Anyone used 20/25mm spacers on rear???

[Geronimo]

Ive got 15mm spacers on the rear of mine, I think you will have to start cutting the arches if you run 25mm.

Saying that they promote understeer is kind of misleading, as although its sort of true, IMHO the standard bias with the williams widetrack is towards oversteer anyway (great for rallying but not so great on trackdays) so the slightly wider rear track brings it more towards neutral than towards understeer I find.

Try it and see though, not exactly a big investment required to find out if you like it or not.

I dont agree, if you find a big carpark and turn the wheel left and hold it there and slowly increase power, what happens? Eventaully the front washes out with understeer.

To say the williams is biased towards oversteer is just wrong imo. All manufacturers of FWD cars bias their cars towarfds understeer for stafety.

[cliokiz]

I've had 20mm spacers on mine previously, with 195/50/15 tyres on valver/clover alloys.

It was at standard ride height, but with people in the back it used to scrub over bumps. I think 10-15mm will be your limit if the car is lowered.

Mine is so low on the back the rim of the Williams alloy is level with the top of the rear arch, and there's not very much clearance between the tyre and the arch (and thats before I attempt to fit 10mm spacers either side!)

I'll report back when i've tried 10mm to see if they'll fit.

[Wobba]

10mm on each side will fit np.

15mm fits too.

20mm may fit but may scrub a bit on bumps.

It increases understeer. It enhances straight line stability (or thats how it felt to me).

[snowman]

Only from the wider wheels.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Gaz (cliolord) actually measured a valver & willy rear beam & said the track width was wider on the willy beam

It was Flan

[MatBrown]

Only from the wider wheels.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Gaz (cliolord) actually measured a valver & willy rear beam & said the track width was wider on the willy beam

It was Flan

And it could have been an Rsi beam.

[chip]

Ive got 15mm spacers on the rear of mine, I think you will have to start cutting the arches if you run 25mm.

Saying that they promote understeer is kind of misleading, as although its sort of true, IMHO the standard bias with the williams widetrack is towards oversteer anyway (great for rallying but not so great on trackdays) so the slightly wider rear track brings it more towards neutral than towards understeer I find.

Try it and see though, not exactly a big investment required to find out if you like it or not.

I dont agree, if you find a big carpark and turn the wheel left and hold it there and slowly increase power, what happens? Eventaully the front washes out with understeer.

To say the williams is biased towards oversteer is just wrong imo. All manufacturers of FWD cars bias their cars towarfds understeer for stafety.

If that is how you drive on track then its YOU that is biased towards understeer not oversteer, pretty much ANY fwd car driven that badly will wash out.
And are you still on factory toe settings cause I sure as hell am not.

Little bit more toe out than standard helps with the turn in no end IME, but a side effect of this is the rear being much more likely to come around under trail braking, a bit of that is good, but if you have the car stripped out (we're talking trackday handling here so seems a safe assumption) it can be more than is ideal, so a little wider track on the back can help it be that little bit easier to work with without it oversteering too much.

But we all drive cars differently at the end of the day, handling is a personal preference, so like I said, he should just try it on track with and without spacers and see which he prefers, personally I prefer it with, but he might not.

[Geronimo]

If that is how you drive on track then its YOU that is biased towards understeer not oversteer, pretty much ANY fwd car driven that badly will wash out.
And are you still on factory toe settings cause I sure as hell am not.

Sorry, when i mentioned 'Williams' i assume everyone would realise that i was talking about a standard Williams, but i guess unless i S P E L L I T O U T, there will always be someone who twists the discussion to fit their own highly modified car.

Little bit more toe out than standard helps with the turn in no end IME, but a side effect of this is the rear being much more likely to come around under trail braking, a bit of that is good, but if you have the car stripped out (we're talking trackday handling here so seems a safe assumption) it can be more than is ideal, so a little wider track on the back can help it be that little bit easier to work with without it oversteering too much.

What has this go to do with widening the rear track causing understeer? Now you are talking about toe in / toe out. Is this deliberate obfusaction? Throw enough technical terms about and hope no one will notice you got it wrong?

But we all drive cars differently at the end of the day, handling is a personal preference, so like I said, he should just try it on track with and without spacers and see which he prefers, personally I prefer it with, but he might not.

We do all drive cars differently yes, but it doesnt hide the fact that widening the rear of the car will induce more understeer and decrease sharpness to the steering. Just like i said. It also doesnt hide the fact that factory standard Williams come with slight U N D E R S T E E R because ALL fwd cars do, as a safety feature to prevent people spinning into trees.

I am sure you will now attack me personally, call for me to be banned, or just make a joke of it,. just like most people do when they post shite and i pull them up on it.

[chip]

If you look at his original post he said:

Hi guys, I keep looking at the rear of my Williams and no matter how much I look the rear end is just too narrow. As in the rear wheels need to be closer to the arches like the front. Why didn't Renault widen the rear track as well as the front??
I'm going to add some wheel spacers around 20-25mm so the rear track looks wider. May help with L I F T O F F O V E R S T E E R also? What do you all thing? AnyOne else done this???

So why you keep banging on and on about P O W E R O N U N D E R S T E E R is beyond me?


If you want to talk about power on understeer then im sure others will be interested so start a thread about it but this thread is V E R Y C L E A R L Y about L I F T O F F O V E R S T E E R


And nothing in my posts is wrong at all, its all an accurate description of the effects I have felt on my own car as he was specifically after the opinions of people who have tried this modification which I have.
By definition that rules out S T A N D A R D williams as you keep banging on about as if it was standard it wouldnt have spacers now would it?


I was talking about toe in and toe out as it is so relevent to any discussion about a car oversteering or understeering when you lift off, if the thread starter hasnt considered the effects of it then I was prompting him to do so, if he has considered it then I was putting my findings based on trying the spacers (he wanted to know about people who actually have tried the spacers) in terms of the other mod on the car that would greatly effect this aspect of handling, if I didnt mention that, then somebody would assume I was refering to a standard car perhaps to which my results wouldnt be as directly relevant ;)

Ie I was putting my own tests into context for him so he can decide if they are relevant to him or not, and if the arent to him then they may be to others.

[Geronimo]

You were doing what many so called 'experts' do on forums wich is hiding your lack of knowledge on a subject with deliberate obfuscation and misleading ambiguity.

The fact reamins that fitting wider rear track to a fwd car will induce understeer. It really cant be any clearer that that can it?

If you want to induce lift off oversteer there is a far easier way. Just fit harder less grippy tyre to the rear.

[chip]

You were doing what many so called 'experts' do on forums wich is hiding your lack of knowledge on a subject with deliberate obfuscation and misleading ambiguity.

Absolutely not, you have misinterpreted what I was saying.
And furthermore it is YOU that seem to have a lack of knowledge on the subject as you seem to have read somewhere that a wider track "induces understeer" and you just keep repeating it for every scenario wether it is appropriate or not, where as in my case I am talking specifically aboutthe context in which he is asking the question and my answer is based on experience of developing various cars during 15 years of trackdays, and a fairly good grounding in suspension geometry theory (I have been professionally published on the subject, so certainly am more than an average layperson although I wouldnt claim to actually be an expert)

The fact reamins that fitting wider rear track to a fwd car will induce understeer. It really cant be any clearer that that can it?

Actually thats not correct, what you are doing is changing the balance of the car, it will make the car more likely to understeer than before if you widen the rear track (on any car) and it will make it less likely to oversteer if you widen the rear track, but wether that changing in balance actually goes as far as to induce understeer or wether it just lessens oversteer is entirely dependant on the application in terms of the car itself and what you are doing with it at the time.

In this case he was SPECFICALLY talking about how the car behaves when he lifts off the throttle on turn in and it currently oversteers in that situation.
And the reality is that if he fits the spacers, it will STILL oversteer in that situation, but just slightly less so.
So in fact it will NOT "induce understeer" for the specific application he is referring to it will merely damp out some of the oversteer.

If you want to induce lift off oversteer there is a far easier way. Just fit harder less grippy tyre to the rear.

He doesnt want to induce lift off oversteer, he wants to lessen lift off oversteer and an easy way to do that is to widen the rear track like he is suggesting!