for the Megane which was under development at the same time
New driveshafts

Interior and exterior we all know the differences. Small styling differences for marketing purposes to make it look different from the Valver which is virtually identical. Different cloth pattern on what are normal Valver seats, blue carpet and a different coloured background for the dials

Cheaply cobbled together? Not much in it? Come one Paddy! It was a rush job to get 400 of them produced as cheaply and as quickly as possible so they were allowed to use the same dimensions in the rally cars and stay competitive

If Renault would make such an upgrade to their current sporty variants we would all be licking the windows.
They do to an extent and they all fall under a different brand which is Renaultsport

They went as far as they could have gone in 1993 without making it an unviable undertaking.
They only did that with the Rally cars NOT the road cars which is what this whole discussion is about

Saying that there is not much in it and that is was cheaply cobbled together is, in my opinion, a speculation.
Saying that just means that I can see through the clever marketing & say it like it really is. The Williams is based almost entirely on the Cup car but with a 2 litre engine making the same power which Renault had a very small budget & timeframe in which to produce it. Once produced it formed the basis of the rally car which was then modified to the eyeballs to go rallying.
There really is not much in it between the 16v & Williams, admittedly the Williams is a little bit better but in no way is it as big a difference as many people make out, which is why I was bitterly disappointed when I got to drive a Williams for the 1st time

The fact is that all the above gave the Williams a very different character.

This said, I do share the love with the Clio 16V! It is gorgeous and I really would like to have one.

Fdl76, nice to know that you bought the Portuguese Clio 16V, is it an original cup racer? I'm from Portugal and over there people comment it is not. But in the end, who cares, it must be a hoot to drive Well done! Is it already UK registered?

Original Cup Racer is a bit of a grey area tbh. They were all built & started life as normal 1.8 16v road cars apart from the engines being blueprinted to make sure everybody had the exact same thing to keep competition even & fair. No idea if they had the Cup ecu fitted or if that was supplied seperately.

For the UK series, the 1st bunch of cars came off the boat & were parked next to a pile of boxes which had everything in them needed to make them into race cars. Not sure if this applies to the rest of Europe but the Cup Racers predate the normal 16v road cars being available in the UK & are easier to identify, mostly down to the non sunroof shell

[Braddaz1]

Well I think I've made my mind up. If I keep the Cosworth then I'm going to buy a valver as a second toy. If my Cosworth sells then I'll buy the best example of a Williams 1 that I can find. It'll just depend on whether I get any bites on the Cosworth.

[Ayli Carper]

There really is not much in it between the 16v & Williams, admittedly the Williams is a little bit better but in no way is it as big a difference as many people make out, which is why I was bitterly disappointed when I got to drive a Williams for the 1st time


This is such a shame. The thing is, most people on here would be trying it the other way around. As I said, if I was looking for a 205gti, I'd only want to look at 1.6s.

If I was in the market for an old Clio, I'd only be looking at 16vs, or an RSI. I only bought the Williams because it had excellent reviews of its seats and I had a really bad back at the time!

[Fdl76]

[Fdl76]

I can tell you only one thing (as a french man)... get yourself a 16V or a Williams rapidly, because prices will start to shout seriously soon... both models are great fun for so little money... One of my french friend described to me the Clio 16V/Williams as a Swiss knife, she can do it all, track, rally, snow, dry, rain, cold, hot, etc... no excuses for not using it!!!!

[Fdl76]

Took her for a spin yesterday on the dry, mean machine...

[16v_paddy]

If I was in the market for an old Clio, I'd only be looking at 16vs, or an RSI. I only bought the Williams because it had excellent reviews of its seats and I had a really bad back at the time!

Williams & Phase 2 valvers have the same seats and yes they are incredibly comfy. The earlier phase 1 seats really are crap in comparison as I've just remembered now I've started using my J reg this week

[ianbirch]

Williams & Phase 2 valvers have the same seats and yes they are incredibly comfy. The earlier phase 1 seats really are crap in comparison as I've just remembered now I've started using my J reg this week

Yep very true paddy....when I bought my first 16v the seat was so bad for my injured back that I bought this...it is still used today and just as good.

Regards Ian

[Gustavo7]

my comments on your comments in a different color for easier reading (good discussion btw)

Come on Gustavo, a lot of that is bollocks with added marketing bullshit thrown in
In terms of production the engines ARE thrown together as cheaply as possible as they were forced to use as much pre-existing stuff as possible, and the other stuff that's supposedly unique is merely things made from the same blank material but with different numbers put into the CNC machine.

I get your point, but from an engineering point of view, you have to doquite a bit of R&D to come up with those numbers. Valves are easily made wider, but camshafts are a completely different story.

The engineers were given a target cubic capacity to meet and to do it as cheap as possible and using as many off the shelf items as possible. They weren't allowed to go with their preferred specification because it would have been too expensive, that spec only happened when Sodemo were building engines for the BTCC. Their F7R's were a completely different spec as they used a shorter throw crank and even bigger bore - NOT cheap and NOT put together with as many pre-existing parts as possible so the complete opposite to the Williams engine which makes cheap & cobbled together a pretty accurate way to describe it I'd say.

the BTCC engines were of different spec because they could be of different spec. I think you will agree that a larger bore on a road going F7R would mean problem because the headgasket would be too thin between bores. Okay for a race engine which will only run for hours but definitely not a road going car which have to run for years.

Engine:

Reinforced & bored out block - F7P block is the basis and all they did was add bits of sand to the casting to move the wall of the block out a little bit to give room to accommodate the throw of the diesel crank because it would foul the inside of the block & bored that to a different size.
They also integrated reinforcement veins onto the block design to make it stronger, these can be seen on the outside walls. My point is: it's improved and thought of. It all comes down to sand and molten metal in the end because that's how the end result comes to life, but "Just added bit of sand" is a way of understating the thought they put into it.

Larger valves - Just inlet valves 1mm bigger & again just a different number punched into whatever machined them ie: don't machine as much material off and machine a little bit more off to cut the valve seat in the head.
Yes, but would be cheaper to use the F7P valves, just off the shelf, right?

New camshafts - Revised F7P items to suit the different bore & stroke
you cannot machine an F7P camshaft into an F7R item due to lobe design and separation angle, can you? Plus it also had to be designed having it's share of R&D as any other cam. Plus these are wilder than the Megane F7R ones.

New, larger pistons - 0.7mm
Plus different piston rings.

New baffled sump - They're not baffled, the P & R's have a slightly different shaped bit of plastic that goes around the oil pump pickup that's it. That's what I meant, plus the sump is deeper, isnt it?

New tubular exhaust manifold - A flimsy piece of crap that's only fit for the bin, a standard valver manifold is actually an upgrade Hillpower was doing that to F7R's back in the day with proven results
The cast iron manifold is a stronger piece I agree, but very heavy. The tubular Williams manifold reduces weight and was designed to optimise the low end torque delivery nature of the F7R engine, does not surprise me if modyfied (probably higher-revving) engines will benefit from the cast iron manifold. Have anyone fitted an F7P manifold onto a standard williams? Were the results positive or negative?

Oil cooler - That'll be the exact same oil cooler that's on the Ph1 Valver. My bad then, thought the Valver didn't have one!

Crankshaft borrowed from the diesel engine

Suspension/chassis:
Reinforced subframe
New shocks - Only to reduce the camber and be a bit softer than on the Cup racer as it's a road car & customers wouldn't like the tyre wear from that
New springs
New suspension arms - R19 items as is the anti-roll bar - AKA Cup racer items. The R19 & Willy arms are actually different but it's only 1 of the holes for the ball joint bolts being drilled in a slightly different position to reduce the castor

Drivetrain:
New reinforced gearbox - I'll give you that, a genuine upgrade but not so special when you consider that it was also for the Megane which was under development at the same time
New driveshafts

Interior and exterior we all know the differences. Small styling differences for marketing purposes to make it look different from the Valver which is virtually identical. Different cloth pattern on what are normal Valver seats, blue carpet and a different coloured background for the dials. Don't quote me on this but I had my Williams paint thickness measure at 200microns, was told by a person who worked for the automotive industry many years ago as a paint speciliast that the normal would be 70 microns. 200 microns would only be seen on high end cars like ferraris. Now, might be the case that my Wiliams had a paint job but would be intesting to have other cars Paint thickness measured to understand if Renault gave it a high quality paint job or not. (if yes, only W1 maybe?)