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View Full Version : Engine Rebuild/Refurb proj in summer



Jamie.
16-03-2006, 19:52
Okay,as some of u know i want to refurb the engine in the summer (prob end of). Now i have a family member who is a mechanic who will help me with this project, so im not sure whether to source a new engine or rebuild mine. some ppl have said lightend and balanced b/e does nothing others say it makes a big diff as u dont shave much off the crank? so im perplexed by this, since it costs such an amazing amount of money. my ideal rebuild would constitute, rebuild bottom end with new seals etc, poss a bought one (b/e) if cheeper, ported/gas flowed head, cams/pulleys (not kent) and a remap. the point of doing this is not soley for power but because i want a mint new engine where the miles wouldnt bother me, i love the car and will never sell anyway. also the car needs a new subframe as that is rustin badly in parts, so id get a new one powdercoated blue as well.
now money is an issue but as ive found out its alot cheaper to get things rebuilt/fixed if u only send away that specific part, i aint using any "specalists" like ktec or bb for this work as they are friggin con artists, i think depending on spec i want i reckon that i will spend anywhere up to 1500 max. chatting to most ppl and they seem to quote 850 for a rebuilt b/e but im not sure whether to bother with lightening etc (?) as that is the most costly bit. i was budgeting 500 bottom, 500 top, and 500 bits and bobs e.g new clutch etc etc, if it ends up being extremly exp i may just work on one bit at a time, e.g sort bottom out and get head work and cams done later since that bit will be so much easier to do.....

opinions please........ i'll be in manchester when doing this so lookout n/w boys :twisted:

FATBOY
16-03-2006, 20:00
good luck mate! rather you than me!

Zollo
16-03-2006, 20:05
A welcome vote of confidence from Fatboy. Nice! :wink:

Coops
16-03-2006, 20:20
sweet mate!! big job but very rewarding!!i'll swing by n chip in mate!! 8)

FATBOY
16-03-2006, 20:24
sorry mate! im just not that technically minded! and as soon as i open the bonnet on my willy it looks oh so confusing to me!

Coops
16-03-2006, 20:25
sorry mate! im just not that technically minded! and as soon as i open the bonnet on my willy it looks oh so confusing to me!

me too mate about 6 months ago, all u gotta do is dig in!! 8)

Jamie.
16-03-2006, 20:27
right................

lightened and balanced bottom end..... worth it? yes/no?

vs just rebuild with new seals and inspection?

Coops
16-03-2006, 20:29
if i had the option to rebuild at my own pace man i'd go full fat, lightened n balanced everything!! :twisted:

Jamie.
16-03-2006, 20:35
well there is going to be a limit..... cant do that much other than fully strip because i aint ever gona buy the tools......... would be aiming for around 180-200bhp tho :wink:

stew
16-03-2006, 20:58
Well imo....

(and ive spent a while pricing up engine rebuilds!)

You will struggle to get it rebuilt with cams, headwork, and remap for 1500.

If you can get the crank, conrods and flywheel balanced and lightened. This involves reducing the weight of these components while keeping them the same weight i.e each conrod should weigh exactly the same!

Are you getting the bores on the bottom end re-lined?

The lightening and balancing should only be around 500 quid tops, so worth doing.

Headwork will be around 400-600 depending whos doing it. Remember someone with a good reputation for headwork is essential to go to, otherwise you will see losses rather than gains!

Cams - piper are around 500, AWT about the same, no idea for catcams. These are the ONLY 3 to use imo.

Pulleys - again awt, piper, or catcams - around 200 quid.

Hydraulic tappets - worth getting new ones - around 200 notes (although im enquiring about some that i can get for 60 quid, but not sure if they are the genuine thing!)

Remap - around 300-400 quid!

Remember you will need to pay for the gaskets, oil, filters, plugs, leads which all add up!

Good luck with it anyway, but id almost double your budget for everything done you want unless you can get things way cheaper than i can!

Your main expense is headwork, cams and remap, and for those alone you are looking at the best part of 2k all in, including labour!

Jamie.
16-03-2006, 21:00
right, so thats more like 2k ish, hmmmmmmm have to see.

Martin
16-03-2006, 21:02
I'd recommmend a lightened/balanced flywheel makes a difference on mine imo

stan
16-03-2006, 21:05
to get that sort of power on a standard manifold, you will need decent head work, inc larger valves, and a decent set of cams.

i can supply catcams camshafts at a good price (and pulleys)

as for lighten/balance...i have done mathematical analysis of this type of work, and basically, there is little/no influence on any stress fluctuations....the theory behind it is that reduced stress on components and a "smoother engine" allows higher rpm and more force to be applied to the components i.e. more power. relatively speaking, there is no real power gain. however as always, its about parascopic losses, and this type of work is standard prodcedure in developing a decent engine....

MattyH16valver
16-03-2006, 21:10
Which company generally has the best track record for cams in the F7R willy engine? Heard its best to stick away from Kent cams?

Jamie.
16-03-2006, 21:10
right so if it looks right, sack it off then as u can do better things elsewhere for the money

Martin
16-03-2006, 21:12
Whats the deal with catcams then stan? What duration do they do and what sort of prices? I have'nt heard much about them compared to kent/piper etc

Your's up and running yet?

stan
16-03-2006, 21:28
the cams come in various off-the-shelf specs...check out the website www.catcams.be

mine is about to have the engine removed, fitting a new oil pump and some H section rods :wink:
depending how busy i am, will be on the road within 2-3 weeks.

vala
16-03-2006, 22:10
just to let you know there's a company called vulcan engineering in middlesex ( i think) who do l&b'ing....
....charge £200 to lighten and balance everything, £120 to stress relieve con rods and £?? for the flywheel.....have been used by a few r5gtt owners with no complaints. think poss the flywheel is inc in the £200 price. not too sure though.

i believe the company itself does lots of work with race cars...
....just another option for you I guess.

Jamie.
16-03-2006, 23:09
seems a fairly std price, although id prefer to go with someone i know with exp and who i can badger if summit goes wrong pmsl

clowo16v
17-03-2006, 01:29
If you want the bottom end lightened and balanced EDA in Castleford will do all apart from lightening the flywheel for £55. They'll be able to tell you where to get the flywheel done they just don't do it as lightened ones have a habit of exploding.

See ya

Matt

2 live
17-03-2006, 09:06
minisport/powerzone also do the balancing for £60....thats a full balance tho.as stan said, the lightening part of it isnt really worth the money imo....and a couple technician/engineers opinions too.



think it was over 600 from gdi .......that inc fully knife edged crank too...like its possible lmao

Coops
17-03-2006, 10:11
with lightening and balancing, is it simle enough to do yourself with some accurate scales n a load of sandpaper?! i know the rough principals of it and rekon if i wanted a blag i'd have a go myself!

someone on retrorenault was doing it iirc?

2 live
17-03-2006, 10:15
the trick is lightening it without weakening it. there are some obvious points for shedding weight without losing strength, but best off left to someone who actually knows wot they doin imo.


balancin is easy enough , but again, best off left to those who do this evry day imo.

Coops
17-03-2006, 10:17
mmmm fair enough, so am likely to make a mess? i like to learn tho but at same time i dont wanna go blowin my engine up after a rebuild!! :wink:

was more thinkin bout balancing than lightening, seems easier! 8) lightening seems like a bit of a minefield like you said about weakening the metal etc.

2 live
17-03-2006, 10:28
im all for givin stuff a go urself mate.......but im also for lightening/speeding up the workload lol. for th ecost its not worth u doin tbh, mite as well let someone who has all the correct machinery, and probably excellent scales do the work.....imo


when i built mine up, the rods pistons were all weighed etc...there was less than 0.05 grammes between the lightest and heaviest.....so if all are the same, is there really any point?

mite be worth jus weighin all ur components etc b4 u decide if any work is ness.


i couldve had about a kilo-kilo n 1/2 shaved of the flywheel, weighed in at 6.3 kgs with all bolts iirc.....think the lightened ones are summat like 5.5kgs....so i didnt really see the point for the minimal loss tbh.

Coops
17-03-2006, 10:30
ah well, i'll have a think at anyrate n like u said weigh up before hand!! just fancy doing a proper proper job of a meggi b/e so time isnt an issue, wud be a hobby project really not a deadline job! 8)

stan
17-03-2006, 11:36
with lighten and balancing, you usually do the following: balance rods/pistons weight for weight between each other, and end for. this can be done by yourself if you so wished. howevre, the term lightening in this area is misleading, as there is little point lightening these components, unless you can counter-balance the crank. you can also stress relieve components: remove casting flash/marks to reduce stress concentration.

the bits that cant be done at home are lightening and dynamically balancing the flywheel, and dynamically balancing the crank (along with clutch cover +pulleys+bolts). for this you need a precision balancing rig. the bloke that does this work for me (dynamic balancing) has a rig that was originally made for balancing turbines....so its 'x' times more accurate than most other equipment....

Coops
17-03-2006, 13:04
i got access to a 0.000001 g balance through my old work so thats not a problem!! but cuz am pretty much clueless mite have to contract out!! am just toying with idea for now anyway, i got house n job to sort yet!!

cheers for your advice tho lads! 8)

Tommo
17-03-2006, 13:17
Jamie

What's wrong with the current engine mate, seems a big hassle and cost if there's nothing wrong with it?

I'd probably take mine to Hill Power for a rebuild as I know fook all about mechanics, well only the basics really!!

Zollo
17-03-2006, 13:20
Jamie, if I were you I'd just get the engine refurbed. Don't bother with the L n B and the head work because you'll only maybe get 10bhp (I'm guessing?). If you want more power, cams are the best value way of getting it. You'll get 180bhp from a healthy engine and cams/remap, and that should end up costing slightly less than 1500 quid, doing it all yourself.

With the money you've saved not doing the head work and L n B, you can get all the engine n 'box mounts change/uprated and work on renewing all of the suspension. You'll have a better car overall as a result 8)

stan
17-03-2006, 13:30
to get the best from a cam, you need headwork, conversley, to get the best from headwork, you need a decent cam

Coops
17-03-2006, 13:31
you need a decent cam

or two! :wink: :P

stan
17-03-2006, 13:33
LOL just been pricing up an A series build...hence singular! doh!

Coops
17-03-2006, 13:48
lol

clowo16v
17-03-2006, 14:15
I think that for £55 to £60 you might aswell get the bottom end l&b as it lets the engine rev a bit freer and you get less wear on the bearings. If you don't it done i'd defientley invest in an ARP stud kit as this will allow you to up the rev limit a bit.

I'm still contemplating fitting a dry sump to mine as i've got the bits to do it off my dads old 21 turbo. Its either that or fit a windage tray which stops the crank splashing round in the sump oil.

See ya

Matt

2 live
17-03-2006, 19:03
the baffles are pretty good in the sump mate.....the crank isnt in the oil all that much.....and theres practically nowt on th ecrank to take off.


def not knife edgin etc tho.