View Full Version : Camber
How does this affect the handling of a car. Since I've owned mine I've always noticed the front wheel have a slight camber. Looking thru the history folder last night I noticed that the original owner specifically had the front wheels adjusted to 2 1/4 degrees (front left) and 1 3/4 degrees ( front right) Just wondered what benefits this has other than wearing out tyres quicker!!
In standard form there is no camber adjustment available.If he has had it set then he has used camber bolts or adjustments on the top mounts or some other dodgy method.
As for the handling benefits havent a clue.But i think i can safely say you aint gonna better standard form without replacing suspension components with after market products.
I take it your readings are negative and not +?
dont think they have used dodgy methods fab
tommo - does it say how the camber was fitted / altered ?
He's actually drawn a diagram of it, looks like a camber bolt on the struts. It has adjustable Koni susp all round which Prima set up and looks like they set the camber as well. He used to use the car for Hill climbing and sprints so must be some benefit?
Doesn't specify if the readings are negative or positive fab
You can get a hell of a lot more grip for track use with the standard setup simply by elongating the shock mount holes and experimenting
Swervin_Mervin
13-12-2005, 17:11
It works quite simply Tommo. If you're wheel is leaning in at the top, as you corner and the car tries to lean, the force transmitted throught the suspension will now be acting more through the axis of the strut, aiding effiency of the strut. It should also place less lateral loading on the tyres, which should result in relatively reduced tyre wall flex.
All this means you can then go even quicker before the tyre breaks away.
Presumably the difference between left and right is to account for more corners in one direction, trading off the straight line grip with cornering grip.
Sorry i didnt meen dodgy in a bad sense :wink: :D
Its just that I have had a bad experience with a camber problem recently and even had bolts shipped over from K-Tec.
I really did not want to take a chance with them.Luckily it got sorted without having to resort to using them.
It dont seem right to me when you see in detail how they work.
Didnt know Koni did a suspension kit for the Willy?
Must be negative for it to benefit Tommo.Look from the front of the car and notice if the wheel is tilting in at the top towards the engine bay.this is negative.
It works quite simply Tommo. If you're wheel is leaning in at the top, as you corner and the car tries to lean, the force transmitted throught the suspension will now be acting more through the axis of the strut, aiding effiency of the strut. It should also place less lateral loading on the tyres, which should result in relatively reduced tyre wall flex.
All this means you can then go even quicker before the tyre breaks away.
Presumably the difference between left and right is to account for more corners in one direction, trading off the straight line grip with cornering grip.
Cheers Mervin, well explained mate, makes sense now!
Sorry i didnt meen dodgy in a bad sense :wink: :D
Its just that I have had a bad experience with a camber problem recently and even had bolts shipped over from K-Tec.
I really did not want to take a chance with them.Luckily it got sorted without having to resort to using them.
It dont seem right to me when you see in detail how they work.
Didnt know Koni did a suspension kit for the Willy?
Must be negative for it to benefit Tommo.Look from the front of the car and notice if the wheel is tilting in at the top towards the engine bay.this is negative.
Yep it tilts in at the top mate
hows the steering on it Tommo?is it straight and does the car camber left or right easily on the road?Just asking out of curiosity.
can u get to scann his drawing in tommo ??
It seems to be spot on fab, totally straight.
I haven't access to a scanner northy but will photocopy it and bring it to the meet with me
its pretty much as i thought Tommo.the camber settings you gave us are an ideal setting.they are slightly more positive on the near side to allow for camber on the road.Perfect.
Tricky,personally I havent tried the camber bolts so dont know the benefit but a statement such as "a hell of a lot more grip for track use"needs to be backed up by fact.
Swervin_Mervin
13-12-2005, 19:11
It's his o/s that's more +ve. Nowt to do with camber I reckon, and all to do with hillclimbing setup. If you do more right handers than left then you want more camber on that side and leave a bit less on the right in order to maximise contact patch for the tyre.
^^That's all guessing BTW. :P
I give up! :D
Either way hes out half a degree which is within the tolerance levels on the databank which states max difference of 1 degree + or -.
Anyways heres an article on camber i found
What's the downside to negative camber? Negative camber leans both tires on the axle towards the center of the vehicle. Each tire develops an equal and offsetting "camber thrust" force (the same principle that causes a motorcycle to turn when it leans) even when the vehicle is driven straight ahead. If the vehicle encounters a bump that only causes one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's negative camber will push the vehicle in the direction of the tire that lost grip. The vehicle may feel more "nervous" and become more susceptible to tramlining. Excessive camber will also reduce the available straight-line grip required for rapid acceleration and hard stops.
Then i suppose if you are talking about track conditions and testing your camber settings you would need to measure tyre temperatures to determine the amount of camber required.
GOODNIGHT :wink:
Swervin_Mervin
13-12-2005, 19:22
Maybe that's why valvers tramline worse than willys. Valvers seem to have far more -ve camber on them.
dunno mate.
all i believe is that the designers of the car are very well aware of camber and its effects and thus design the suspension and chassis in such away to optimise it.For the williams i'm sure they had a track in mind and thus their word for me is gospel.
Tricky,personally I havent tried the camber bolts so dont know the benefit but a statement such as "a hell of a lot more grip for track use"needs to be backed up by fact.[/quote]
Not wishing to sound like a dick but if you Speak to Prima racing or any of the other outfits that prepared the R5 turbo and clio cup cars, they will tell you that they used to do this trick. All be it on uprated de-carbon suspension like
You dont.
but i think youve answered what I wanted to know.
They adjust camber because they know the workings of the suspension components they are fitting(uprated de-carbon)and because they are setting camber relative to the road and not the chassis.
That does not necessarily mean that camber adjustment suits a standard setup Williams.
from what i was told the de-carbon shockers off the clio cups(mk1) racers had more camber anyway without the need to camber bolts due to alignment of the holes at the bottom of each strut, wether this is 100% true i dont know!
He probably had more neg camber on the left front because of roundabouts...i.e for road use, there is going to be more harsh RH cornering.
tramlining is more associated with toe...
dunno mate.
all i believe is that the designers of the car are very well aware of camber and its effects and thus design the suspension and chassis in such away to optimise it.For the williams i'm sure they had a track in mind and thus their word for me is gospel.
The actual monocoque is the same as a 1.4 RT....if they were that aware they would have stiffened it to reduce movement in suspension pick-up points, and thus reduce variation in suspension geometry e.g. camber
You dont.
but i think youve answered what I wanted to know.
They adjust camber because they know the workings of the suspension components they are fitting(uprated de-carbon)and because they are setting camber relative to the road and not the chassis.
That does not necessarily mean that camber adjustment suits a standard setup Williams.
Yeah, that's probably true mate. Suppose on a track you're either gambling on setting up to win on long straights or on the corners or a compromise so probably relative to each track and not for everyday driving.
The actual monocoque is the same as a 1.4 RT....if they were that aware they would have stiffened it to reduce movement in suspension pick-up points, and thus reduce variation in suspension geometry e.g. camber
There has to be movement in suspension points in order for the wheels on the car to automatically apply camber when cornering hard.Otherwise you get too much understeer.
They would apply different rules to the different models based on suspension components.
from what i was told the de-carbon shockers off the clio cups(mk1) racers had more camber anyway without the need to camber bolts due to alignment of the holes at the bottom of each strut, wether this is 100% true i dont know!
yep upto 4deg negative, and its bloody awesome!
There has to be movement in suspension points in order for the wheels on the car to automatically apply camber when cornering hard.Otherwise you get too much understeer.
They would apply different rules to the different models based on suspension components.
wot?
the wheels dont automatically apply camber...
u seen a camber versus RH curve? as the car enters the corner the RH on the outside wheel reduces. look at the curve and you'll se as RH reduces camber tends towards +ve....and so increasing contact patch. this however is "steady state cornering". in real life the chassis moves as do the pick up points...leading to, as i said, variaition in suspension geometry....this is not wanted
Just to understand better..
what your saying is that chassis moves and pick up points are design flaws in car suspension designs and that a road going car's suspension under moderate cornering will not compensate by way of suspension movement positive camber?
from what i was told the de-carbon shockers off the clio cups(mk1) racers had more camber anyway without the need to camber bolts due to alignment of the holes at the bottom of each strut, wether this is 100% true i dont know!
yep upto 4deg negative, and its bloody awesome!
fred reckon u could get the part numbers for the cup racer suspension, i could then track some down through work, the parts system dont have cup racer part numbers from what ive found (or not found lol)
Just to understand better..
what your saying is that chassis moves and pick up points are design flaws in car suspension designs and that a road going car's suspension under moderate cornering will not compensate by way of suspension movement positive camber?
what im saying is that any chassis movement the leads to a movement in suspension pickup points (or even the surrounding area) will cause variation in suspension geometry. the greater the variaiton, the harder it is to get a consistent set-up. this is not ideal. why do you think race cars are made as stiff as possible?
fred reckon u could get the part numbers for the cup racer suspension, i could then track some down through work, the parts system dont have cup racer part numbers from what ive found (or not found lol)
I'm waiting for the part codes from him as well.
Just to understand better..
what your saying is that chassis moves and pick up points are design flaws in car suspension designs and that a road going car's suspension under moderate cornering will not compensate by way of suspension movement positive camber?
what im saying is that any chassis movement the leads to a movement in suspension pickup points (or even the surrounding area) will cause variation in suspension geometry. the greater the variaiton, the harder it is to get a consistent set-up. this is not ideal. why do you think race cars are made as stiff as possible?
I am not trying to understand the geometry of a race car as its obvious they try to stiffen it as much as possible.
What I was discussing earlier was the presumption that negative camber would allow a car to fly like hell around a track on standard setup(without suspension modifications)
And I ask you this (because you say that a car does not automatically apply negative camber on a wheel when cornering or positive camber when accelerating)why is it when a car is lowered the camber is thrown out of allignment?
do you not think that under breaking or hard cornering the suspension will straighten the wheel a certain amount negatively?
What I was discussing earlier was the presumption that negative camber would allow a car to fly like hell around a track on standard setup(without suspension modifications)
And I ask you this (because you say that a car does not automatically apply negative camber on a wheel when cornering or positive camber when accelerating)why is it when a car is lowered the camber is thrown out of allignment?
do you not think that under breaking or hard cornering the suspension will straighten the wheel a certain amount negatively?
right...as i have mentioned...there is a relationship between ride height and camber i.e. the camber versus RH curve. the eg's u have listed all change RH therefore this influences camber.
as for the last bit, obviously there will be a tendency for the upright to move outwrads during cornering and effect camber. BUT this is why im saying u need a stiff set-up....so u dont get un-controllable geometry influence.
basicly stan is sayiong buy a proper clio cup race car lol should be done :lol:
thats 8) Stan.
I tell ye everyone in this post should hook up for pints :wink:
we'd have some great discussions me thinks.
see ya later.
You guys certainly know your shit, I'm totally lost!! lol
*nods like I know what everyone is going on about*
Engine Technology (combustion theory/thermodynamics/internal physics) is my forte, but suspension/handling is ok...
im up for a pint, just name the pub!
Just to understand better..
what your saying is that chassis moves and pick up points are design flaws in car suspension designs and that a road going car's suspension under moderate cornering will not compensate by way of suspension movement positive camber?
what im saying is that any chassis movement the leads to a movement in suspension pickup points (or even the surrounding area) will cause variation in suspension geometry. the greater the variaiton, the harder it is to get a consistent set-up. this is not ideal. why do you think race cars are made as stiff as possible?
I know someone who has/had some sat in his garage :twisted:
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