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jill
16-08-2005, 12:12
Turns a regular 182 into a Trophy


:roll:

Swervin_Mervin
16-08-2005, 12:33
:P

Is that true? If so that's the funniest thing I've heard this month.

jill
16-08-2005, 12:35
According to Jeremy Townsend i will be one part number for all the parts needed to turn a 182 into a trophy (so basically will contain 4 dampers and some associated nuts and bolts). :P

I dont know if you get the stickers too though :P

Swervin_Mervin
16-08-2005, 12:36
AFPMSL! I might start knocking out some plaques! :P

jill
16-08-2005, 12:47
Some of the cars have been sent out without plaques.

Swervin_Mervin
16-08-2005, 13:00
Yeah I read that. Wonder if there's concrete proof that they haven't made more than 500.

KingStromba
16-08-2005, 14:02
They have doubled planned numbers in Switzerland from 50 to 100 :roll:

Swervin_Mervin
16-08-2005, 14:14
Renault's marketing team:

http://www.rocknroll.freeserve.co.uk/Goons.jpg

FlamingMonkey
16-08-2005, 14:38
I thought the dampers were exactly the same as the 182, thought the part numbers were the same or summat?

KingStromba
16-08-2005, 14:42
I think they are on the system as the same part number as reno havnt got round to adding the sach dampers to the computer yet.

edde
16-08-2005, 22:19
Since the torphy cars were just a patch of 182 cars trying to find there part number just brings up stock 182 dampers.
When dealers get the new dialogues they should have the right parts availiable then.
The damper and springs are different I think.

KingStromba
16-08-2005, 23:37
Trick dampers. Loads of road cars use remote resevoir dampers. Glad evo think its new technology :roll:

I beleive the s2000 uses remote resevoir dampers. Funny how evo havnt got a bollock out over that car, despite its very very good handling :roll:

Quote:

'The HONDA S2000 suspension system is well damped without being harsh, thanks to its Honda Progressive Valve (HPV) shock absorbers. These gas-pressure dampers use a stacked disc-valve arrangement that yields easily and progressively to high-velocity damper-piston movement, such as that created by bumps or road impact. However, when they encounter the slower movement typical of body motion, the disc valves offer more resistance and increase the damping force.

As well as being compact, the racing-style coaxial spring/damper units both front and rear offer low friction characteristics, while another motorsport-inspired feature at the rear is a separate gas reservoir which allows a bigger piston than could be accommodated in the body of the damper, to give a finer ride quality.

Honda also worked closely with Bridgestone in developing suitable tyres and the construction and rubber compound of the Expedia S02 tread pattern are specifically tailored for the HONDA S2000. The standard 16 in diameter, five-spoke, dished centre, alloy rims are shod with 205/55VR16 tyres at the front and 225/50VR16 tyres at the rear.'

Trick suspension? Specially developed tyres? Though only Reno did that? :roll:

Oh wait, honda dont pick up the evo tab though do they?

edde
17-08-2005, 00:03
Trick dampers. Loads of road cars use remote resevoir dampers. Glad evo think its new technology :roll:

I beleive the s2000 uses remote resevoir dampers. Funny how evo havnt got a bollock out over that car, despite its very very good handling :roll:

Quote:

'The HONDA S2000 suspension system is well damped without being harsh, thanks to its Honda Progressive Valve (HPV) shock absorbers. These gas-pressure dampers use a stacked disc-valve arrangement that yields easily and progressively to high-velocity damper-piston movement, such as that created by bumps or road impact. However, when they encounter the slower movement typical of body motion, the disc valves offer more resistance and increase the damping force.

As well as being compact, the racing-style coaxial spring/damper units both front and rear offer low friction characteristics, while another motorsport-inspired feature at the rear is a separate gas reservoir which allows a bigger piston than could be accommodated in the body of the damper, to give a finer ride quality.

Oh wait, honda dont pick up the evo tab though do they?
I know what you mean but the S2000 isn't in the same legue as the £13k or so cheap hot hatch market. The s2000 market wouldn't accept stock cheapish dampers like the 182 has the 182 has them due to cost. It I bought a mc donalds burget and they gave me some small steak instead of meat I'd be happy for £3. If they served me a small piece of steak at a posh place for £20 I'd not be happy.
I do agree though the torphy is getting a lot of attention I think evo have one at the moment on the fast fleet. Maybe it realy is that good but then again when you accept freebies maybe the rules arn't always as stright as they could be.

Zollo
17-08-2005, 00:15
If you take that tact then Stromba, would it not be good for Renault to have their past hot hatches do well in certain ECOTD features? I think it would. May be that result was fixed for Renault too then?

Or on the other hand, would it not be bad for Renault to have their newest models beaten by their older, disscontinued model. Are you so sure Evo favour Renault when they say stuff like, "the damping of the Williams is a lot better than the 182". Surely that's bad for Renault?

And what about the other magazines, such as Autocar, Car etc? They're not even owned by the same publishing companies. So why are they banging on about how good the Trophy is?

KingStromba
17-08-2005, 00:20
As far as i can see the main reason to fit a remote resevoir damper is to prevent damper fade as the oil heats up (more oil = cooler oil = less fade = more consistent damping performance over the course of a race).

Unless you are doing 25 blistering laps one after another i really cant see the point of the remote resevoir damper. It just screams marketing bullshit to me. And people fall for it.

The reason the Trophy corners flatter and handles harder is not becuase of the remote resevoir damper, but because its a stiffer set up than a noraml 182 = more track orientated). And people fail to grasp the fact that you cant set a car up for more than one task without compremising in other areas. The Trophy is set up for the track so de facto it has to be a worse road car over bumps. Cars can be good over bumps or good over a smooth track, you cant have both.

And the brakes will fade and youll have to stop way before the dampers fade so it really is irrelevant.

If Renault had fitted brembo 4 pots to the car instead of remote resevoir dampers the car would have been quicker round a track, no doubt about that in my mind. But people understand brakes, and the likes of evo mag and reno marketing wouldnt be able to band around technical jargon relating to brakes so freely and people would just say'hang on its just a 182 with brembos'. Whereas in reality they should be saying 'hang on its just a 182 with stupidly expensive overkill dampers'.

KingStromba
17-08-2005, 00:36
If you take that tact then Stromba, would it not be good for Renault to have their past hot hatches do well in certain ECOTD features? I think it would. May be that result was fixed for Renault too then?

Or on the other hand, would it not be bad for Renault to have their newest models beaten by their older, disscontinued model. Are you so sure Evo favour Renault when they say stuff like, "the damping of the Williams is a lot better than the 182". Surely that's bad for Renault?

And what about the other magazines, such as Autocar, Car etc? They're not even owned by the same publishing companies. So why are they banging on about how good the Trophy is?


Its a fact that every subsequent model of 172 / 182 that has come out has been perceived by evo as even better than the last.

The law of diminishing returns states that this is not possible for ever. Yet it keeps happening.

Lets face it, if we where given all the rs models from the 172 cup to the Trophy to drive and review in chronological order, we would reach a point when we said 'hang on its a great car, but really no better than the last 182 variant'.


I love the latter rs cars, but renault are making them all ordinary with too many variants of each one. You could have 7 182 owners in the same room and each could have a different car.

182 trophy
182 cup with trophy suspension
182 full fat with cup packs
182 full fat with cup packs with trophy suspension
182 full fat
182 cup
182 full fat with trophy suspension

Have i missed one? Rediculous :roll:

Zollo
18-08-2005, 13:13
As far as i can see the main reason to fit a remote resevoir damper is to prevent damper fade as the oil heats up (more oil = cooler oil = less fade = more consistent damping performance over the course of a race).

Unless you are doing 25 blistering laps one after another i really cant see the point of the remote resevoir damper. It just screams marketing bullshit to me. And people fall for it.

The reason the Trophy corners flatter and handles harder is not becuase of the remote resevoir damper, but because its a stiffer set up than a noraml 182 = more track orientated). And people fail to grasp the fact that you cant set a car up for more than one task without compremising in other areas. The Trophy is set up for the track so de facto it has to be a worse road car over bumps. Cars can be good over bumps or good over a smooth track, you cant have both.

And the brakes will fade and youll have to stop way before the dampers fade so it really is irrelevant.

If Renault had fitted brembo 4 pots to the car instead of remote resevoir dampers the car would have been quicker round a track, no doubt about that in my mind. But people understand brakes, and the likes of evo mag and reno marketing wouldnt be able to band around technical jargon relating to brakes so freely and people would just say'hang on its just a 182 with brembos'. Whereas in reality they should be saying 'hang on its just a 182 with stupidly expensive overkill dampers'.

Whatever your opinion of how to make a good hot hatch, that doesn't prove anything regarding Evo being on Renault's 'books'.

Zollo
18-08-2005, 13:15
Its a fact that every subsequent model of 172 / 182 that has come out has been perceived by evo as even better than the last.

The law of diminishing returns states that this is not possible for ever. Yet it keeps happening.

Lets face it, if we where given all the rs models from the 172 cup to the Trophy to drive and review in chronological order, we would reach a point when we said 'hang on its a great car, but really no better than the last 182 variant'.


I love the latter rs cars, but renault are making them all ordinary with too many variants of each one. You could have 7 182 owners in the same room and each could have a different car.

182 trophy
182 cup with trophy suspension
182 full fat with cup packs
182 full fat with cup packs with trophy suspension
182 full fat
182 cup
182 full fat with trophy suspension

Have i missed one? Rediculous :roll:

The Porsche 996, Ferrari 360, Lotus Elise all have plenty of variants of the same model, but I don't think that does the manufacturers or the cars any harm does it?

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 13:27
What would be quicker round a track?

A 182 Trophy or a normal 182 with brembo 4 pots?

IMO the normal 182 with brembo 4 pots would be.



So IF Renault really wanted to make a quicker car designed for track use, isnt all they had to do is bang on some hefty non fadable brakes, and perhaps fit a factory strut brace?

However, if they wanted to bullshit everyone with something that nobody understands, wouldnt it be better to fit some overkill dampers that in reality do **** all for the car, but make people beleive they have some kind of magic bullet to what is a a pretty lifeless car in standard trim?

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 13:32
And then you have the problem that mark highlighted a few weeks ago.

These cars eat bearings and balljoints on track days. How many people have been driving around in 10,000 mile thrashed 182's (evo boys included) after doing hard miles and a few track days, and then gone and sat in a brand new Trophy and claimed that it is a better car because it feels tighter?

No shit it feels tighter, it hasnt been ragged for the best part of 10,000 and become sloppy and loose.


People always compare old with new and the comparison is always unfair and unscientific.


I have just had new bearings and balljoints in my Williams and i could lap a track seconds quicker now than before. It doesnt mean however that the car has suddenly been painted red and had Trophy written on the sides. :roll:

J o n
18-08-2005, 13:40
thing is most consumers wont give a crap on the damping type or name, they will just be aware of the minor suspension changes that ALL RS models have had when new models have come out... it's only normal for them to do this. The Cup packs are only slight changes, the trophy reminds me more of the 172 Cup and I think it looks fantastic. I'd consider one personally. It stands out and is more exclusive, I dont think they really need to try that hard to sell them, for the spec it's an absolute bargain.
Having said that I cant wait to see one on the road and give it a pasting in the Willy :D

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 13:41
And i know for a fact that the evo boys didnt particularly like the 172 / 182 engine characteristics because they told me that they prefered the engine in my Williams (lots more out of corner traction they said and a better lower down pull) and wished reno had put that in the 172 cup instead of the peaky engine it has.

Yet now they suddenly like it :roll:


Quote from John Whatitsname after his first drive in Williams as he stepped from the car 'why dont reno make engines like that anymore?'

J o n
18-08-2005, 13:47
you sure they were not just trying to stop you boring them to death about the Williams and instead told you what you wanted to hear? ;) lol

I dont like Subaru engine characteristics (well, turbo's in general), doesn't mean I dont enjoy driving and thrashing them about when given the opportunity. Engine charater is just one area to consider, doesn't make a car bad. Think about all the VAG cars, the 1.8T is supposed to be the most boring engine ever, but cars like the TT and A3 etc etc all get rave reviews.

Zollo
18-08-2005, 13:47
And then you have the problem that mark highlighted a few weeks ago.

These cars eat bearings and balljoints on track days. How many people have been driving around in 10,000 mile thrashed 182's (evo boys included) after doing hard miles and a few track days, and then gone and sat in a brand new Trophy and claimed that it is a better car because it feels tighter?

No shit it feels tighter, it hasnt been ragged for the best part of 10,000 and become sloppy and loose.


People always compare old with new and the comparison is always unfair and unscientific.


I have just had new bearings and balljoints in my Williams and i could lap a track seconds quicker now than before. It doesnt mean however that the car has suddenly been painted red and had Trophy written on the sides. :roll:

You keep on changing your point and coming up with different reasons to rubbish this car :? . You're great at argueing mate!

Usually press cars come from new, so the journo's will have all sampled the standard 182 as it should be. They will be able to remember exactly what it was like, and compare accordingly. I think they're experienced enough to realise the point you raise above; it's their job.

As an aside, I reckon a normal 182 Cup would have provided much the same result in the M6 vs Trophy feature. What Evo are highlighting is the giant slaying ability of the Clio. As they have done for years with other cars. I remember a 205 GTi vs Lotus Esprit in Performance Car years ago; same result there.

I think it should be applauded that Renault are still improving and refining their hot hatch whilst other manufacturers loss the plot (Peugeot springs to mind :roll: ).

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 15:06
If you have ever been in a car like the M6, Porsche GT3 or Impreza P1, you will know in your heart of heart that there is no way in this world that a Clio can keep up with one.

These cars are in a different league. Sure a well driven clio could keep up with Mr two left hands old boy driving his first super car, but in experienced hands its bye bye clio.

Even a standard Boxster (the non s version) is IMO such a better handling car than a 182 than it would be able to dispatch one no problem. I know i could and im no great driver. The feel of the car is very much like a Williams (light and nimble with perfectly weighted steering feel), but ontop of that you have a gorgeous V6 which just gives you power and traction EVERYWHERE. The S version must be a dream to drive.

No fwd car can deal with a well set up mid engined sports coupe, unless you start to employ expensive tricks like lsd's (ala Honda Type R Integra) or 4 wheel steering.


A clio is a great drivers car, but not in the ultimate scheme of things a supercar.

Watch the video of 2live overtaking that Integra type R at oulton park. Watch the end of the clip and see how much more speed the Porsche carries through the corner on the damp track. It just beasts its way through. Different league.

Tommo
18-08-2005, 15:16
If you have ever been in a car like the M6, Porsche GT3 or Impreza P1, you will know in your heart of heart that there is no way in this world that a Clio can keep up with one.

These cars are in a different league. Sure a well driven clio could keep up with Mr two left hands old boy driving his first super car, but in experienced hands its bye bye clio.

Even a standard Boxster (the non s version) is IMO such a better handling car than a 182 than it would be able to dispatch one no problem. I know i could and im no great driver. The feel of the car is very much like a Williams (light and nimble with perfectly weighted steering feel), but ontop of that you have a gorgeous V6 which just gives you power and traction EVERYWHERE. The S version must be a dream to drive.

No fwd car can deal with a well set up mid engined sports coupe, unless you start to employ expensive tricks like lsd's (ala Honda Type R Integra) or 4 wheel steering.


A clio is a great drivers car, but not in the ultimate scheme of things a supercar.

Watch the video of 2live overtaking that Integra type R at oulton park. Watch the end of the clip and see how much more speed the Porsche carries through the corner on the damp track. It just beasts its way through. Different league.

Didn't 0002 give a Honda NSX a pasting in Evo car of the decade? I assume these two drivers were very experienced and their driving abilities very closely matched??

I agree that any variation of the Clio wouldn't be able to compete with big BHP supercars on a straight road, or even a track, but on the twisties I think the Williams is more than a match tbh

Zollo
18-08-2005, 15:18
If you have ever been in a car like the M6, Porsche GT3 or Impreza P1, you will know in your heart of heart that there is no way in this world that a Clio can keep up with one.

These cars are in a different league. Sure a well driven clio could keep up with Mr two left hands old boy driving his first super car, but in experienced hands its bye bye clio.

Even a standard Boxster (the non s version) is IMO such a better handling car than a 182 than it would be able to dispatch one no problem. I know i could and im no great driver. The feel of the car is very much like a Williams (light and nimble with perfectly weighted steering feel), but ontop of that you have a gorgeous V6 which just gives you power and traction EVERYWHERE. The S version must be a dream to drive.

No fwd car can deal with a well set up mid engined sports coupe, unless you start to employ expensive tricks like lsd's (ala Honda Type R Integra) or 4 wheel steering.


A clio is a great drivers car, but not in the ultimate scheme of things a supercar.

Watch the video of 2live overtaking that Integra type R at oulton park. Watch the end of the clip and see how much more speed the Porsche carries through the corner on the damp track. It just beasts its way through. Different league.

First of all, is the NSX Type R not a supercar? And the FWD Williams was able to keep up was it not? If you read magazines enough you'll realise that under certain cirmcumstances a supercar's ability cannot be used fully. I would have thought you'd know this more than most. Read the feature and you'll understand what they're saying.

I understand what you're saying, but this has nothing to do with how good the 182 and Trophy is! :roll:

The comment about 2live and the Porsche - It's stupid to prove anything from a short video clip like that. But I agree, a Porsche 996 can be driven faster round a track than a Clio. Not exactly a surprise.

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 15:25
The road that evo tested the cars on was very very winding (single track in some places). The Williams was a match in the wet on this road, more due to the crap surface, wet conditions, and very twisty nature of the road. Unless you have been to Wales its difficult to understand just how winding these roads are. Basically it was like a rally stage. None of the bigger cars could get proper traction in the wet, plus there was no real long straights without blind crests or ramdom sheep wanderings to hammer the powerful cars.

A zonda is really a racing car designed for smooth surface race tracks, not doing Jean Ragnotti impressions on a road resembling something built by the Guana trasport authorities.


On a normal B road, the Williams would have no chance.


So yes the Williams did hold its own, but i think the circumstances helped.

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 15:30
If you have ever been in a car like the M6, Porsche GT3 or Impreza P1, you will know in your heart of heart that there is no way in this world that a Clio can keep up with one.

These cars are in a different league. Sure a well driven clio could keep up with Mr two left hands old boy driving his first super car, but in experienced hands its bye bye clio.

Even a standard Boxster (the non s version) is IMO such a better handling car than a 182 than it would be able to dispatch one no problem. I know i could and im no great driver. The feel of the car is very much like a Williams (light and nimble with perfectly weighted steering feel), but ontop of that you have a gorgeous V6 which just gives you power and traction EVERYWHERE. The S version must be a dream to drive.

No fwd car can deal with a well set up mid engined sports coupe, unless you start to employ expensive tricks like lsd's (ala Honda Type R Integra) or 4 wheel steering.


A clio is a great drivers car, but not in the ultimate scheme of things a supercar.

Watch the video of 2live overtaking that Integra type R at oulton park. Watch the end of the clip and see how much more speed the Porsche carries through the corner on the damp track. It just beasts its way through. Different league.

First of all, is the NSX Type R not a supercar? And the FWD Williams was able to keep up was it not? If you read magazines enough you'll realise that under certain cirmcumstances a supercar's ability cannot be used fully. I would have thought you'd know this more than most. Read the feature and you'll understand what they're saying.

I understand what you're saying, but this has nothing to do with how good the 182 and Trophy is! :roll:


Im saying a trophy could not deal with an M6 even with magic mushroom dampers and wheel barrow exhausts.

The comment about 2live and the Porsche - It's stupid to prove anything from a short video clip like that. But I agree, a Porsche 996 can be driven faster round a track than a Clio. Not exactly a surprise.

The Porsche comment was an illustration of my wider point, that these cars have such better handling and grip (if you know how to use it), that even in the 'twisties' they are able to comprehensively destroy a Trophy. Not that some would ever admit it.

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 15:32
Lest not forget chaps that the Williams was designed as a rally car and as such, on rally type courses is going to be able to beat track designed cars, just as a lawnmover will beat a Ferrari in a grass cutting competition.

Tommo
18-08-2005, 15:50
Although saying that I have been in a friends P1 (admittedly not a supercar) and he was giving it some serious stick down some twisty back roads and it felt very, very fast - I thought to myself at the time I would get a pasting in the Williams, even an experienced racing driver would struggle to keep up with one imo. The grip them cars have is unbelievable, and the speed out of the bends is simply mind blowing!!!

Sorry to go off topic about the Trophy!!

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 15:54
I agree, ask Paul Mitchel the kind of pasting he got from one in his Lotus Charlton.

i call the fools cars, as any fool can drive them quick. I agree that a normal bloke in a P1 could keep with most supercars. Grip is amazing, and the brakes are unbeleivable.

J o n
18-08-2005, 16:07
If you have ever been in a car like the M6, Porsche GT3 or Impreza P1, you will know in your heart of heart that there is no way in this world that a Clio can keep up with one.

These cars are in a different league. Sure a well driven clio could keep up with Mr two left hands old boy driving his first super car, but in experienced hands its bye bye clio.

Even a standard Boxster (the non s version) is IMO such a better handling car than a 182 than it would be able to dispatch one no problem. I know i could and im no great driver. The feel of the car is very much like a Williams (light and nimble with perfectly weighted steering feel), but ontop of that you have a gorgeous V6 which just gives you power and traction EVERYWHERE. The S version must be a dream to drive.

No fwd car can deal with a well set up mid engined sports coupe, unless you start to employ expensive tricks like lsd's (ala Honda Type R Integra) or 4 wheel steering.


A clio is a great drivers car, but not in the ultimate scheme of things a supercar.

Watch the video of 2live overtaking that Integra type R at oulton park. Watch the end of the clip and see how much more speed the Porsche carries through the corner on the damp track. It just beasts its way through. Different league.

looking at the rest of the thread where has all this come from? you seem to be arguing with yourself as nobody said any Clio was better or faster than any of the cars listed... :?
as for no FWD car keeping up with mid engined rear wheel drive cars the example you chose of the Teggy is a bit misleading, all an LSD will do is give it more grip, what about chassis balance? I think the Boxter is a bad example too, the Boxter S would paste any Clio imo, but the normal Boxters are slower and would struggle on the straights and as far as bends go it really depends on the type of corners and roads your talking about. I'd have a go against a Boxter and expect to be passing it and staying infront.

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 16:35
looking at the rest of the thread where has all this come from? you seem to be arguing with yourself as nobody said any Clio was better or faster than any of the cars listed... :?
as for no FWD car keeping up with mid engined rear wheel drive cars the example you chose of the Teggy is a bit misleading, all an LSD will do is give it more grip, what about chassis balance? I think the Boxter is a bad example too, the Boxter S would paste any Clio imo, but the normal Boxters are slower and would struggle on the straights and as far as bends go it really depends on the type of corners and roads your talking about. I'd have a go against a Boxter and expect to be passing it and staying infront.


How many miles have you driven in Boxsters?

J o n
18-08-2005, 16:44
lol, my aunt has one and a Carrera, so dont start ;)

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 16:50
Lets see a pic of you in it. I can get a pic of me in the one i drive if you like.

J o n
18-08-2005, 16:55
next time she's over no problem. if my cousin in it i'll try and get some vids of me pissing all over it down the A34 if your not banned by then ;)

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 17:20
Cheers pal. I bet you look really handsome in it :wink:

J o n
18-08-2005, 17:56
in anything really... apart from drag... :shock: :? :lol:

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 18:24
Do you hang around outside Brannigans to pick up young ladies in it?

J o n
18-08-2005, 18:27
always

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 18:29
Im sure i saw you there, and again outside rosie's ignoring the pedestrian access only signs.

J o n
18-08-2005, 18:35
yeah, must deffo have been me, as i saw 4 young boys getting into a Williams and driving off at about 25 in a 30 zone :lol:

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 18:45
Yeah i saw them too. Dont think the black bumper suited the car though tbh :wink:

Zollo
18-08-2005, 19:07
As Jesus said, no one was saying a hot hacth is better or more than a supercar. You've gone from going on about how your car beat an NSX-R to playing it down and saying it'll only do it on twisty tight bumpy roads! Which is what I said anyway!

My original point was that the Trophy is one of the best hot hatches and is worthy of the praise it's given.

And yes, I've driven more than just a few hot hatches :wink:

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 19:13
But its my thread so i can go on about what i like :wink:

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 19:15
As Jesus said, no one was saying a hot hacth is better or more than a supercar. You've gone from going on about how your car beat an NSX-R to playing it down and saying it'll only do it on twisty tight bumpy roads! Which is what I said anyway!

My original point was that the Trophy is one of the best hot hatches and is worthy of the praise it's given.

And yes, I've driven more than just a few hot hatches :wink:


You honestly think that when i go on about the Williams beating an NSX in the twisties i am being deadly serious?

If you want to see my legit posts look in technical forum. Everything else is to be taken with a pinch of salt :wink:

Zollo
18-08-2005, 19:23
I would believe you entirely if you told me the owner of the NSX was driving it and the Willy was driven be Meaden, Barker etc. All down to the driver, even with two cars as unfairly matched as that.

So, we're agreed, the Trophy is better than an M6 :wink: :P

KingStromba
18-08-2005, 19:24
A trophy will never be a proper car because you dont sit it it, you sit on it.

Zollo
18-08-2005, 19:31
lol. Same as a 205 GTi though, and that's a proper man's man of a car.

Enid
19-08-2005, 12:19
Lest not forget chaps that the Williams was designed as a rally car and as such, on rally type courses is going to be able to beat track designed cars, just as a lawnmover will beat a Ferrari in a grass cutting competition.

But a ferrari doesn't have any blades so thats unfair :roll:

Anyhow, it makes sense to me that on a course that consisted of mainly tight hairpin style corners and only short straights a car like the Trophy/Williams/182 cup pack trophy sprung full fat ninja bastard would be more than a match for a big heavy car like the M6. However put both cars on say the nurburgring with its fast sweeping corners and the situation would be somewhat different as thats where a car like the M6 would excel.

KingStromba
19-08-2005, 12:32
I agree ian, the trouble is people read the Evo artical and erroneously transfer what is printed to real life on the track / road. People who have bought Trophys actually beleive they are quicker than the likes of M3's and Clio V6's.

Any browse through any of the 100 trophy threads on cliosport will show that.

J o n
19-08-2005, 12:49
that's only your interpretation, if you can talk about a Willy beating an NSX and give the impression you believe it, then why cant anyone else? is it cos your the king, innit?

the threads on CS are boring I agree, but then the site is geared towards MK2's which we knew anyway.

KingStromba
19-08-2005, 14:28
The story about the Williams beating the NSX was true, as witnessed by Riplash (in a different car to me).

But my point is - it only happened like that because of the circumstances. Wet road. Narrow cicanes and hairpins. Gravel surface over tarmac.

There is a thread about 182 v V6 on cliosport. Give it a read, these people honestly beleive thet a 182 will beat a V6 255 round a standard track.

edde
19-08-2005, 21:22
There is a thread about 182 v V6 on cliosport. Give it a read, these people honestly beleive thet a 182 will beat a V6 255 round a standard track.
I'd say 99% of drivers will get a 182 round faster particularly a trophy version the V6 is a superb car don't get me wrong but you have to be a good driver to be able to use it. IMO the 182 etc is more track orientated.
Anyway its down to driver skill KS I've seen Williams loose on the track to coilovered diesels and that was on the corners where the WIlliams is supposed to shine.

KingStromba
19-08-2005, 21:30
Sos im not trying to have a go at you, you know more about cars than me. But the first time i sat in a V6 i could drive it ALOT faster than my Williams.

Sure its not as good drivers car, and the steering is wank, but the power means on the straights its bye bye 150 bhp clio.

edde
20-08-2005, 00:57
Sos im not trying to have a go at you, you know more about cars than me. But the first time i sat in a V6 i could drive it ALOT faster than my Williams.

Sure its not as good drivers car, and the steering is wank, but the power means on the straights its bye bye 150 bhp clio.
I know nothing about cars just my own experiance with them (however limited) would lead me to think they weren't any quicker. Did the RWD not put you off? I wish I'd taken the V6 out at Oulton in some ways but theres always another track day.
They are quicker on the straight we have to use our superier cornering speeds to beat them.
To be fair I'd have a V6 any time I'd swop both of my cars for one I think for all there weeknesses. if they did a dci one that would be even better but hey cannot have everything.

KingStromba
20-08-2005, 11:05
The only think i didnt like was the soggy steering and the crap turning circle.

The most difficult thing to get used to is the car trying to swap ends under heavy braking.

The grip levels on corners is amazing, and as i was on a road and it was the first time id driven it, i never found that limit. But it was far superior to a Williams as would be expected.

Its not as good a drivers car, and id get more kicks driving the Williams, but the V6 255 is generally faster, no question.