View Full Version : FOR ANYONE RUNNING AWT CAMS
opinions please. are u really pleased with them? have u noticed a big difference in performance with them fitted? would u highly recommend me getting a set? are u running standard timing or awt pulleys/timing? hows your idle? cheers.
Also what degree cams are you running?
jesus and mark ritchspeed are the only people I know of running them...
opinions please. are u really pleased with them? have u noticed a big difference in performance with them fitted? would u highly recommend me getting a set? are u running standard timing or awt pulleys/timing? hows your idle? cheers.
ive got AWT cams & vernier pullys ,
in reply to ure Q's:
performance gains - i noticed a very slight gain after they were fitted. This is running a standard map & conservative timing.
I then took the car back to Ben and he tweaked the timing for me F.O.C more agressivly, and the gain was much more apparent. The car pulls very hard after 4.5k and is still going up to 6.5k. This agressive timing was to the expense of smooth idle when cold on a standard map. After the car warms up the idle is ok.
Ben told me they are around '262' but are slightly different to other cams on the market due to value overlap ? maybe Ben can elaborate on this if he sees this post, i cant remember the exact technical details.....
I would also budget for a custom map and rev limit increase if you want the most out of it, as the car is still pulling at 6.5k rpm and could do with an increase to 7200, anymore would be pushing reliability i think.
The question of is it worth it ?
if you want to keep your williams for a while then i would say yes, for just over a grand cams+verniers+map is about the best for the money.The next step is spending £4,000+ on TB's or Low pressure turbo kit.
im currently debating weather or not to sell the car and move onto something turbo/supercharged or to get the car mapped and SS manifold on.
The problem is for £1000 you can up a turbo car from 300-400bhp (supra TT for example) or just put the money and williams towards something already powerful.
it all depends on how long you want to keep the car for, what type of daily driving you do, and how much cash you've got to spend on your toys........
still unsure as to whether to go for cams or not seems to be inconsistant results on them...some go like stink other are only a ball hair quicker...hmm
All depends on the timing i think, if they are timed and mapped well then you will get decent gains, also a 260* cam is quite conservative, will get more gains from a 280* cam, again at the loss of smooth idling, might even need the idle raised
iv got 280 in mine. its going back for AWT verniers at some point tho!
So i presume its on std timing, whats the idle like?
ooops sorry, no its on verniers t the mo, i meant its going back for AWT pulleys instead at some point! idle is bob on 900rpm. idles better than the banana and my old 1.8 16v did!
im pretty sure piper cams are 270 degrees. tbh im not very convinced reading other peoples posts. sounds like a lot of cash for not a lot of bhp. im starting to get the itch for another rs turbo, seen an immaculate g plate for sale near me for £4500 with 63000mls on the clock and standard. spend a few quid on one of these and u get major increase in power and u cant beat the noise of a turbo spinning up. plus ive always loved the look of them. i get bored so quickly with cars! ive had 4 in the last couple of years.
yeh but how many RS turbo's run 14.0-14.1 1/4 mile with just cams, verniers, exhaust and chip, if that :) martins engine is almost standard and runs 14.1 1/4, not forgetting the clio's handle very well too
the 2.0 16v F7R's are the best engines to have in the clio! id imagine more reliable that the RST lump too? good potential!
i also get bored quick mate, iv had 5 cars in 8 months, but always end up back with a 2.0 clio, and iv had a scooby and allorts hehe
aye if you get a good un' the 2.0 clios are unreal... Can beat a lot of 'quicker' cars... The nana even with front wheels drive would beat bugeye Sti Impreza to 100mph and mine is silly considering it has has no internal mods.
The nana even with front wheels drive would beat bugeye Sti Impreza to 100mph.
that nana must have been a right mover then, a mates got a bugeye sti and belive me they dont half move 0-100, only prob on them is they die 80-90 then pick up again?? :?: :?:
the bug eyes arent really a problem. mitsis 5,6,7 arent either once moving...never underestimate the power of a clio hehe
when i had the nana, i stuck with an evo 4 from 60 to silly speeds no problem!
neither was pulling on either. i was buzzing afterm and it was one shocked evo driver lol!
iv pulled on 6s and 7s at higher speeds.....never really come across the 4s etc so cant comment lol
only prob is modded ones hehe
I love this attitude towards turbo tuning, like you can somehow spend **** all and it doubles the bhp... sorry, it does work like this. Take the price of getting your turbo tuned and your looking at the basic mods or filter, decat/downpipe/ zorst chip and boost upping. Now that will cost more than cams, your petrol will cost more than a cam'd Williams would... your servicing costs are higher and so's your insurance. After that though you may have a 300bhp turbo car... or there abouts. Now that will cost well in excess of a grand and if you want anymore power it's not cheap, turbo's and IC's are expensive where as cams will cost you **** all and give you more power everywhere.
You also need to realise that the cams themselves are not meant to do a great deal, Ben said they wont do much on their own until mapped... just ask 2 live on that, or Rob. Once you chip it expect a huge difference... yes HUGE for the benifit or Mr Barrington if he is reading this... not only a HUGE difference, but also proven over YEARS down the strip by the likes of 2 live.
Mark_Ritchspeed
20-09-2005, 22:00
I'm running the AWT cams and have been very impressed so far. They are still on standard timing and could certainly do with timing in properly, but I just cant be arsed at the moment. The engine certainly seems very strong, especially when pulling to higher rpm and still pulls well over 7k rpm.
As for tuning Evos. A simple exhaust change on an Evo should see anything from the 4's onwards up to around 300bhp. You simply wouldnt believe how bad the exhaust system on the Evos are. I reckon a standard Clio exhaust is much more efficient than the Evo ones.
Imprezas in most guises really arent that quick, when compared to very mildly tweaked Clios. Whereas, almost every Evo I have driven is massively faster. Only a seriously well modified Clio would stand a chance.
yup, Evo's are the serious 4x4 road car varient on the impreza... superior in every way and they dont make a group 17 insurance model that chavs can readily buy.
thats true lol!
my old one had exhaust, decat and downpipe and gained 20bhp.
but yes you can pick them up now for £3k in the same shape as the £10k plus sti's etc. seems lods of Uk spec ones knocking about driven by gimps!
I'm running the AWT cams and have been very impressed so far. They are still on standard timing and could certainly do with timing in properly, but I just cant be arsed at the moment. The engine certainly seems very strong, especially when pulling to higher rpm and still pulls well over 7k rpm.
As for tuning Evos. A simple exhaust change on an Evo should see anything from the 4's onwards up to around 300bhp. You simply wouldnt believe how bad the exhaust system on the Evos are. I reckon a standard Clio exhaust is much more efficient than the Evo ones.
Imprezas in most guises really arent that quick, when compared to very mildly tweaked Clios. Whereas, almost every Evo I have driven is massively faster. Only a seriously well modified Clio would stand a chance.
i made at least 1/2 a lap on an evo 6 at oulton over maybe 3 or 4 laps, was all over the back of him but didnt quite have the speed to pass him on the straights, he was getting the power down better comin out of the corners, i couldnt pass him..but he was definately hampering my lap times
this happened a couple times..once with craggy in, once with danny t in
this was zorsted as well.but i was shocked at just how much shit it was throwin out the back.
Mark_Ritchspeed
21-09-2005, 23:11
Its safe to say that not many people can drive an Evo anywhere near its limits on track. Stick a very good driver in both cars and the Evo would be around 4-5secs a lap quicker than a Clio.
i wouldnt be so sure of that tbh dependant on the cars used.
I'm running the AWT cams and have been very impressed so far. They are still on standard timing and could certainly do with timing in properly, but I just cant be arsed at the moment. The engine certainly seems very strong, especially when pulling to higher rpm and still pulls well over 7k rpm.
As for tuning Evos. A simple exhaust change on an Evo should see anything from the 4's onwards up to around 300bhp. You simply wouldnt believe how bad the exhaust system on the Evos are. I reckon a standard Clio exhaust is much more efficient than the Evo ones.
Imprezas in most guises really arent that quick, when compared to very mildly tweaked Clios. Whereas, almost every Evo I have driven is massively faster. Only a seriously well modified Clio would stand a chance.
i made at least 1/2 a lap on an evo 6 at oulton over maybe 3 or 4 laps, was all over the back of him but didnt quite have the speed to pass him on the straights, he was getting the power down better comin out of the corners, i couldnt pass him..but he was definately hampering my lap times
this happened a couple times..once with craggy in, once with danny t in
this was zorsted as well.but i was shocked at just how much shit it was throwin out the back.
i remember them, was in craggys old vts and we was all over the scooby and evo on bends(yes not talking shit lol) but on straights they would pull away only for use to catch them on braking and try overtake on the bend lol, thats when we spun and almost hit barrier!!
was mainly the last corner b4 the start/finish that i lost out to with the scoob......he was taking a lot better line than me there, and getting a shitload of acc out of it...it was a bit slippy tho hehe
the evo was jus edgin a 1/2 car out of most corners, having to back off to stop meself hitting him goin into em, and he was gettin the power down b4 me, the straights just werent long enuff to get me past him lol cudda pulled up along side of him, but i doubt he wouldve pulled over to let me past
nice hijack of this thread guys. whats all this shit about evos and scoobys got to do with running awt cams? dont want to hear about your track day exploits thanks. stick to the topic ffs!
Keep yer hair on Jim...threads always go off topic if they last long enough..oh and..........
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/8884/misc58gj.jpg
lol...only comparin mate.there are more options than awt......some better than others it seems tho lol
got to laugh. i was told to expect 20bhp on awt cams on standard timing. im sorry but thats just bollocks. pipers on verniers claim 12-15bhp how the hell can u get 20bhp on standard timing from just cams. by the way the person who told me to expect this was the maker, ben r.
power gains vary from car to car, depends on condition on the engine, what exhaust system you run etc etc allthough it does sound optimistic i wouldnt go slating anyone!
they need a map really!
but the banana before cams and a map was 155bhp, after 179bhp
Ah, no problems people...
misunderstandings creep up all the time and i deal with misread or misunderstood info every now and then, and sometimes i'm just so busy that a quick reply email will be short, i dont have the time to explain the full understandings of this particular pair of camshafts......which will hopefully be relieved by my website.
Anyway, the cams have the POTENTIAL to touch upto 180bhp.......if you look at it in its raw form, thats a ludicrous 30bhp up from the std 150bhp.
Now, obviously your not going to get that by slapping them in a std engine on std pullies. Std pullies have std timing marks, but you'd be surprised just how much they vary from car to car, which is only expected when you take into account the reference points are cast into the pullies and the reference points on the engine are on a cam cover which has more than a few degrees of freedom. This leads to an almost pot luck situation when it comes to running on std pullies, some will run mildy better like Mark Ritchspeeds but nothing mind blowing, and some will storm out of the box like TheJesus's. Std timing marks are something which are out of my control.
The other factor will be your engine as it sits before you install them, a std engine wont see the gains as one which has had the basic breathing mods, which is only expected, and in some cases some poorly modified car will be seeing less than std power to start with.
Even those who run them on adj pullies can and will see slight variences, which is why i offer free retiming sessions as i've stated before (who else does that?), its not in my interest to turn out unhappy customers, so i do try my best to please everybody where i can. For examply, Twist off this forum is runing the cams and had them timed into the base timing i start all the cars off on. It made things better, but it wasnt until we retimed them into a much more aggressive state that it really picked up. This is tuning and not everything is equal, part of the work is understanding how each engine is working and responding to what it 'wants'.
So obviously, there is discrepency between cars running the cams, upto a staggering 10-15bhp, but that is something out of my control when everybody wants and has different combinations on their car.
My point is, get everything spot on, cams, remap, exhaust, intake and you are looking at a williams hovvering around the 180bhp mark.
Sorry for the long post, but its in everbodies interest to understand exactly how things can work. I'm not forcing anybody to buy anything, and i do not empoy heavy handed sales, but i do try my best to help people understand my products, which is only fair is it not?
also r/r results can basically be doctored to give any result the operator desires......to be taken with a pinch of salt tbh..
its timed runs, and on the road that counts.
must admit the cams made a big diff to jesus' ...he still gets panned like....but it made the panning a little bit closer lol :wink:
Ah, no problems people...
My point is, get everything spot on, cams, remap, exhaust, intake and you are looking at a williams hovvering around the 180bhp mark.
Sorry for the long post, but its in everbodies interest to understand exactly how things can work. I'm not forcing anybody to buy anything, and i do not empoy heavy handed sales, but i do try my best to help people understand my products, which is only fair is it not?
Thanks for the reply.
How different would you cams be for other manurfacturers?
If you were to have a orted head along with those modifiction what sort of HP level are we on about and where would the torque be from? ALso what effect would an increased redline be or does that dpeends on cam timing to much what I'm trying to get at is a 7.2k vs 6.6k engine going to make much different power or power curves?
What sort of IK work are uyou refering to the normal intake system is supposed to very good isn't it in regards to the limited space isn't it?
Edde,
Camshafts is a hard area to differentiate your product from others, since its a mechanical device with a physical limitation to certain design parameters, this leaves you very little to work with, especially when offering a range of cams to suit different applications. When designing a cam you design it to work at a certain point best, everwhere else is a compramise. My cams have slightly different valve timing events than other brands, and i concentrated on generating a gentle valve acceleration ramp. For that reason, my cams tend to have the largest BCD's around, eventhough they are mild in this reference, i know you boys rev the std engine hard, so i went to some lengths to try and ensure you encounter valve float and bounce at a higher rpm limit than other cams setup due to inner spring harmonics.
On a williams running the std inlet manifold and mild cams, and especially the std injections system (limits how wild you can go without raising idle to about 1500rpm, which is basically unacceptable to most, including MOT stations), adding a ported head only really releases 5-7bhp because your not technically running out of flow, what you can increase is low end torque, reduce flow reversal for a more efficient burn, and modify they combustion chambers to reduce knock sensitivity allowing an increase in CR without affecting normal running. Torque comes in from where you want it to, this is where cam choice/CR/Head characteristics play an important role.
Increasing the redline can help alot, but only if you make sure you hold ve up at those higher rpm point which permits a increasing gradient on the bhp curve (note doesnt have to be increasing on the torque curve so long as it doesnt drop off faster than rpm is gained).
The 7.2k engine will beat the 6.6k engine every time if your talking of running the 260-ish cams were referring to, rpm wont be affecting the power curve, but it will limit you to how much of the curve you can use.
However, if you can run 7.5krpm like markR does and hold power to that point, then its a very good option.
On a williams running the std inlet manifold and mild cams, and especially the std injections system (limits how wild you can go without raising idle to about 1500rpm, which is basically unacceptable to most, including MOT stations), adding a ported head only really releases 5-7bhp because your not technically running out of flow, what you can increase is low end torque, reduce flow reversal for a more efficient burn, and modify they combustion chambers to reduce knock sensitivity allowing an increase in CR without affecting normal running. Torque comes in from where you want it to, this is where cam choice/CR/Head characteristics play an important role.
Increasing the redline can help alot, but only if you make sure you hold ve up at those higher rpm point which permits a increasing gradient on the bhp curve (note doesnt have to be increasing on the torque curve so long as it doesnt drop off faster than rpm is gained).
The 7.2k engine will beat the 6.6k engine every time if your talking of running the 260-ish cams were referring to, rpm wont be affecting the power curve, but it will limit you to how much of the curve you can use.
However, if you can run 7.5krpm like markR does and hold power to that point, then its a very good option.
Does the stock injectors cause a problem for making more than say 190hp or is it flow paterns of the injectors that limit the power just as much?
I thinkmy cars running 270 degree piper cams and the kick up at 5k is a kit annoying would be handly to give it more torque at lower rpm is that possible with these cams or would your cams be better to spec the engine up to what I'd like?
Also about your intake manifold work what sort of gains does that give (I take it thats our limiting factor when were on about cams and head work).
ALso do you have any experiance of bike throttle bodies on the F7R/P engine? If so what sort of gains would these give as they seem quite cheap in parts compaired to normal stuff.
I think since the cars used on the track I'd like to keep RPM down to 7 k rarther than 7.5k as I don't want to have to start building a bottom end etc to survive up there.
One last thing what about a bike engine and gearboxed Clio 150hp or so with a sequenchial 6 speed box (no reverse without the relevent bits but no trouble for track only cars) and a load lighter than a F7P/R engine? and possible monted low in the car.
Stock injectors in good condition can flow enough for about 200bhp, but most are in rank condition. The spray cone at high rpm, even if designated a wide cone, pencils down to a narrow cone essentially, and doesnt as such have an effect on power.
When you run wilder cams for more peak power, you will ALWAYS drop low rpm power as you sacrifice VE levels at lower rpm due to the overlap values. If you want more torque you can close up the overlap, but you WILL loose peak bhp and lower the point of peak bhp. The only way to run wilder cams without loosing low down power is to modify every component of the engine system as a whole, not something people are interested in doing for some 270 deg cams.
My intake manifold work does not extend to the F7P/R engines, the manfold curls around on itself and is impossible to get any sort of tools more than 5" up the runner. And more than that, the runners are more than large enough in crossectional area to support a large capacity V8 yet alone a small clio. Its the design of the manifold that limits power, you can break 200bhp, but you are required to push rpm upto a level which requires steel rods and forged pistons and detailed bottom end tolerancing/balancing as were talking of about 8500rpm.
Bike bodies are crap for cars wanting to make any decent bhp IMO. Yes they are cheap, but they are small, have terrible ram pipes, they are built in a narrow bank and require messing about with the connecting fingers if you wannt to space them evenly. They do not mate to a manifold in a normal manner and use silicone pipe, which leaves you with 2 abrupt steps int he runner.......crap. I wouldnt expect any decent gains on bike bodies.
Bike engines are fine, but if your car weighs anything more than 550-600kg then your going to be dealing with alot of wasted clutches and stretched chains (if you retain FWD and use a transfer diff costing about £2500), if you conver to rwd and drive off the output shaft on the box then you can run a heavier car, but then it'll be piss slow with about zero torque. Bike engines only work well in VERY VERY light vehicles. And a busa engine now will cost you in excess of £2000 for a std used engine anyway.
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