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View Full Version : Time to hold my hands up and admit i was wrong



Slithers
13-10-2005, 16:02
As many of you know, i have always been an advocate for the fact that the 205 gti as standard is better than the clio 16v as standard.

After an incident today with an MGZR i think it might be time to say that the clio 16v is the better car overall.

So, jesus, 2 live and all the other ppl who said i was wrong take this oppurtunity to laugh long and loud at me.

j3ned
13-10-2005, 16:05
Thing is a 205 1.6 GTi is a better car - a 1.9 even better.....not much can touch a 1.9 for speed. I am a strong supporter of all Renault but the 205 is a cracking motor and goes down as an all time classic next to the mk1 Golf GTi

Zollo
13-10-2005, 16:06
The Clio is certainly faster.

j3ned
13-10-2005, 16:08
not faster than a 1.6

Gav
13-10-2005, 16:09
the clio 16v is ultimate!
For a little car, they look, sound, go like the best little hatchback ever known to man! :D

Zollo
13-10-2005, 16:13
not faster than a 1.6

I reckon a valver would be quicker (in a straight line) than a 1.6 and a 1.9 GTi.

It depends what Slithers means by 'better' though, cos the 205 is definately the better drivers car.

j3ned
13-10-2005, 16:13
suckers !!! :D clio's kick ass

Slithers
13-10-2005, 16:28
Dont get me wrong i still prefer the 205 gti for looks and character, but the clio 16v is soooo much more forgiving.

j3ned
13-10-2005, 16:29
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

northy
13-10-2005, 16:35
amen

Zollo
13-10-2005, 16:41
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

Yeah, apart from when they're on dirt (and snow, and tarmac). Funny thing, I don't remember the Renault 5 winning a world rally championship, when the T16 did. And I don't remember the Clio winning a championship, whereas the 206 has won numerous championships.

I thank you. :wink:

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 16:41
not faster than a 1.6

Pmsl, Yes it is. I owned a 1.6gti in my valver. A 1.9 however would be a more even contest

Zollo
13-10-2005, 16:42
Dont get me wrong i still prefer the 205 gti for looks and character, but the clio 16v is soooo much more forgiving.

A Mk4 Golf GTi is pretty forgiving too. Just keeps you on your toes, you wimps :wink:

Swervin_Mervin
13-10-2005, 16:42
The clio pasted all in the lower class.

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 16:42
not faster than a 1.6

Pmsl, Yes it is. I owned a 1.6gti in my valver. A 1.9 however would be a more even contest

:lol: Just realised you were joking

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 16:48
For its class id say the 1.816v has the fastest acceleration. In a 92 autocar magazine the described the 16v as an agressive sprinter.

Quote..."The renault has a blistering 30-70 time of 7.1secs. So good that it snaps at the heals of more powerful and expensive two-litre fast hatches such as the vauxhaul astra gsi and escort rs2000"

Zollo
13-10-2005, 16:51
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

And that's wrong, the very early 1.6s had 105bhp, but the later ones had 115bhp. So there :P

Slithers
13-10-2005, 16:56
TBH i think an experienced rally/track driver would find the 205 gti the more superior car, but for normal drivers like myself i think that the clio 16v is a better car.

And seen as cars are designed to be sold to the general public you have to realise that the clio 16v must be the better car overall.

Slithers
13-10-2005, 16:57
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

And that's wrong, the very early 1.6s had 105bhp, but the later ones had 115bhp. So there :P

Zollos bob on the money there

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 17:04
I dont see how people think the gti is better. If you stick they willy track on a valver then surely the valver is a better car? It stil has more power and speed and the handling would be the same as a willy. I know were talking standard vs standard but i reckon thats all it will take to make a valver handle better. No one will argue about the willy track/handling :wink:

Zollo
13-10-2005, 17:05
TBH i think an experienced rally/track driver would find the 205 gti the more superior car, but for normal drivers like myself i think that the clio 16v is a better car.

And seen as cars are designed to be sold to the general public you have to realise that the clio 16v must be the better car overall.

This is true, and I have to agree that the Valver is the better car overall. It's newer, quieter, better built and equipped and the handling is alot calmer and more composed. But in that respect, the 306 GTi6 is a better overall car than the Williams. However, in pure driving terms, the Williams edges the 306.

Personally, I love all decent hot hatches, no matter what make they are 8)

j3ned
13-10-2005, 17:16
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

And that's wrong, the very early 1.6s had 105bhp, but the later ones had 115bhp. So there :P


But at some stage it did have 105 - so i am right.........anyway thats still 20 bhp down on the Renault - peugeot suck cock

Zollo
13-10-2005, 17:16
:wink:

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 17:20
Clio 16v suposed to be 137bhp not 135 :wink:

j3ned
13-10-2005, 17:23
Hey there both good cars with each differing in certain points at the end of the day - cant dog any of em really - i like both models :D

Lunner
13-10-2005, 17:40
For its class id say the 1.816v has the fastest acceleration. In a 92 autocar magazine the described the 16v as an agressive sprinter.

Quote..."The renault has a blistering 30-70 time of 7.1secs. So good that it snaps at the heals of more powerful and expensive two-litre fast hatches such as the vauxhaul astra gsi and escort rs2000"

Yeah wonder why they say 30-70, cus off the line they are crap, as they have NO low down ower

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 17:50
Lol, They also quote a 0-60 time of 7.4! and say that a 16v with a little more mielage on it gets faster. ( The previous one they tested from new did 7.7)

Who needs low down grunt for a 0-60? I pull off at 4k slippin the clutch :?

J o n
13-10-2005, 17:56
205 1.6 - 105bhp // clio 16v 135 bhp

205 1.9 - 130bhp // clio W 150 bhp

Peugeot always trail in Renaults dirt

Yeah, apart from when they're on dirt (and snow, and tarmac). Funny thing, I don't remember the Renault 5 winning a world rally championship, when the T16 did. And I don't remember the Clio winning a championship, whereas the 206 has won numerous championships.

I thank you. :wink:

aah, but you have to remember that Peugeot built some 4WD turbo road cars, whereas Reno only made FWD N/A cars... which still hold records on some tarmac stages i'm told... so not bad considering the odds. had Reno purpose built a road going 4WD turbo Williams you can bet your left ball they would have been faster and more composed.

Lunner, a valvers only slow if your a lame ass that cant change down a gear or two, from a stand you can launch them fast and hard and they WILL keep with a std Williams to 60 just about. in gear you may think not so impressive, but they rev high so are designed to be driven in high revs, which is why you can pretty much always get away with dropping two gears when you need to get going. basically drive them hard and its easy to keep them in the power. my mate Wayne has a very quick valver that from rolling starts on cam in 2nd would stick to my car (pre new engine, gearbox, cams... yada yada yada...).

Matt told you since day one the valver is a better car. I drove the 1.6 and tbh after getting out of the Williams it just felt dreadfully slow and crashy with the ultra stiff suspension setup. they look cool as **** and sound mint, but even the Mi16's on TB's couldn't get near my car with 2 live at the wheel... okay, so 2 live has the reactions of a rabbit and was driving from age 3, but those dudes looked like experienced track goers... think Yoz was fending them off in the valver :shock:

Matt A you gay bastard, was that you that drew the GIANT cock on my drivers window too??? pmsl :evil: :lol:

Andyvalver
13-10-2005, 18:00
Here's a little review pic from 92 against a fiesta rs1800. It says they did a 15.9 1/4 in there 16v :shock:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b146/Andyvalver/lastscan.jpg

Zollo
13-10-2005, 18:06
aah, but you have to remember that Peugeot built some 4WD turbo road cars, whereas Reno only made FWD N/A cars... which still hold records on some tarmac stages i'm told... so not bad considering the odds.

:

This is very true. But they didn't, so Peugeot still make the ultimate rally cars :P :wink:

J o n
13-10-2005, 18:51
oh yeah, Pug's are better rally cars, but on the road they are 2nd best each time. bottom line is Reno have a better development team, they could beat Pug at anything they decide to take on I reckon... past and present.

Pug have the 205GTi, 309GTi, 405Mi16, 106GTi, 306GTi, 206GTi's...

Reno have the R5 Turbo, R19 16V, 21 Turbo, RSi, Valver, Willy, 172(&Cup), 182, Megane 225...

every era Pug 2nd place... some are great cars though

Chris n`nic
13-10-2005, 19:26
Current F1 Champion anyone? :wink:

Chris

Chris n`nic
13-10-2005, 19:58
Although...... :wink:

Chris

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/chriscup1/1114609326LR9F0285--1copy.jpg

Slithers
13-10-2005, 23:11
Current F1 Champion anyone? :wink:

Chris

Lets be honest everyone knows kimi is the better driver in ther better car, kimi had all the bad luck this season.

+ Peugeot have more wrc titles and nearly as many F1 titles with mclaren iirc

Zollo
14-10-2005, 09:20
oh yeah, Pug's are better rally cars, but on the road they are 2nd best each time. bottom line is Reno have a better development team, they could beat Pug at anything they decide to take on I reckon... past and present.

Pug have the 205GTi, 309GTi, 405Mi16, 106GTi, 306GTi, 206GTi's...

Reno have the R5 Turbo, R19 16V, 21 Turbo, RSi, Valver, Willy, 172(&Cup), 182, Megane 225...

every era Pug 2nd place... some are great cars though

No way! Renault have not always made better cars than Peugeot. :shock: I know this is a Clio forum, but surely some of you must have driven these Peugeots and read car magazines at some point :? . There shouldn't be this much blind biased...surely?!

The 205 is famous for being THE BEST hot hatch ever, along with the Williams. All of a sudden, it's not even as good as a Valver or R5 GTT? And Peugeot is famous for its amazing ride/handling compromise, chassis balance, etc., but no, they're not the fastest cars in their class.

A 205 GTi worse than a Valver and R5 GTT? Ok, close call with the 5, but the Valver? :shock:
A 405 Mi not being as good a car as 21 Turbo? Torque-steer anyone??
A 309 GTi not as good as a 19? Have you driven a 309??
A 106 GTi not as good as a Clio RSi? Pull the other one?!
A GTi6 coming second to a 172? Not a hope in hell. Second to a Williams though, yeah.
A 206 better than a 182? Hell yeah, the 206 is dog turd.
A 307 better than a Megane? Ok, well stop here. :wink:

If you start modifying, Renaults seem to react very well, and you can generally make a modded Renault faster than modded Peugeot. If you're a straight-line speed merchant then yeah, Renaults may well come ahead of Peugeot. But that's not what these cars are all about. Slap a C20LET in a Corsa or Astra if that's your thing.

But standard Vs standard is a differend matter. I'm not saying Peugeot are better builders of cars than Renault. Personally, I wouldn't split them. In fact no, going on current trends, Renault are better. Peugeot have completely lost the way, whilst Renault still carry on making cars like the 182 Trophy and Megane Cup.

As I've said before, I love 'em both. But there's no way Renault have always made better cars :o :D

NickFr
14-10-2005, 11:47
A 405 Mi16 not being as good a car as 21 Turbo? Torque-steer anyone??

What about the 405 T16 even comparing it to the Renault 21 Quadra turbo ie 4 wheel drive.....no contest!

For what it is worth I have never driven a Valver only a Williams but I have driven a Pug 205Gti 1.6 and owned 2 Pug 205Gti 1.9 one of which was chipped but had no other Mods. Comparing the handling of the 1.9 to my Williams..I would say fairly even although the the best overall would be the Willy, felt more stable and solid. The Pug could be very unforgiving compared to the Willy, which suffers fools a lot better than the Pug. Top speed...no contest Williams everytime Pug good for 130 ish, I believe the book speed is 127MPH. However the 309GTi was slightly quicker I believe!
and a better Car than the R19 IMHO.

Despite the fact that the Williams IMO beats the Pug in all area's it truly was and is a Classic hot hatch...it was always going to take something special to surpass it and Renault obliged with the Williams...... 8)

NickFr
14-10-2005, 11:49
Shit double posted!

Andyvalver
14-10-2005, 14:05
Dunno whats better really. Valver is faster in a straight line, thats a fact. Ive stuck with a 205gti 1.6 in the bends but does this mean i must of been a better driver? Imo alot has to do with the driver, maybe the the 205 can hold the corner better, who knows :?

kj16v
14-10-2005, 17:15
Yeah wonder why they say 30-70, cus off the line
valvers are crap, as they have NO low down power

Oh so it wasn't just mine then. So they're all actually wussy before 4.5k. Even my Nova on T40's had more impressive low-mid range. :roll:

I had to make a little mod to give mine suitably aggressive mid-range... 8)

I have to say I agree with what Zollo said. And beating a 205 1.6 GTI in a valver isn't really that impressive - they're 200cc and 8 valves down y'know.

Which car's a better all round package is down to personal taste really. I bought a valver because it's quick, handles perfectly as far as I'm concerned, looks great, and was the right price
Plus it's the latest built hot hatch which is any cop that you can buy for <£1500 - and I'm sure no-one can argue with that (though I'm sure they'll try)!

griffidh
24-10-2005, 18:07
well heres my thoughts on the subject as standard the valver is defo faster than the 1.6 gti by quite a way but the 205 was alot better round the bends well it was until my mate crashed it after he bought it off me :evil: lol slithers knows what im sayin tho dont ya lad

J o n
24-10-2005, 18:20
hmmm... I drove that 205 and wasn't impressed at all... handling on 90% of roads and the 205 would be in a hedge... but then it was low and 'ard suspension setup... the main thing for me was the power... or lack of... it was shockingly slow, I could swear it used to be faster lol.

he's a story about a 205...

drive... throw it into a corner... grip grip grip grip grip, oops, dead...

doesn't happen like that in the valver/willy, at least you know when it will bite you, 205's want to kill the driver. simple

Zollo
24-10-2005, 18:26
Jesus, you're a big girl! :wink:

Cars are just like investing money... Bigger risks = Bigger rewards.

Tommo
24-10-2005, 18:29
I owned a pug 309 GTI for 18 Months and it is simply one of the finest cars I have ever driven, second only to my Williams (very close, I'll explain why in a minute) and I have driven many cars (205 1.9 GTI, R5 GTT, 306 S16 to name a few)

The 309, although it wasn't the fastest car in the world in a straight line, it handled like nothing else I have driven (before I got the Williams). Totally composed and smooth never matter how fast I seemed to go into a bend. I think my Williams is only better honestly because it has an after market LSD, I think as standard the 309 would handle better. I have also read in many magazines that the 309 GTI handled better than the 205 due to the slightly longer wheel base.

The only downside to this car was the reliability factor, it cost me a fortune in the end, but what a car!! Extremely under rated imo and to say an R19 16v is better without ever driving one is ridiculous!!

Zollo
24-10-2005, 18:40
Would love to have a go in a 309 GTi. Gotta be the best very cheap track car out there.

griffidh
25-10-2005, 10:25
used to work with a guy that had a 309 gti was in absoulutly stunning condition but he had all the same little faults as my 205 had pain in the arse to maintain had to sell it cos i couldnt be bothered with shellin out on it anymore valvers chew gearboxes but pugs seem to chew everything else

2 live
25-10-2005, 14:47
yeah id agree with the 309 handling better than the 205.

me ma had a 309 many moons ago..was the first car i drove on the roads.albeit slightly illegally lol...being only 16......hehe



still...came back in 1 piece.....apart from the huge hole in the zorst