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dannyt
07-03-2005, 12:05
What is the perfect susp set up for, everyday road driving, track days and 1/4's?

I know they are all totally different, but what do people think would be best,

the best ride height, bearing in mind im wanting to fit over speed bumps?

the best compression and spring rate?

also the best make that is adjustable?

and what did the likes of ragnottie use susp wise in his clio's, height, make and type?

Cheers

Danny

FlamingMonkey
07-03-2005, 12:13
I've just found out my front 2 springs have snapped :shock:

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 12:32
What is the perfect susp set up for, everyday road driving, track days and 1/4's?

I know they are all totally different, but what do people think would be best,

the best ride height, bearing in mind im wanting to fit over speed bumps?

the best compression and spring rate?

also the best make that is adjustable?

and what did the likes of ragnottie use susp wise in his clio's, height, make and type?

Cheers

Danny

You need a dedicated test team to effectively evaluate all he above. Set up in Rallying is dependent on conditions, surface, time of year, driver style etc etc etc.

I use the standard Renault set up because i know a dedicated test team spent along time making sure it was right (ie Renault Sport).

dannyt
07-03-2005, 13:22
yer thats what im wondering, however they didn't make it purely for speed, stifness and handling, they had to incorperate comfort as it was a road car!

So perhaps you could tell me, what does it handle like in comparisant to a williams on coilovers, i.e does it lean a lot, does it feel comforatable on the edge or do you think it could handle a lot better?

Also what do you think to the ride height?

Im just trying to weigh up whether to go for like you said the standard williams set up, that way, you get comfort and handling, but after going from quite a stiff low set up will i be happy or impresses or will it lean too much?

Cheers

Danny

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 13:24
Ive never been in a Williams with coilovers.

Martin
07-03-2005, 14:10
You have'nt lived! :lol:

Swervin_Mervin
07-03-2005, 14:12
If you want something to tackle all the different scenarios Danny, it has to be coilovers. This is what Ragnotti and most m-sport teams use anyway as they can fully adjust everything from rates to height.

There will be some element of compromise in the standard willy setup as it ultimately had to be driven everyday to suit a range of drivers. It might be setup to lean more to the drivers that would put them through their paces, but there would still be some margin of compromise for those that wouldn't intend to "drive"

yade
07-03-2005, 17:35
Coilovers are a waste of time and money without proper setup, corner weighting makes so much difference. Another tip is just because you have adjustable height dont slam the car to the ground, perfect height is when the wishbones are lying parralel to the car not at any angle which will put unwanted stress on the bushes. Also a negative frame angle of 1 degree will help. Checkout www.northamptonmotorsport.com

Swervin_Mervin
07-03-2005, 17:58
By the same token, any suspension setup, including standard, will not be as good as when it's corner weighted.

What would you suggest instead?

dannyt
07-03-2005, 18:18
I don't understand, corner weighted, parallel wishbones?

Can anyone put this into lamens terms?

Danny

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 18:39
Coilovers are a waste of time and money without proper setup, corner weighting makes so much difference. Another tip is just because you have adjustable height dont slam the car to the ground, perfect height is when the wishbones are lying parralel to the car not at any angle which will put unwanted stress on the bushes. Also a negative frame angle of 1 degree will help. Checkout www.northamptonmotorsport.com

Wooohooo someone agrees with me at last :D

Swervin_Mervin
07-03-2005, 18:46
Corner weighting Danny is basically setting the car up so that each corner weighs the same IIRC.

Certainly each side should read the same weight.

Chances of having this on a standard car are fook all, so what that arguement is meant to say about coilovers I don't know.

2 live
07-03-2005, 18:50
well...the corner weighting etc is ok..if its for use on track all the time..but why would u want to corner weight it evry time someone gets in the pass seat, rear seats, u put a bag of shopping in the boot etc......


corner weighting is a bit pointless for an evryday driver IMO as the weights on each corner wil be changin all the time.



best compromise for road use/track use etc is coilovers..........full stop

Swervin_Mervin
07-03-2005, 18:52
n fact, being able to adjust the height, as you can with coilovers, will allow one to corner weight the vehicle and setup the parallel wishbone arrangement.

So that's the coilovers are crap argument shot down. You do however, have to get the properly setup to get everything out of them. Northampton motorsport (provided in the link in Yade's post) are reknowned for being very good with regard to susp. setup, and also wheel balancing.

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 19:33
The way i see it is:

If you set up coilovers for road use (compromise safety, speed and comfort), then basically you just have the same set up as standard.

If you set up coilovers for optimum performance (track use), then your car will be unusable and un sfae for road use.

So coilover have no advantage on the road.

Winston
07-03-2005, 20:06
Saftey????

There adjustable....ie can be set for road, changed for track days

Just my 2p's worth lol

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 21:07
So can springs and shocks

Winston
07-03-2005, 21:20
But not many companys....If any make springs and shocks for a williams

KingStromba
07-03-2005, 21:51
The footage i see on track days on cliosport, i dont see many people driving fast enough to justify coilovers, or even decent tyres. Seems pretty pedestrian to me.

Think alot of people on there talk the talk but are just like 95% of the popluation, fooking useless. I get the impression most are the kind of kids who would get picked last at football practice or have a note from their dad saying 'please excuse my son from rugby as he is ****ing useless'.

As Martin Brundle said about Takumo Sato 'He turned into the corner and suddenly ran out of talent'. Damon Hill went through a set of Clio Williams brakes in 1.5 laps of the Nurbergring according to Jonathon Williams (15 or so miles?). If your brakes are lasting longer than that id say standard suspension would be fine and coilovers is not worth it as your no where near the limit of the car.

People seem to think that a Cliosport sticker, bucket seats and coilovers will suddenly add some talent to their feable useless bodies. The only thing that can do that is your parents. :D

NickFr
07-03-2005, 22:23
I don't understand a bloody word of this but KS you made me laugh :lol:

I am just blissfully ignorant :oops:

dannyt
08-03-2005, 09:05
Are you talking about your childhood KS as thats certainly not mine??? :wink:

I think the benifit of being able to change the ride hieght, compression rate and so on is good with coilovers and the fact that they are shiny!!!lol
But im wondering weather once i've found a good set up with playing around with them,

A, would that set up be the same as a standard williams?

B, Would I ever want to change them after they have been set up correctly?

C, Also whats the price difference between coilovers and standard willy susp?

Danny

Purple
08-03-2005, 09:46
Does any company make progressive springs for the Clio Williams? Softer rate than standard on soft turns and slightly harder than standard on hard turns would be nice. Leaving the height unchanged. It would probably be fair bit cheaper than coilovers, provided someone makes them.

KingStromba
08-03-2005, 10:26
Are you talking about your childhood KS as thats certainly not mine??? :wink:

I think the benifit of being able to change the ride hieght, compression rate and so on is good with coilovers and the fact that they are shiny!!!lol
But im wondering weather once i've found a good set up with playing around with them,

A, would that set up be the same as a standard williams?

B, Would I ever want to change them after they have been set up correctly?

C, Also whats the price difference between coilovers and standard willy susp?

Danny

I was always the guy picking the teams :D

NickFr
08-03-2005, 11:18
All good fun though this tinkering with our pride and joys .. can we improve it ,will it go faster, will it out handle. I guess the sad fact is to get the level of performance that some desire is probably not a question of how much money is spent and on what, but buying the next car up on the list.

C'mon KS you'll know the answer to this, if the williams was voted the sixth best handling car, what was the 5th and 4th and how much did they cost :wink:

Joking aside all you folks that push out the limits are brave and rich and helpful to the rest of us :D

Jan
08-03-2005, 11:26
The footage i see on track days on cliosport, i dont see many people driving fast enough to justify coilovers, or even decent tyres. Seems pretty pedestrian to me.

Think alot of people on there talk the talk but are just like 95% of the popluation, fooking useless. I get the impression most are the kind of kids who would get picked last at football practice or have a note from their dad saying 'please excuse my son from rugby as he is ****ing useless'.

As Martin Brundle said about Takumo Sato 'He turned into the corner and suddenly ran out of talent'. Damon Hill went through a set of Clio Williams brakes in 1.5 laps of the Nurbergring according to Jonathon Williams (15 or so miles?). If your brakes are lasting longer than that id say standard suspension would be fine and coilovers is not worth it as your no where near the limit of the car.

People seem to think that a Cliosport sticker, bucket seats and coilovers will suddenly add some talent to their feable useless bodies. The only thing that can do that is your parents. :D

:lol: excellent post mate! - can't wait to try my hand at the 'ring this summer.... and no, i don't have bucket seats or coilovers :wink:

in fact, i'm picking up my williams at the end of the month.... :oops: oh well...

2 live
08-03-2005, 11:54
The footage i see on track days on cliosport, i dont see many people driving fast enough to justify coilovers, or even decent tyres. Seems pretty pedestrian to me.

Think alot of people on there talk the talk but are just like 95% of the popluation, fooking useless. I get the impression most are the kind of kids who would get picked last at football practice or have a note from their dad saying 'please excuse my son from rugby as he is ****ing useless'.

As Martin Brundle said about Takumo Sato 'He turned into the corner and suddenly ran out of talent'. Damon Hill went through a set of Clio Williams brakes in 1.5 laps of the Nurbergring according to Jonathon Williams (15 or so miles?). If your brakes are lasting longer than that id say standard suspension would be fine and coilovers is not worth it as your no where near the limit of the car.

People seem to think that a Cliosport sticker, bucket seats and coilovers will suddenly add some talent to their feable useless bodies. The only thing that can do that is your parents. :D


lol.....brakes........the gearbox slows me down more wen on track.......but then thats prob y i jus broke mine ...twice lol......

i saw damon hill once in guildford..parkin his rari up outside maccy dees...... i was unfortunately in the van......i pulled alongside him n wound my window down...he smiled..probably thinking.this lads gunna be starstruck n ask for me autograph or summat....i dont think he was expectin this..... 'oi......ow u get a f1 drive??......iv won more races in a williams than u.....' lol...he dint look impressed.....but the fact is true :wink: :wink:

KingStromba
08-03-2005, 12:11
So this is the Damon Hill who had 30 odd F1 wins, 30 odd pole positions, outraced Alan Prost, Nigel Mansell and Jaques Villeneuve, who had a better wins to start ratio than Micheal Schumacher during 1994, 1995, and 1996, and won the world formula one championship, probably the finest prize in motor racing history?

Yeah im sure Sir Frank Williams is kicking himself for signig him :?

2 live
08-03-2005, 12:14
so how many races has he won in a williams.......iv lost count over the three years iv had mine....an i have more than 1 race per month....so technically the statement is correct....lol

Purple
08-03-2005, 12:49
Joking aside all you folks that push out the limits are brave and rich and helpful to the rest of us :D

Brave, rich and single! The spouse usually has limits to how much money you can pour into a car that was perfectly fine in the first place :)

2 live
08-03-2005, 12:52
lol....know the feeling mate......the engine rebuild was sposed to be a new kitchen....oooooooops lol

but.....at least i managed to talk her into thinkin the engine was fukt completely rather than just the clutch goin hehe

Purple
08-03-2005, 12:57
Ah yes, the classic "If I don't spend 500 pounds to fix that now, it will eventually cost 1000 pounds when it explodes and harm the chiildren" line.

2 live
08-03-2005, 13:14
was more like..' if i get another engine and rebuild that...it will be quicker than to do mine.take out, fix put back in......hehe............oh by the way.i know someone with some cheap bits so ive ordered em...;)'

lol


altho i must admit....she gives me a pretty free reign in that respect whether she likes it or not lol


couldnt quite get the sense of having a 6 speed sequential box thru to her yet tho.....im still workin on that 1 lol..another broken box or 2 shud do it i reckon lol

Zollo
08-03-2005, 19:04
Danny, like you say, you'd probably end up running the same settings as the standard Williams set-up anyway, simply because it's the best for a combination of road and track use.

And that perfect setup would be after you've invested in some suspension specialist to set everything up. Suspension is a fussy aspect of car tuning; that's why race teams spend days, weeks, even whole winter seasons testing. Renault spent years developing the Williams.

Coilovers (and normal aftermarket shock and spring setups) can improve handling for the track, but you've got to be honest to yourself about how much you'll use it on the track. Once you get past a certain point of car dynamics, the more you modify the car for track work, in general, the worse it will get on the road.

Bumps, cambers, white lines, cracks, tarmac changes means that the suspension has to be supple enough to negotiate these obstacles without upsetting the cars balance and composure. A BTCC car would be undrivable on your average British B road for instance.

I hope that helps you, even if you (or anybody else) disagrees. :D

Matt

KingStromba
08-03-2005, 19:08
Totally agree. Good post.

Zollo
08-03-2005, 19:28
Thanks :)

By the way, that last comment reads badly! It wasn't meant to be a two-fingers to anybody who disagrees!

dannyt
09-03-2005, 09:03
Yer I agree with that comment pal, I suppose it was voted the best handling hot hatch so I’m guessing the Renault sports team got something about it right!!!

I think when I opt for willy track then, I will be going for willy shocks/ springs and rear dampers too!!!!

This should be fun not hitting any tops or speed bumps anymore with the exhaust and a more comfortable ride!

Also just to ask, how badly does the williams lean on corners, im just wanting to check, it doesn’t feel like your gonna fall out of it I hope?

Some good advice in there!

Cheers

Danny

2 live
09-03-2005, 10:20
well mate.u bin in mine round oulton.and that was set for the road.so could have been made to sit a lot lower at the front and could also have been stiffened up a hell of a lot, as the rears are on summat like 1/4 way from softest setting and fronts about 1/2............... and i think u also had a few laps in some others willys, with std set up.......make ur choice........personally id go coilovers

dannyt
09-03-2005, 10:49
Good point jon, but it's hard to make a good comparison because everyone drives their cars different pal, if everyone was chucking there motors round like you were then i might have been able to tell a lot better!

But they all seemed to handle well, some stiffer than others!!!! :wink:

I like the fact of being able to increase de-crease the stifness of the coilovers, however jon do you change the settings much?

Also i could get a set of coilovers, set them to the normal williams ride hieght or maybe slightly lower and then mess with the stifness later and maybe set them harder for track use etc! Is it hard to change them?

Also how much are the AVO's vs the Standard set up?

Cheers

Danny

P.s Im thinking the perfect set up might be the coilovers set to the same spec as standard willy except harder, so less roll!!!! Maybe! Or it might just be the way 2live drives!!!lol

2 live
09-03-2005, 11:03
tbh mate....i dont adjust em all that regularly.....i stiffen the rears up n soften the fronts for york like........but since the testing and gettin em how i want for road use, cant say i change em at all from those settings.......


but......like u say....if i ever hav the need for adjustin em, track days , york etc , ....then i can......im not confined to the 1 setting....