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Economical
11-08-2015, 23:24
Hi everyone the Williams failed its emissions test again today badly, lots of white smoke smells of fuel and heats up quite fast( fan kicks in after 10 mins running, any help? I'll post test results tomorrow, also I noticed on the head next to the stat housing are 2 more sensors that have been smashed off, looks like the ecu and dash temp sensors, this tells me that its a 1.8? And tots up with everybody saying," well, I was expecting it to be faster" quite disappointed, pics to come later, am I right in thinking this or am I just uneducated? Thanks guys:smile:

16v_paddy
12-08-2015, 00:15
Erm, not quite :lol:

The valver & williams uses exactly the same stat housing and sensors and if the ecu 1 is smashed off the ecu has no idea what the temperature is so can't actually make the engine run correctly. You can get new ones easily enough but you need to find the plugs that connects to them on the wiring loom.
Sounds like the head gasket has gone

Economical
12-08-2015, 06:43
Yeah but the sensors in the side of the block are in the stat housing instead? And there are no other wires on the loom? And yeah I suspected that lol��

Justin..
12-08-2015, 14:31
It may have a Renault 19 version of the engine or head fitted

Economical
12-08-2015, 16:51
Hmm interesting, how do I upload photos direct to this post? I have quite a few pics that would help explain a little better but thanks for all the advice, continue the quest!

16v_paddy
12-08-2015, 21:38
You need to click on the bit that says insert image & follow the instructions :winkey:

Wobba
18-08-2015, 20:24
Send pics, we will set you straight. Don't panic yet, it may well be the ECU is not getting the info it needs due to sensor fail.

Economical
20-08-2015, 10:46
Hi sorry for the abandonment lol, checked the car around, engine plaque says f7r a700, box is jc5014, but the head has core plugs in the spark plug well, meaning a 1.8 head? Its over fuelling like crazy stinks of petrol and fails all the emission tests, so were going to bang a fuel restrictor just to "trick" it through the mot so it can be moved around, I see it as a remap to sort it all out? Thanks again

northy
20-08-2015, 13:36
so the F7R means its a 2.0ltr block

But the head as previously said could be the R19 one. Looks like it to me. So you may have a 2.0ltr bottom end on a 1.8ltr head.

How does the inlet manifold look - can you take a picture as it goes towards the throttle body please

16v_paddy
20-08-2015, 19:44
Well that's a new 1 on me :lol: I know the 19 has a plastic thermostat housing so I'm assuming it doesn't have sensors in it hence the sensors being in the head

Those 2 broken off sensors aren't an issue tbh so you can ignore them, the important ones are in the thermostat housing.

As for the head, if it's a 1.8 head it will deffo have a detrimental effect on the performance as the valves are smaller plus you've got the added bonus of not knowing exactly what cams are in it either.
I highly doubt that will be the cause of the overfuelling though as the internals of that head will be restricting the fuel & air flow into the engine, I'd be looking more towards an air leak, coolant temp sensor that points towards the passenger wheel or something lambda related.

Remapping is an option but tbh it'll be a backwards step as you'll basically be de-tuning it because of the head being wrong. The proper fix will be fitting the correct head

Economical
21-08-2015, 10:14
72567256

Economical
21-08-2015, 10:37
Bad photo, trying to post from work, ill upload the new pics when I get home, when you say the sensor pointing the wheel, is it grey? And if so I this the ecu temp sensor? Its the only one I haven't changed, got a new fae lambda, and the brown and white temp sensors new too, with a new low pressure oil sensor

16v_paddy
21-08-2015, 19:29
No idea what the colour of the sensor is tbh but it points towards the wheel & of the 3 sensors on the thermostat housing it's the most important as it's the only 1 that "talks" to the ecu & controls fuelling. The other 2 sensors are for the fan and the display on the dash.

Northy was on about this for the pic of yours

This is what the Clio manifold looks like

http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7261&stc=1

This is what the R19 manifold looks like

http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7262&stc=1

Economical
22-08-2015, 16:37
http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7264&stc=1http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7265&stc=1http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7266&stc=1few pictures, the block isn't a f7r the back of the block isn't ridged where the crank is as far as i can see, also which ecu is this? and the grey sensor when unplugged, nothing happens, i think they blew the engine in the willams and just threw this in and sold it.

Economical
22-08-2015, 16:41
http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7267&stc=1http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7268&stc=1also the dipstick had a white dot, i scratched this off to find the propper blue dot?

16v_paddy
22-08-2015, 19:44
The plot thickens :???:

The ecu is a williams item so that's correct but it's time to get serious to solve what engine it is. The manifolds are correct but everything is pointing towards it being a bit of a con merchant job

Remove the spark plug from the cylinder closest to the cam belt, get a long enough rod/screwdriver and stick it in the hole. Remove the other 3 plugs as well as it will make the next step a lot easier to do.
Jack the car up on the drivers side, remove the wheel for easier access and get a breaker bar or big ratchet with a 19mm socket on it. Use this on the main crank pulley to turn the engine over, you might have to take the plastic cover off to get at it, the bolts are 10mm head & easy to get at.

Get a helper to watch the rod you've stuck into the bore while you turn the engine by hand, keep turning until the rod gets to the very top of it's travel, if it starts to drop, turn it back the other way until it's back at the very top. Once there, make a mark on the rod using the top of the cam cover as a reference point.
Then turn the engine by hand again until the rod gets to the very bottom and mark the rod again.
Take the rod out & measure the distance between the 2 marks and you'll know what the stroke measurement is

F7R is 93mm & F7P is 83.5mm

That measurement will show beyond any doubt what engine you've got :winkey:

Economical
23-08-2015, 13:05
http://williamsclio.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7269&stc=183.5mm :( so being a f7p? running a williams ecu, could i solve the running problems by just using an f7p ecu? also how do i know if the gearbox is a real jc5? many thankyous for the help guys:)

white16valver
23-08-2015, 20:19
Some serious detective work going on here, kudos to the level of geekery involved! :)

Economical
23-08-2015, 20:32
Also I'm doubting the whole car is a Williams, the more and more I look i can see how easy it Is to make a valver a Williams, is there any definitive way of checking the shells a williams?

16v_paddy
23-08-2015, 22:38
Also I'm doubting the whole car is a Williams, the more and more I look i can see how easy it Is to make a valver a Williams, is there any definitive way of checking the shells a williams?

Get your logbook out & compare the chassis number on that with the plate on top of the drivers headlight and the top of the suspension tower but if it's a williams the chassis number and the vin plate will have C57M on it and if it's a valver it will say C57D :winkey:

A phase 1 valver ecu will get it running correctly, doubt a phase 2 ecu will work as it's immobilised. Where your ecu says 107, the valver 1 will say 103 or 105, I can just never remember which is ph1 7 ph2 :oops:

As for the gearbox, it's tricky to tell definitively as the part numbers stamped into the casings don't always come up with what you expect & only really relate to the casing which is shared by a lot of other variants of Clio.
The main way I know of to tell the difference between a JB3 & JC5 is to look at the input shaft

JC5's have this plate type thing around the input shaft

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq165/16v_paddy/jc5_zps1prrqfgj.jpg

and the same part on a JB3 box looks like this

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq165/16v_paddy/jb3_zpsyfkmreoi.jpg

Economical
24-08-2015, 07:33
Ahh right ill check that when I get home�� so does anybody have a ph1 16v ecu I can buy?

northy
24-08-2015, 08:53
The dipstick has a blue dot on as well which denotes a 1.8. The 2.0ltrs were black.

Most probably the block and head have been swapped from the R19 16v and all your ancillary's are still original. The inlet is correct for a clio.

I would look for a bare Williams engine to swap.


The gearbox might have a ID plate on it which is held on by one of the nuts above the drive shaft. I doubt its still there.
Another way to help get more info is by looking at the colour of the end plate (viewed from behind the NS wheel)

northy
24-08-2015, 08:55
Also I'm doubting the whole car is a Williams, the more and more I look i can see how easy it Is to make a valver a Williams, is there any definitive way of checking the shells a williams?

Williams 1 / 2 should not have a sunroof.
Vin plate will read C57M & C57D for valver.
Williams will have front wide track.

Economical
24-08-2015, 10:41
Ahh ok ill check that, being no sunroof and under the carpet all blue Williams ecu and what looks like widetrack, I have high hopes that like said, the engines just been swapped, ill have more details later, but plan of action is, get valver ecu, use the car for the time being and buy a Williams engine and gearbox preferably standard but wouldent mind tuned, what would the asking prices for these be? Thanks

16v_paddy
24-08-2015, 19:50
Usually around the £300-400 mark for Williams engines & about £150 for gearboxes.

Ph1 valver ecus can go for anything up to £50

Economical
24-08-2015, 21:07
Okay them prices sound good, any of you happen to have a valver ecu? Would be happy to pay £50

16v_paddy
24-08-2015, 22:44
The hard part will be finding 1 for sale :lol:

Can anyone remember which number is ph1 & ph2? I can't remember for the life of me which it is :oops: You might get lucky on ebay but knowing what the numbers are is the critical part

Economical
25-08-2015, 11:18
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-ECU-Renault-Clio-19-1-8-16V-1990-93-F7P720-S101262101-7700744413-/271339697960?nav=SEARCH found this on ebay, I'm guessing this is the one I need as its an early model?

16v_paddy
25-08-2015, 20:21
That's not a clio ecu but it should work. I'm not familiar enough with R19 wiring etc to say 100% if it will work or not