Uprated brakes provide no benefit if originals can lock?

[GabrielKnight]

What benefits are there of upgrading the disks and pads, if the original brakes can easily lock the wheels / trigger ABS on the Williams anyway?

The quickest way to slow down a vehicle is to apply just enough pressure to the brakes without the wheels locking / triggering ABS.

Given that the standard Wiliams will usually go into a skid / trigger ABS if travelling at speed then flooring the brake pedal, what is the advantage of buying stronger brakes that will presumedly just lock earlier?

[fabulicious]

http://www.autos.com/aftermarket-parts/how-4-pot-calipers-help-improve-braking

[GabrielKnight]

I must admit I hadn't considered using more caliper pots but will look more into it. I can see how sharing the braking power across different areas would reduce fade.

However, I assume in the end it means using bigger / more calipers overall? I think this would be a step too far for me as I'm trying to keep my Willy as original as poss, which in my case means that there are no upgrades that can be observed with the casual eye.

I was thinking more about little cheat upgrades, like using ferodo ds2500 pads instead of the Renault ones. The 2500s get great reviews, but I can't see how they can stop the car any faster, for the reasons given before. If anything, as the brakes are stronger, I'd imagine that the initial bite to full on lock would be thinner and more difficult to guage with the foot.

[gdaniel]

Repeated braking builds up heat, as that rises other factors start coming into play like brake fade etc which can deminish the efficiency of the system. I understand ur theory but if u do a wee bit of reading up you wont be long in learning the ins and outs of such things. Cheers.

[gdaniel]

Pads can glaze up, cheaper disks can warp. If you want to uprate your brakes without affecting the looks your best bet would be good pads, quality disks, a good brake fluid with high wet and dry boiling points and some braided brake lines.

[gdaniel]

And the best brakes in the world are only as good as the tyre connecting you to the road. Shit tyres and u lock with ease, good tyres will help you stop better. [/list][/list]

[GabrielKnight]

I've honestly been reading about it all day. It becomes confusing because a lot of the reveiws for uprated pads seem to suggest that uprated pads slow the car more quickly in everyday road use. Can we agree that this isn't possible?

Regarding the brake fade issue, the problem I have is that any car going at a given speed will need to use the same amount of friction to bring it to a stop. Whether the pad is rough and slows down quickly or softer and takes more time, laws of physics asserts that the same amount of total friction must be equal to do the same job.

Any energy (including friction) ultimately becomes heat. Given that the same amount of friction is needed, the heat generated by a 'performance' pad will be the same (or greater because the slower brake has more time to cool).

The only answer I can think of is that the uprated pads contain compounds that still have gripping power at higher heats than the the original brakes can withstand.

So, is that all it comes down to? Uprated disks / pads provide no advantage when avoiding traffic on the way to work, but are designed to work better as the brake system heat rises?

[gdaniel]

Well in regardss to your first paragraph a one off stop will be negligible, however if u do ten hard stop in succession the uprated brakes should perform better. Hot brakes can be affected in a lot of different ways, from pad glaze to boiling fluid, but without getting into the science of it all, as far as ur concerned for daily commute / doddling about they will give you very little benefit.

[GabrielKnight]

K. At what point, if I use the ds2500s instead of the Renault pads, and use Castrol SRF, would I notice a difference?

Tbh, using the standard kit, there are times when I feel like I'm giving 9/10 on quiet uk roads up to an hour of fairly harsh driving / braking, but I've never felt brake fade.

Maybe it's because my tyres are near perfect, or others get even more speed / braking power, or down to my driving style, I've never had any problems. I haven't done any track days though.

Should I make the £100 upgrade to be on the safe side, or stick with what's worked?

[gdaniel]

Well, driving style is a huge factor in how any brake system performs for you, im not too clued up on the clio (im a honda n bmw man really) but from what most say on here, the std brakes are pretty decent as is. From what you say, id stick to genuine renault parts and some new decent fluid. Watch with some of the higher rated fluids as altho they have higher boiling points, they can also absorb moisture easier and thus need changed every 3-6 months depending. So id say genuine parts or if you really want to upgrade stick to reputable names such as ferodo/ pagid etc etc.

[16v_paddy]

In short, the standard stuff is perfectly adequate for driving like an OAP it's the prolonged, repeated & harder use of the brakes when making swift progress that the uprated stuff comes into it's own and the standard stuff begins to show it's weaknesses

[sideways danny]

all a pay off between tyres and brakes. Once you cause a lock up, you need better tyres, then improve the brakes until you're at the point of locking up again, and get better tyres again

or just buy good tyres to start with, the best brakes you can afford, and modulate your brake pedal

[GabrielKnight]

Yes, I do use gears more than most probably do, but this is probably a bad idea because a new set of gears is 4-5 times as much as a new set of brakes?

I feel much more informed than before, thanks.

I'll ask this question re. my brakes here so as not to make another thread today:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Goodridge-4-Line-Brake-Kit-S-S-Ren-Clio-Williams-16v-/170613591959

Any reaason not to buy some if I'm planning on keeping the car for a few more years? I'm assuming it's a non-obvious upgrade to the original spec that might provide some long-term advantages?, and while I'm getting my brakes done....

[fabulicious]

If they instill confidence in you to drive at your own pace comfortably and within control of the car then it's a no brainer. Stick with what you've got.

Other's will have different applications for their cars and find the standard setup inadequate for their use or may wish to try different options.

Me, I have decided that OE parts , especially consumables like brakes, clutch's, exhausts are not worth paying for. They rust, brake and leak like you would not believe.

If you want a "standard" williams and do not want to be replacing parts every 6/12 months then lock it away in a garage and be done with it.
Just my tupence worth.

what a long day. i'm off to bed :)

[jock]

Reason not to buy braided lines: saving money! ;-)
sideways, paddy and Fab summed it up for you. Decide what do you want to achieve at the end of the day, fitting fast road pads that still work when they are cold without you busting a blood vessel when a granny steps out at the end of your road, but give you more confidence if you are on a mission and braking repeatedly from 80 to 30 into your favourate set of roundabouts is prob all you need.
Fitting front braided lines may give a more direct initial feel too if your old rubber ones are past their best but make sure they are williams fitting if you have a willy as they need to be longer than the 16v ones due to the wider track.
Best thing; Learn to use the brakes with a bit of feel, dont do emergency stops everywhere, squeeze them on to start with to get some weight on the front wheels then push your bum into the back of the seat and come off them gently once you got most of the speed off.

[16v_paddy]

Fitting front braided lines may give a more direct initial feel too if your old rubber ones are past their best but make sure they are williams fitting if you have a willy as they need to be longer than the 16v ones due to the wider track.

For peace of mind just get R19 16v hoses as it can be hit & miss with getting the right ones for the clio, some have been labelled/sold as williams items but are actually for the valver

[GabrielKnight]

Thanks for the help and advice guys.

Just to let you know, in the end I opted for original front disks, local Renault provided for £55 + VAT. Twice the price of an equally good equivalent, but original to the car and the guy is bringing it to my door as part of the price.

I've plumbed for the DS2500s because it seems like a sensible, discreet upgrade and the pads don't tend to last as long so can be changed back to standard in the relatively near future. It's not stock, but to me, feels like a semi-replaceable part that isn't going one step too far.

It'll give me a few thousand miles to try something new before changing back to Renault and might push me further, even to doing a trackday or two.

[Grizzler]

This picture ends this discussion:

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/Tea_Drinker/MartinCadwell.jpg

Standard calipers, standard discs and some uprated pads. Martin did this all day long and reported (on this forum search for the post) that he got no fade.

[Coops]

he wasnt braking there.....hence no brake lights!lol!

[jock]

Prob turned in too early with too much speed and is still off the power to get it that unbalanced! ;-)

[Harry Monk]

he wasnt braking there.....hence no brake lights!lol!

Weight has transferred to front wheels, hence the amazing grip he has for the turn in. What do you think caused this weight transfer? Magic dust?

[2 live]

and no seats, dash, trim, door inners etc etc etc so nowhere near the same weight of a std car for the piss poor std pads to cope with :roll:

[Harry Monk]

and no seats, dash, trim, door inners etc etc etc so nowhere near the same weight of a std car for the piss poor std pads to cope with :roll:

Cups ran standard calipers and uprated pads too.

[Harry Monk]

Yeah 'no seats'. Martin is floating his body over the seat rails

[2 live]

Yeah 'no seats'. Martin is floating his body over the seat rails


lol. pedantic fukker ;). of course the rear passengers had a comfy ride sat on the floor :roll:


and yes, the cup cars ran std setup with uprated pads, like myself, of course, theres nothing wrong with the std pads, hence the cups running uprated items.


personally i found i could get fade quite easily with even just a short blast on moorland roads. and on track, 8-9 laps of oulton and they were shot for a while. with the ds2500 fitted, not once did i suffer from fade. oulton, donnington, spa. never once did they let me down other than the bias valve failing, not that this was the fault of the uprated pads

[Harry Monk]

Yeah 'no seats'. Martin is floating his body over the seat rails


lol. pedantic fukker ;). of course the rear passengers had a comfy ride sat on the floor :roll:


and yes, the cup cars ran std setup with uprated pads, like myself, of course, theres nothing wrong with the std pads, hence the cups running uprated items.


personally i found i could get fade quite easily with even just a short blast on moorland roads. and on track, 8-9 laps of oulton and they were shot for a while. with the ds2500 fitted, not once did i suffer from fade. oulton, donnington, spa. never once did they let me down other than the bias valve failing, not that this was the fault of the uprated pads

You are probably heavy on the brakes. Maybe your front shocks are worn? Maybe you over brake? Maybe you need to change the fluid? Who knows. But the FACT remains that Martin drove his car hard for the entire day with standard calipers and reported no fading.

What happens to you on your secret visits to your secluded moorland roads i have no understanding of and dont really care to be honest.

The post was about Martin, not you.

[schakal]

This picture ends this discussion:

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/Tea_Drinker/MartinCadwell.jpg




photoshop.com :wink:


:D :D :D

[Harry Monk]

This picture ends this discussion:

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/Tea_Drinker/MartinCadwell.jpg




photoshop.com :wink:


:D :D :D

If a 9 braked that hard the windscreen would probably fall out.

[2 live]

Yeah 'no seats'. Martin is floating his body over the seat rails


lol. pedantic fukker ;). of course the rear passengers had a comfy ride sat on the floor :roll:


and yes, the cup cars ran std setup with uprated pads, like myself, of course, theres nothing wrong with the std pads, hence the cups running uprated items.


personally i found i could get fade quite easily with even just a short blast on moorland roads. and on track, 8-9 laps of oulton and they were shot for a while. with the ds2500 fitted, not once did i suffer from fade. oulton, donnington, spa. never once did they let me down other than the bias valve failing, not that this was the fault of the uprated pads

You are probably heavy on the brakes. Maybe your front shocks are worn? Maybe you over brake? Maybe you need to change the fluid? Who knows. But the FACT remains that Martin drove his car hard for the entire day with standard calipers and reported no fading.

What happens to you on your secret visits to your secluded moorland roads i have no understanding of and dont really care to be honest.

The post was about Martin, not you.

so this thread isnt about brakes?? martin had a car on std brakes that weighed about 1/2 as much as your left tit. hence the brakes werent doing anywhere near the same work. the cars lighter so they dont have to work as hard to slow/stop. simple physics really.

[schakal]

If a 9 braked that hard the windscreen would probably fall out.

Dont get all emotional now mate , your biceps will fall out :P

[Harry Monk]

If a 9 braked that hard the windscreen would probably fall out.

Dont get all emotional now mate , your biceps will fall out :P

A bit like your cock falls out when the milkman comes round and you answer the door?

[Harry Monk]

Yeah 'no seats'. Martin is floating his body over the seat rails


lol. pedantic fukker ;). of course the rear passengers had a comfy ride sat on the floor :roll:


and yes, the cup cars ran std setup with uprated pads, like myself, of course, theres nothing wrong with the std pads, hence the cups running uprated items.


personally i found i could get fade quite easily with even just a short blast on moorland roads. and on track, 8-9 laps of oulton and they were shot for a while. with the ds2500 fitted, not once did i suffer from fade. oulton, donnington, spa. never once did they let me down other than the bias valve failing, not that this was the fault of the uprated pads

You are probably heavy on the brakes. Maybe your front shocks are worn? Maybe you over brake? Maybe you need to change the fluid? Who knows. But the FACT remains that Martin drove his car hard for the entire day with standard calipers and reported no fading.

What happens to you on your secret visits to your secluded moorland roads i have no understanding of and dont really care to be honest.

The post was about Martin, not you.

so this thread isnt about brakes?? martin had a car on std brakes that weighed about 1/2 as much as your left tit. hence the brakes werent doing anywhere near the same work. the cars lighter so they dont have to work as hard to slow/stop. simple physics really.

If i quote you and you quote me, how long before the post is so long no one cares about what you said?

[schakal]

If a 9 braked that hard the windscreen would probably fall out.

Dont get all emotional now mate , your biceps will fall out :P

A bit like your cock falls out when the milkman comes round and you answer the door?

At least i got something there worthy enough to lay out :wink:

How many more posts can you make before Northingenmeister smashes your back doors in again ??

Tick tock tick tock , run fat boy run :D :D

[Harry Monk]

Ive been banned three times since yesterday anyway, what is once more?

[FATBOY]

does he ever give up???? lol