View Full Version : How much power from a standard 1.8 on tb's
clowo16v
24-01-2006, 19:48
Anybody know a general figure for how much extra power you'd get from fitting throttle bodies?
I would've thought around 160bhp on a standard motor?
See ya
Matt
i wudda said somewhere round the 20-30 extra bhp mark yeah.
clowo16v
24-01-2006, 20:53
Mite build a tb'd 1.8 for the clio then using the bottom end I've got for the supercharged engine I was building, but with standard pistons (I've not got enough money for a s/c engine btw).
Got a nice head aswell so even with standard cams it should be ok. Probably use the GSXR 1000 tb's I used on my XE and the megasquirt ECU.
See ya
Matt
How much are boddies?
It's quite a fair increase for the time being I suppose - and always transferable :twisted:
pricey matey, lookin at 2000 i'd guess! depends tho as cud DIY but no idea how much parts cost!
clowo16v
24-01-2006, 21:24
The bodies on my XE were £85 and the megasquirt ECU + setting up was £350.
See ya
Matt
cams and headwork is the future......
and future filled with £££ notes flying away from me..... :shock:
The joys of owning a money drain!!!
I love it though! :wink: :twisted:
Has anyone actually had worthwhile results with headwork on these engines though??
Has anyone actually had worthwhile results with headwork on these engines though??
What the 1.8's?
1.8 or 2.0 I'm not aware of any?
nowt without forced induction i dont think, think its even minimal with bodies aint it?iirc
there are gains to be had from headwork.
especially on the 1.8 heads.
apparently the willy heads are harder to work, but gains can be had!
if your taking the head off to stick cams in, it would be rude not to port it!
if anything it will remove any imperfections created during the casting process....of which there are always some...so improving gasflow.
I know the theory but I'm not convinced after previous experiences...I wait with interest Stew hopefully your will prove me wrong.
hopefully Chris_H can work his magic on it, we should see some nice gains. If not gains then smoother running and increased efficency. Like i say heads coming off so it be rude not to!
I'll try and get chris to take pics before and after etc...
Itching to get it started now...but need the car for the next few months...only after april can i have a break from her until the work is complete!
:wink:
I know the theory but I'm not convinced after previous experiences...I wait with interest Stew hopefully your will prove me wrong.
previous experiences? tell thee all?
Nah not gonna dig up old news...lets just say I need convincing about forking out for it.
Nah not gonna dig up old news...lets just say I need convincing about forking out for it.
tbf martn didnt your old williams run piper 285 degree cams aswell? which imo are bit to top endy for a williams/2.0! ???
what was it running then?
petty much the same as evryone else mate...260-270s......
as for head work.........depends whos done it as to whether it works or not..........jesus' seems to :wink:
lol, your convinced about that aint ya!? mine's just a quickun mate... 28k engine prolly helps? Martins old car was flowed, as is the engine I got for Wayne, but I cant see it making any difference, the engine Wayne is getting still only performs like most of the 2.0's with cams out there... tbh your wasting your time and money according to the experts... have to say I agree with them, never seen any improvement on head worked cars over ones without.
martin's willy cams were piper 270's weren't they? that's the problem with that car imo, the cams are too lairy, not the bottom end being fooked, as it was deffo a quickun, but those cams require 8k rpm... well, Kents of same duration do... so that could be the reason if they only rev to 7ish
yes mate im convinced
lol
a month + to fit cams?????? lol...1/2 days work.
ur comments on wot the guys at warrington said kinda confirmed it for me tho.....nice clean shiny head.....after 70k miles or woteva....not gunna happen lol.
78k actually...
it's just so when I get me remap and sail past you between 120 and 130 you have an excuse... Jesus had more mods than me :roll: :wink: :lol: pmsl
lmao..may happen now like..buty u will have more mods.
wouldnt have happened before tho ;)
If you guys look on retro renault at the 1.8 heads that Chris_H has done you will see the poor renault casting of the heads. Removing these lumps, bumps, crappy angles will all improve gasflow of the head. In conjunction to a free flowing manifold, and air filter (and if both the inlet and exhaust manifolds ahev been ported to match the cylinder head then there is surely gains to be had. Probably not massive, but worth doing IMO.
Ive read up a fair bit about it....and also using my limited (3rd Year Undergratuate Knowledge) of thermodynamics and gas flow, there should be gains to be had.
Would be good if Chris_H or BenR gave some info....but they wont say nowt negative about it because its where they make their money. It's a highly skilled process and if not done properly will be detrimental to engine performance rather than a positive!
Isn't the head ports martched to the inlet/axhaust manifolds rather then the other way around
only heads iv ever bothered with were mini heaads....used to see some good gains too...but was all trial and error on £5 heads lol........never really bothered with the valver/willy heads tbh, but ben tells me its easier to get good gains out of em than it is to get the gains out the minis ......so it cant be that hard to do.....may give it a go when i have more time lol
Isn't the head ports martched to the inlet/axhaust manifolds rather then the other way around
:oops: Thats what i meant! Tis too early in the morning for my brain to be working properly!!!! :wink:
3 hours of 3D CAD drawing ahead of me......... :(
lmao..may happen now like..buty u will have more mods.
wouldnt have happened before tho ;)
will happen, would have happened, FCS you were upto spec, just 1 up on me... , only 1 car in it on std limiter tho ;)
Stew, Ben will prolly tell you it's not worth it mate, the heads flow and are made well, it's the design thats pants...
well meddy clios 1.4 rt gained 13bhp on the rollers when I done th ework on his head.
The williams and 1.8 do benefit from head work.
heres a meg head I done a quick job on (not full out race jobby, just a quick bit of porting for not much cash)
before
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2002.JPG
after
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2003.JPG
same as above but from cylinder
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2004.JPG
after
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2005.JPG
short turn radius on it before
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2006.JPG
after
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2007.JPG
better pic
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/meg%20porting%2008.JPG
that was my lowest price bracket job and hes now getting 5mpg more all the time and it will not go over 135mph.
laguna 2 l head (same as the RSI)
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/lag%20ports%2001.jpg
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/lag%20ports%2002.jpg
after
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/lag%20ports%2004.jpg
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/lag%20ports%2006.jpg
from the manifold face
http://www.renault-turbo.com/chris/lag%20ports%2010.jpg
i just done the inlet side on that but it allowed the engine to rev much quicker and it did go better, my sisters car and she was happy with the extra omph.
I know the megane heads can see good gains, but what sort do you think you can get on a Willy then Chris? (bhp wise...)
depends on the original casting. I have 1.8 pics somewhere cannae find the damn things though!
But on some rought heads you could gain maybe 15 horses, I have an especially shite head in my flat, the casting is very poor, the injectors exit hole and port heights vary more than 5mm from one end to the other!
Anybody know a general figure for how much extra power you'd get from fitting throttle bodies?
I would've thought around 160bhp on a standard motor?
See ya
Matt
would you see more gain with TB on the F7R than on the F7P?....iv heard that up to 50bhp can be gained, not sure wether this is wiv cams etc though?
Chris with the no nonesense approach as always! 8)
Love to see his handywork. He showed me docs 1.8 16v head a while back. Looked top notch! :D
Im sure you will probably gain more std v's std - F7R v's F7P on boddies alone, but IMO you need cams and remap to see some good gains.
i'm not gonna do TB's next, fancy something a bit different, fancy over 200bhp on std inlet first really... i want a bottom end that can hold some serious revs, then your not limited to what you can do...
i'm not gonna do TB's next, fancy something a bit different, fancy over 200bhp on std inlet first really... i want a bottom end that can hold some serious revs, then your not limited to what you can do...
wot mods can u do though that will gain u 50bhp without turbs or TBs?
well, not many really, ideally an F7R should be making over 150bhp as standard anyway, my old engine made 156atf with a HUGE flat spot due to the diesel gearbox, which was amazing really... cams will give you about 30 in total with the usual breathing mods, but a good bottom end should see the rest really and allow you to make the power for longer in each gear... which in theory would be a massive benefit.
freebone16v
25-01-2006, 12:33
this is quite an interesting topic..even though i don't know loads about engines...am trying to learn...for what its worth theres a chap on cs doing headwork relativly cheap now...his name is Danpl6
hmm, be wary of anyone offering 'cheap' headwork... Gunner went that route and they cracked the head, hair line fracture in it... personally i'd avoid or go to someone like Ben or Chris who know what they are doing.
Dan is? wee bastard, I'm off to have a word on retro!
lol, fight in the highlands?
VIPERONE
25-01-2006, 19:15
hmm, be wary of anyone offering 'cheap' headwork... Gunner went that route and they cracked the head, hair line fracture in it... personally i'd avoid or go to someone like Ben or Chris who know what they are doing.
Nah.. i bought the head from winston,,, the head was done by Prima racing originally and placed on an r19 16v.. unfortunately the car was stolen recovered.. and proabaly cooked the head and cracked it!
i still got it.. can be fixed.
well spose that's not too bad then. ideally a completely re-designed head would be better... lol willy ones don't seem to be rate flexible... :(
Gaurantee you a full bore 35mm big valve race head that i didnt touch jesus's at all!
I was busy cleaning up after myself. :oops:
yes mate im convinced
lol
a month + to fit cams?????? lol...1/2 days work.
ur comments on wot the guys at warrington said kinda confirmed it for me tho.....nice clean shiny head.....after 70k miles or woteva....not gunna happen lol.
I know the megane heads can see good gains, but what sort do you think you can get on a Willy then Chris? (bhp wise...)
The main issue with gains on the willy head is that it is machined from the factory on the short side and has marginally larger inlet valves. In the stock states, the willy head has the advantage as the machining does improve on a bare casting....BUT...when it comes to porting a head, you want a 1.8 as this has more 'meat' on the short side turn, allowing you to really do what is needed shape and size wise. THe williams basically has too much material removed from the short side, and if you do too much to the short side, you'll kill the head.
big-valves all the way!
mines on the mend, so should have some power figure (finally) within the next week or so
Someone asked what gains you'll get with TBs. The answer is most likely not much - unless its allied with headwork and cams. The aim of any power mod is to allow the engine to suck in more air. Carbs or TB's can't really do much by themselves - depending on the car. They are just tubes with flappy bits on them at the end of the day!
Carbs and TBs are however more flexible than single throttle body injection, so you can go as far as you want with them.
They increase the efficieny of the head regardless of other modifications, so yes, they will give a gain on their own. however, to get the maximum from any engine, you have to treat it as a sytem...t.b's are only one part of the sytem. the rest of the induction needs modifying along with several other main areas to maximise the sytem.
They increase the efficieny of the head regardless of other modifications, so yes, they will give a gain on their own. however, to get the maximum from any engine, you have to treat it as a sytem...t.b's are only one part of the sytem. the rest of the induction needs modifying along with several other main areas to maximise the sytem.
basicly what stan is trying to say is stop being so tight and do it right! :lol:
chris mate, if the 2.0 rt laguna head is the same as rsi can u just plug and play a 2.0 laguna engine into a clio? as i got my guna comin off the road soon and the guys at LTR want it but if i can use the engine for an interesting all be it short lived project (engine doen 140+ k!!) i may keep it!!
Coops
Gaurantee you a full bore 35mm big valve race head that i didnt touch jesus's at all!
I was busy cleaning up after myself. :oops:
you make it sound like you have one spare just lying about! is it up for grabs? :D
clowo16v
26-01-2006, 12:03
I was just wondering really as i've got the kit lying about from the XE I built. The XE's make about 175bhp just with tb's on a standard engine.
See ya
Matt
XE's should be making close to 200 on just TB's.
Jon, wish i had one lying around, but i'm up in the air as to what i'm gonna do to my valver for a laugh and a funcar.
hmm, i'm thinking big valve head and fully forged in hell bottom end... rev'ing to 9k+.... or could just do the obvious and get a Willy bottom end... okay, I know your not into the idea as it's not very original, but screw that, they tune up FAR better as you know! lol
XE's should be making close to 200 on just TB's.
Jon, wish i had one lying around, but i'm up in the air as to what i'm gonna do to my valver for a laugh and a funcar.
is this on the 1.8 or 2ltr?
clowo16v
26-01-2006, 18:41
2 litre will make around 200bhp if set up correctly, however it takes a lot of work to get them right. Even the 208bhp SBD kit usually doesn't give that much power.
The 1.6 gives 175bhp ish when set up perfectly.
I would've thought that with the rev limit on a standard but l&b bottom end and ARP bolts at 7400rpm, and a set of tb's I should get 170bhp ish, for cheaper than it is to do a 2.0 conversion.
See ya
Matt
your kidding right? 2.0 conversion's £700 drive in drive out, place in Warrington I use. bottom end is prolly £400 alone for pistons, god knows what l&b would cost, but it would also be a very peaky unit still... low down grunt makes for easier driving imo.
yep, you may aswell t.b a 2.0 lump....
or at least standard manifold and decet cams...will see the same gains as your expecting from your 1.8, but wi more torque
clowo16v
26-01-2006, 20:54
Well tb's will be free bar mapping and making a manifold (which I can get done for about £20) seen as they are sitting on the floor of my flat. 1.8 engine & box are free, l&b and and the building of the bottom end is basically the cost of bearings & gaskets as my mate will do the work for me after hours.
I've got a new passat tdi rad which is shorter but a bit wider than the Clio rad that i'll fit to give more room for the tb's. I'll sort the bonnet out myself and put a front vent in etc. Probably run without a front grille.
Gonna take it off the road for a few months to do all this, as I need to sort the rust out aswell and raise the rear up about 15mm.
See ya
Matt
well then if its not gonna cost all that much mate, you really should consider splashing out 200-400 on a 2.0 lump......
clowo16v
26-01-2006, 21:24
Im a student mate I haven't got the £300-400 spare lol. I'm just thinking of the cheapest way to make a decent amount of power. The XE I built made 236bhp ATW on Jenvey tb's when fitted in one of my mates Corsa rally car. I was gonna fit it in a Nova but he offered me good money for it so I sold the engine. Didn't expect that much power from it tbh it was built from mainly 2nd hand bits, only problem was I didn't have the money to buy the driveshafts and gearbox needed to take the power :-(
I'm practicing working on engines in my spare time. I built gearboxes for a couple of years and i've done a few standard rebuilds on my own engines, but i'm learning all the ins and outs of making them go faster. Got a 1740cc Ford X-flow to build at the minute, just hope I don't have an inspection on my student flat soon, don't think they'd be happy with the half built engine and loads of bits in it lol.
See ya
Matt
your kidding right? 2.0 conversion's £700 drive in drive out, place in Warrington I use. bottom end is prolly £400 alone for pistons, god knows what l&b would cost, but it would also be a very peaky unit still... low down grunt makes for easier driving imo.
Where is this bloody place! so £700 is an all in figure is it? take the car in pay £700 and out it comes with a 2.0l?
i managed to do my F7R build (except t.b's and ecu) when i was at uni....but yes i know times can be hard!
lol, we had my mates front room stripped of all furniture...that was our engine room. built our race engine in there!!
clowo16v
26-01-2006, 22:09
LOL i've screwed some 3x2 under my desk to strengthen it and i'm using that lol. Got an engine stand for the actual building tho, and a modified shopping trolley to get it into the lifts and out of the building as i'm on the 1st floor lol.
All good fun, just a shit when I trip over something when i'm pissed lol.
See ya
Matt
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