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fabulicious
15-02-2012, 14:00
I know I know flogging this old horse of a topic again but I need clear accurate advice and guidance.

Which is the easiest and cheapest method for upgrading the brake calipers? Would need to know all the parts required.

Thanks.

diditno
15-02-2012, 14:48
You can ither go for the 172 set up and change hubs, gring a little off the strut part and change hubs, or a k-tec style brake kit. Or the Peugeot 406 route with Bremen 4 pots. All parts are mostly available second hand, it I'm sure you can get a deal from eBay etc

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 15:07
not gonna go the 172 route and i think i will struggle to get anyone to make a bracket for me for the wilwoods..

so it may be the brembo 406 route. do you need longer brake hoses and a bracket for the brembo caliper?

I'm gonna be using my 259mm discs and cl pads.

Jamie Summers
15-02-2012, 15:43
Mark Fish has the brackets for the Wilwoods, I've just put that set up on my Cup racer.

Jamie

diditno
15-02-2012, 15:44
I think the Brembo fits straight on. Around 200 plus pads is an average price. I'd go for braided hoses as well tbh. You may need to shave a little metal from them with 15's, and possible a small spacer. It's Ben done before, may be worth doing a search.

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 16:01
Just to clarify chaps, if I go for the wilwood using my standard 259mm discs I will need a bracket?

I'll look for that thread ditno..but I only want to bolt them on and go :)

diditno
15-02-2012, 16:19
Send paddy16v a message, he ot my old wilwoods on his, I can't remember how they fitted tbh.

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 16:22
Send paddy16v a message, he ot my old wilwoods on his, I can't remember how they fitted tbh.

I think if I have read northy's post on this thread they can fit on standard disks without modification or in need of a bracket.

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8279&highlight=bracket

16v_paddy
15-02-2012, 16:33
The wilwoods fit to a bracket that then goes on the car, all the wilwood calipers are universal & don't just bolt on as they're not made for specific cars.

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 16:37
So I buy "Wilwood Dynalite 120-6805 calipers x2", some new hose's 2" longer, wilwood specific pads and get a bracket from Mark and the jobs a good one?

16v_paddy
15-02-2012, 16:42
Pretty much, couldn't tell you about the part number of the caliper though as I've got no idea :oops: Get some Ferodo Ds2500 pads for them from camskill, you'll find that decent pads for the wilwoods are a shitload cheaper than for std calipers :wink:

16v_paddy
15-02-2012, 16:45
http://camskill.co.uk/m49b0s4052p53513/FERODO_DS2500_BRAKE_PADS_-_FRP502H_%28Ferodo_DS2500_Brake_pads_%29%0A

Daz4567
15-02-2012, 16:50
The smaller wilwood kits are by far and away the best value brake kit for the money. Proven reliable and proven to not fade. No dust seals doesnt seem to be an issue either.

On a road car, i still dont think you can beat the standard set up though. Nice pedal feel, and if you change the pad you wont get any fade.

chip
15-02-2012, 17:37
Why not just grab a set of calipers, fit a larger disk, then make up a bracket to hold the caliper in the right place, thats what Ive done on a few of my cars, far cheaper than buying specific kits and doesnt require any tools beyond a drill a saw and some files etc

chip
15-02-2012, 17:39
Ps

This was last setup I did that way, had some old willwood disks lieing around, and got some tarox calipers secondhand for a fraction of their new cost:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/chip-3door/4m2/oncar.jpg


If you use cosworth disks on a clio and just redrill them to 4*100 they are a great size for going under 15" rims and they sit way further inboard so it gives you loads of space for the calipers.

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 17:56
Believe me the only tools you want to be putting in my hands are rubber ones :lol:
I went to hire a chainsaw the other day to cut some tree's and they refused to hire me one. If I had of gotton hold of it I would have cut all the tree's in my neighbourhood down with it.:shock: I love destruction :twisted:

Seriously though I will look around for something to just bolt on. My standard calipers are fubar anyhow and I couldnt be arsed getting a service kit or buying oe which are quite expensive.

Jamie Summers
15-02-2012, 18:20
So I buy "Wilwood Dynalite 120-6805 calipers x2", some new hose's 2" longer, wilwood specific pads and get a bracket from Mark and the jobs a good one?

Mark's brackets are made to work with bigger Clio 172 discs (I think)

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 18:50
Thanks Jamie. I will give him a shout one of these days.

But here's a table I picked up from our french cousins..

Standard Setup for day to day or weekend driving using Dot 4.

Front disks Valeo => 186208
Front Pads Valeo => 598002

Rear disks Valeo => 197119
Rear Pads Valeo => 598158

Second Setup for the more spirited drivers amongst you using Dot 5.1 and braided hose's.

Front disks Brembo Max => 09.5802.76
Pads Ferodo DS2500 => FCP845

Rear Disks Brembo => 08.5833.10
Rear Pads Ferodo DS2500 => FCP881

And the third for flat out or circuit days, all components refreshed, Goodridge hoses, and "Motul RBF600",

Front disks Bratex Groupe N => TFS.2059
Pads Ferodo DS3000 => 1PFET845

Rear disks Bratex Groupe N => TFS.2061
Rear pads. Ferodo DS3000 => 1PFET558

I suppose you could play with different pads.
Good bad indifferent?

16v_paddy
15-02-2012, 19:36
So I buy "Wilwood Dynalite 120-6805 calipers x2", some new hose's 2" longer, wilwood specific pads and get a bracket from Mark and the jobs a good one?

Mark's brackets are made to work with bigger Clio 172 discs (I think)

:shock: really? I want some :D

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 20:29
So when ordering you need to specify the Disc Width as shown here..
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=8304

As the standard disk on the clio is 20.6mm I take it that is the caliper to go for?
Unsure because in a previous group buy they went for 6805 which is 25.4mm disk width?
I would of thought for ours we would go for a 6806?

stevie_b
15-02-2012, 20:41
You can't get them for the standard setup but if you fit other calipers try to find Pagid RS29 pads in that fitment. They are the best pad I have used and I have stopped 'experimenting' with different pads as a result and just fit those to all my cars now. Those and Castrol SRF fluid and you shouldn't ever fade.

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 20:52
Stevie, you were in on Tony's group buy? You lads went for 25.4mm on the wilwood's. Do you run a standard disk thickness and if so how is the bite/pedal travel?

I'm thinking in terms of not having to upgrade my master cylinder as it's already got a new one.

richy
15-02-2012, 22:42
if your not gonna be doing much/if any trackdays i wouldn't ever bother with the 4pots

mine has the carbon lorraine RC5 pads with HC discs on std calipers and its one of the best set-ups on the clio ive tried, ive used quite a few different set-ups to and these cope perfectly!

arj256
15-02-2012, 22:45
So when ordering you need to specify the Disc Width as shown here..
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=8304

As the standard disk on the clio is 20.6mm I take it that is the caliper to go for?
Unsure because in a previous group buy they went for 6805 which is 25.4mm disk width?
I would of thought for ours we would go for a 6806?

From an old post:


Just to let people know, there are two different types of Wilwood Dynalite brackets floating about.

The one which came with the original group buy. Which uses the normal 120-6805 caliper.
This isnt a true 120-6805 it is in fact a 120-6806 specification.

And the newer 120-6805 which is made for the 120-6805.

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33064&highlight=arj256+wilwood

Trying to cast my mind back, when I came to replace my Wilwoods, they where from the original group buy from Mark Ritchspeed.
The caliper 120-6805 was peculiar as it had one spacer between the caliper half's.
When I ordered a new one 120-6805 it had two spacers between the caliper half which would make sense for the larger disc specification.
I'm not certain, but im pretty sure I had to send the calipers back and get some 120-6806 calipers which fitted fine with that bracket.

In my circumstance the pistons would have to be pumped out quite abit with the new 120-6805 to make contact with the standard sized discs.
It would almost seem that the specification was changed through the calipers life?
Reading through the old posts it would seem 120-6806 are the ones to go for.
I don't know if Wilwood offer more pad material on there pads now?
If you could find some, then that would be worth looking into. As i used to find that they had half the material compared to OEM pads and half the life..

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 22:50
Those CL's not spoiling your alloys under heavy use?

Another problem with using race spec pads daily is if you need to brake suddenly when they are cold? They are not so good.

With 4 pots it's easy enough to swap pads for general daily use or for track day use than with standard calipers.

For £350 quid I'm still considering even though I was in yours Richie.:-)

So no-one has any info on disk width choice or is it just a spacer in the caliper?

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 22:54
Thanks for the info arj. you got in there while I was replying to Ritchie:-)

will look over that post but yes I would of thought the 6806 would have been correct also without having to open the caliper to remove or add the spacer.

richy
15-02-2012, 22:56
nah, just give the wheels a quick clean before leaving the car for days etc dust wise there better then the wilwood pads i had,

tbh there not bad at all from cold, give a really good cold bite and brilliant when hot! actually a lot better then the pads i used in 4pots! they took ages to heat up and get bite!

fabulicious
15-02-2012, 23:10
I concur that the CL are very very good. On my sighter in donni last year i scared the living daylights out of the guy in the passenger seat :lol:
He was saying brake brake!! And i said dont worry my brakes are good :D

They never gave up and combined with the 888's the best i've experienced thusfar. But the willy deserves some street jewels.

You selling your hybrid then? hhmm

richy
15-02-2012, 23:28
sell/break whichever lol

either way it needs to go, prefer RWD these days!

stevie_b
16-02-2012, 09:53
Stevie, you were in on Tony's group buy? You lads went for 25.4mm on the wilwood's. Do you run a standard disk thickness and if so how is the bite/pedal travel?

I'm thinking in terms of not having to upgrade my master cylinder as it's already got a new one.

Yes, I was in on Tony's group buy. I know I have kept the caliper box somewhere in the spares 'dump' in the garage but I can go up there and dig it out and give you the exact Wilwood product code/serial numbers from the box, if that is any help?

I use standard thickness discs. Also using the standard master cylinder. I do have an in-car brake bias adjuster plumbed in but I don't think that would affect anything and feel and pedal travel are fine.

16v_paddy
16-02-2012, 10:03
You do sacrifice a bot of pedal feel and have a bit more travel, but I've found that with decent pads that have good initial bite you hardly notice the travel & feel & pay more attention to how well the brakes really work when on track.

My wilwoods took a full hour of hammering at Castle Combe with cheap crappy & old halfords fluid & shitty EBC yellowstuff pads before they faded & boiled :P So with decent fluid & pads you wont have any problems

fabulicious
16-02-2012, 10:07
That would be ace if you can find the exact part number.
I am going to try and find someone to do the brackets, perhaps send Mark Fish a pm and see if he can do some up.
Maybe organise another group buy?
For me to renew my existing calipers and carrier's and hose's it's gonna work out at almost the same price as the 4 pots anyhow.

Jamie Summers
16-02-2012, 11:08
Mark Fish has put a Wilwood set up on my Cup Car, with Brembo Max discs, race spec Mintex F4R pads (special order) and AP600 fluid. I'm afraid I don't have the full spec of the calipers or discs, but I'm sure Mark will be able to confirm if you contact him.

This wasn't a cheap set up .... Calipers, discs, pads, brackets, braided hoses, fluid and bolts came to just shy of £1k inc VAT.

I have not yet experienced the performance in the dry, but it was still pretty awesome at a wet Brands Hatch. Not a hint of fade all day long with a nice firm pedal feel. I have no doubt these will be fantastic in the dry.

This set-up is massivley over-braked for a road car - I really would only recomend it for a track or race car, and only in conjunction with sticky tyres. In a road car you will just lock up everywhere !

Jamie

stevie_b
16-02-2012, 12:35
That would be ace if you can find the exact part number.

No problem, I'll have a hunt around tonight - I'm fairly sure that I know where I have kept it.


This set-up is massivley over-braked for a road car - I really would only recomend it for a track or race car, and only in conjunction with sticky tyres. In a road car you will just lock up everywhere !


Fab, I'd watch out for compound choice if a car is used mainly on the road as some do take a while to get up to temp and start working properly, which isn't ideal on a car you are using daily on the road. Other than that I've not found any issue on the road with a car being 'over-braked' as long as you have a progressive pedal so you can meter out the correct force - I have 6-pot APs on 330mm discs and 6-pot Brembos on 350mm disc setups in use on other cars and never have any problem with them locking up when in use on the road. You might find you are installing a brake system that is over-specced compared to what you will be using it for but I can't see any real problems that would cause - other than some unnecessary expense perhaps. It might even work out cheaper in the long run as I've worked my way up on various setups and the cost of replacing pads and discs that have got destroyed along the way I probably should have shelled out for the 6-pot AP calipers in the first place as I've not had any problems since with premature failure of discs or pads on that setup, so they are cheaper to run once the initial purchase price has been sunk.

Daz4567
16-02-2012, 12:41
Tarox do a nice bolt on kit, all bit included, that fits under 15 inch wheels.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t24/willyturbo/SNV31294.jpg

These alcons are probably overkill on a road car

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/Cliorod/untitled.jpg

fabulicious
16-02-2012, 13:00
Fantastic feedback from everyone. It's really great to see we can all have a good natter on a subject. :D We have grown up!

Stevie you read my mind on that one. I would I'm sure go for a scaled down version of say Jamie's cup setup and opt for a more daily use pad and standard size disks with the option of going for a more hardcore pad if the need arises.

Daz4567
16-02-2012, 13:20
Martin at Cadwell (i think) on standard brakes. No fade reported after doing this all day. Uprated pads though. Similar set up to cup racers

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/Tea_Drinker/MartinCadwell.jpg

Daz4567
16-02-2012, 13:24
This is my set up at present, not something i would buy, but i inherited it from the previous owner.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa342/Tea_Drinker/100_3455.jpg

2 live
16-02-2012, 18:21
why do you want to upgrade the calipers mate....sorry if already discussed.... if the cars for daily use, and occasional track day, you cant go far wrong with a good working std setup with ds 2500s. imho. iv driven 4 potted cars, wilwood and hi spec, and they just didnt have the same feel. iv chased 4 potted cars on track, and been able to outbrake them, maybe thats just the goon with the wheel in his hand tho ;), and can honestly say.....iv NEVER had fade from this setup. and it works perfectly well day to day too. not overly harsh on dust either. does have a tendancy to eat discs tho.

fabulicious
16-02-2012, 19:03
not at all mate..feedback is important from everyone.

Firstly, ive had my mind set on them for age's. Be it for looks or performance it doesn't matter..it's an itch I gotta scratch.

At the moment it does not get used at all but if it does it will more than likely be some track and mountain road use. Trust me even though the williams is light I could show you roads that would eat the brakes off of any car.

As you say there are a variety of options that are perfectly adequate and certainly easier on the pocket but I am in need of caliper's, new pads, hose's and carriers and I may aswell throw in a set of disks whilst I'm at, and add that tidy sum up and I'm not far off the 4 pots.

So looking forward i'm thinking, satisfy my itch and have a decent set of calipers that should last the lifetime of the car.
I've never been happy with the brakes on the Williams, perhaps thats due in part to worn parts but hey ho I've made my mind up. :thumbsup:

16v_paddy
16-02-2012, 21:04
why do you want to upgrade the calipers mate....sorry if already discussed.... if the cars for daily use, and occasional track day, you cant go far wrong with a good working std setup with ds 2500s. imho. iv driven 4 potted cars, wilwood and hi spec, and they just didnt have the same feel. iv chased 4 potted cars on track, and been able to outbrake them, maybe thats just the goon with the wheel in his hand tho ;), and can honestly say.....iv NEVER had fade from this setup. and it works perfectly well day to day too. not overly harsh on dust either. does have a tendancy to eat discs tho.

Tbh my wilwoods are a bit overkill on track, well I say that because at Bedford sideways danny was my instructor & was saying to me "get the fcuk off those brakes!! you don't need to use them that much you fcuking pussy!" quite a lot and "don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift don't lift & if you touch that brake pedal I will fcuking punch you!!" a few times :oops:
Then when we had a civilised chat in the pits :lol: explained that my brakes were too good & that I didn't need to use them anywhere near as much as I do, suffice to say I eased off on the middle pedal, grew some bigger balls & some talent and went faster & faster as the day progressed[/u]

stevie_b
16-02-2012, 21:12
Fab, I managed to find the boxes. The part number on them is 120-6805 and above the barcode it gives the longer description of CALIPER, FDL, 1.38, 1.00 RTR, BLK.

Here is a pic of them

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/ledas.jpg

To follow up what a couple of other posters said about the standard setup, in fairness I never had any problem with standard calipers when I was competing with the car in sprints and hillclimbs and never had any fade. At the same time I was improving the performance of the car the group buy from Tony came along so I thought 'why not' and upgrade the braking too, rather than any particular weakness I noticed. The same cannot be said about some of my other cars, but the Clio's brakes were actually more than adequate in that regard! I do think the ease with which you can swap pads with the Wilwoods is a good advantage if you do track the car a lot, but I agree that is a pretty minor point.

tutuur
16-02-2012, 21:50
Wow! That coilovers look pretty fancy too!
Shouldn't the discs be changed side to side though?
Now you're "trowing" your heat and dust to the inside..

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 10:13
Morning!
Been doing the math on this. From where I am sitting it looks as follows;

Standard Part Replacements from Renault

Calipers 75 each + vat = £181
Disks 30 each + vat = £73
Pads 30 + vat = £40
Hoses 20 + vat = £25
Carriers 65 each + vat = £160

Total £484 excluding delivery

Wilwoood 4 pot system (web shop prices)

£99.50 each caliper + vat = £240
Pads 27 + vat = £33
Disks * 2 = £75
Braided Hoses = £40
Bracket bolts etc = £50

Total = £450 Excluding Delivery

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 11:20
Here's something else that caught my attention.

If you look at the specs of the 120-6805 the min rotor/disk width is 23.8 mm and max is 26mm.

So if your using a standard say brembo 259mm disk the dimensions do not really add up.
They measure 20.6mm (new) and min 17.7. :?:

Then if you compare a Brembo 172/182 disk/rotor 280mm,
they come in new at 24mm and are given a min of 21.8.

So correct me if I'm wrong here but it seems if you have the 6805, then a 280mm disk is the best fit.

Jamie Summers
17-02-2012, 13:04
Wow,
I'd love to see where you got those prices from ......... !

Jamie

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 13:14
The reno or the wilwood?

Jamie Summers
17-02-2012, 14:18
Wilwood. As you'll see from an earlier post, my Wilwood set up was waaaaay more !

Jamie

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 14:29
Well in fairness Jamie there is a big difference between going to a specialist or doing the job yourself at home. For peace of mind I would take the car to a mechanic and make sure it's done correctly, if I had the option. God love em they need to make a living also!
So no I'm not going to get into price's here but if you search hard enough you will find the wilwood's in and around the price shown above. and if you have a relative in the US you could knock another 100 off them prices. :wink:

Daz4567
17-02-2012, 15:21
Wilwood. As you'll see from an earlier post, my Wilwood set up was waaaaay more !

Jamie

That's because you went to a 'motorsport specialist'. They will just pluck figures out of the air.

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 15:30
That's because you went to a 'motorsport specialist'. They will just pluck figures out of the air.

I was wandering how long it would take for someone to write rubbish. You have obviously no idea what it means to run a business and employ staff do you?

stevie_b
17-02-2012, 16:21
Shouldn't the discs be changed side to side though?
Now you're "trowing" your heat and dust to the inside..

Thanks for bringing that to my attention but the discs are on the correct sides already. They are 'handed' but what matters is that they are in the correct direction for the vanes inside the vented disc to move the air in the correct direction to maximise cooling. The grooves on the outside are of minor consequence and I have seen those point in different directions depending on the manufacturer.

Fab, those prices sound around the correct ballpark. Jamie's price obviously included the fitting too. My Wilwoods, pads, brackets and braided lines were £350 inc. VAT, and if you factor in £75 for discs and £25 for a litre of SRF fluid then you are bang around the £450 figure you were thinking.

Jamie Summers
17-02-2012, 18:12
No, that's my point, the price I quoted was parts alone !!!!

I accept that I've got race spec pads which were expensive, and the brackets were expensive, but I was charged £330+VAT for the calipers alone. Either I have slightly different spec calipers (eg billet vs forged), or someone's put a big mark-up on them !

No arguments on the price of the ancilary stuff...........

16v_paddy
17-02-2012, 20:49
If being new isn't important, PM clio-girl, she's selling her Hi-Spec 4 pots with 172 discs & carbone lorraine pads :wink:

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 20:55
No, that's my point, the price I quoted was parts alone !!!!

I accept that I've got race spec pads which were expensive, and the brackets were expensive, but I was charged £330+VAT for the calipers alone. Either I have slightly different spec calipers (eg billet vs forged), or someone's put a big mark-up on them !

No arguments on the price of the ancilary stuff...........

Did you get an invoice/receipt? Does it show the part number?

Jamie markup is one thing..distribution channels are another. It's not uncommon to find huge price margins between various resellers. If they are down at the lower end of the food chain as such, their discount's are going to be much less and price's higher. As far as I can tell rally design seem to be the only distributors in the UK for the wilwoods? Therefore they can afford to bang them out at dirt cheap prices, hence where I got the price from this morning.

Anyways get the part number on the calipers and let us know before anyone jumps to any more conclusions.

16v_paddy
17-02-2012, 21:05
Well I've just seen on ebay, 1 new dynalite caliper for £146 :shock: I've never seen them cheaper than what rally design sell them for

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 21:30
If being new isn't important, PM clio-girl, she's selling her Hi-Spec 4 pots with 172 discs & carbone lorraine pads :wink:

Is that on 172 hubs?

16v_paddy
17-02-2012, 22:06
Nope, standard valver hubs. iirc it's only got 172 discs as she was in desperate need of discs in time for a track day & couldn't get hold of 285mm discs so fitted some 172 jobbers

Daz4567
17-02-2012, 22:13
No, that's my point, the price I quoted was parts alone !!!!

I accept that I've got race spec pads which were expensive, and the brackets were expensive, but I was charged £330+VAT for the calipers alone. Either I have slightly different spec calipers (eg billet vs forged), or someone's put a big mark-up on them !

No arguments on the price of the ancilary stuff...........

Did you get an invoice/receipt? Does it show the part number?

Jamie markup is one thing..distribution channels are another. It's not uncommon to find huge price margins between various resellers. If they are down at the lower end of the food chain as such, their discount's are going to be much less and price's higher. As far as I can tell rally design seem to be the only distributors in the UK for the wilwoods? Therefore they can afford to bang them out at dirt cheap prices, hence where I got the price from this morning.

Anyways get the part number on the calipers and let us know before anyone jumps to any more conclusions.

This is total bollocks. You can buy the calipers cheaper than that retail from rally design. How can a tuning company not get them cheaper wholesale?

These companies 'pluck figures out of the air' just like i said. They count on the buyer not knowing the actual cost of the parts. Most make huge margins on what amounts to immoral behavior.

Why do you think so many people become pissed off with these places so quick? They don't care, always another sucker around the corner (no offense to the buyer in this case).

Daz4567
17-02-2012, 22:17
Oh and just to add, many of these places have to charge so much because there hobby is building ludicrously expensive project cars for show to amaze the next lot of punters or for use as competition cars.

Simon Norris typifies many of them. The punters are just cash cows to them.

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 22:37
[quote=Jamie Summers]No, that's my point, the price I quoted was parts alone !!!!

I accept that I've got race spec pads which were expensive, and the brackets were expensive, but I was charged £330+VAT for the calipers alone. Either I have slightly different spec calipers (eg billet vs forged), or someone's put a big mark-up on them !

No arguments on the price of the ancilary stuff...........

Did you get an invoice/receipt? Does it show the part number?

Jamie markup is one thing..distribution channels are another. It's not uncommon to find huge price margins between various resellers. If they are down at the lower end of the food chain as such, their discount's are going to be much less and price's higher. As far as I can tell rally design seem to be the only distributors in the UK for the wilwoods? Therefore they can afford to bang them out at dirt cheap prices, hence where I got the price from this morning.

Anyways get the part number on the calipers and let us know before anyone jumps to any more conclusions.


This is total bollocks. You can buy the calipers cheaper than that retail from rally design. How can a tuning company not get them cheaper wholesale?

As I said it's about channel's, distribution channels to be more precise. It does not matter if a formula 1 team goes to buy these caliper's or not.
At the end of the day an agreement is in place (often legal) with the manufacturer, in this case Wilwood and Rally Design, that rally Design have exclusive distribution/wholesale rights on the Wilwood caliper in the UK. Nobody else is allowed to distribute these calipers whilst that agreement is in place.
That does not mean Rally Design cannot operate under a pseudonym and bang them out on ebay or other places. This is so very often done and even tuning companies get squeezed out! I know i've been there in the IT world.


These companies 'pluck figures out of the air' just like i said. They count on the buyer not knowing the actual cost of the parts. Most make huge margins on what amounts to immoral behavior.

So you consider it wrong that a business turns a profit?
The buyer/consumer has more rights than a business nowadays. In general prices are displayed and or quoted before an exchange of goods or service's rendered. And yeah whilst there are suckers out there it's the buyer that needs to be aware. I take it in the UK you have consumer laws which allow you a refund if you not satisfied?

Thats business. Politics are no better.

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 22:47
And lets talk about immoral behaviour, and not in a business sense but in a human being light.
You do realise that very likely the computer you are typing your messages on or iphone for that matter come from a manufacturer which exploits workers, and specifically in Taiwan, where the suicide rate in their factories has gone through the roof. And your worried about money?

fabulicious
17-02-2012, 23:21
Just so you know daz i'm not sticking up for anyone. I've given up looking at the world in a negative way. It only leads to depression. We are here for a good time not a long time right?

Anyways incase you havent noticed we dont have many mk1 specialists to rely on these days so i reckon we keep them sweet.
Wait till Jamie gets back with the caliper model number and form your conclusion from that. 8)

Daz4567
18-02-2012, 01:32
Keep them sweet?

The problem with 90% of all car forums, is that there is always a little clique of maggots trying to brown nose some tuning jockey.

fabulicious
18-02-2012, 11:00
Thats not happening here. Everyone gets a chance to represent themselves if they so wish.
What does happen a lot is people tend to jump to conclusions or make assumptions when their knowledge is incomplete.

Daz4567
18-02-2012, 13:25
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

Bob Jones
18-02-2012, 13:27
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

Where did you get a kit for 450 pounds fitted? Link?

Daz4567
18-02-2012, 13:33
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

Where did you get a kit for 450 pounds fitted? Link?

From Yozzasport. Although Fred did cross thread my rear brake caliper mount, spill brake fluid over the front arch and dent the roof. Oh an the brake pads were the wrong ones. The calipers and brakets were nice though.

Bob Jones
18-02-2012, 13:34
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

Where did you get a kit for 450 pounds fitted? Link?

From Yozzasport. Although Fred did cross thread my rear brake caliper mount, spill brake fluid over the front arch and dent the roof. Oh an the brake pads were the wrong ones. The calipers and brakets were nice though.

Any idea if he still does the kits?

samfish
19-02-2012, 19:04
Hi there,
Just a response to the above -
The Willwoods used on Jamies car are more like £150++ Plus VAT + Carriage - and Rally design do not offer us any discount over the general public.

So very little (if any) mark-up is made, as you can see.

When I bought Mintex F4R for my racing Mk1 Golf they cost me £140+VAT.
Jamie's where custom made for the Willwoods - the first time the Mintex material was available for that calliper.....anywhere.
The F4R pad is absolutely amazing, and worth every penny when competing on track - far superior than the DS3000. I have tried both back to back.

In defence, we are not a tuning 'jockey' that use customers as 'cash cows' to fund a 'hobby'.
Our reputation and experience is based on knowledge gained from decades preparing championship winning race cars - we offer the same level of preparation and service to every customer - road/service or race/prep. Reliability and results are a testament to this.

Consumer is king, so you can choose to go wherever you wish. But consumers can also be misguided by forum discussions....
Regards
Sam

samfish
19-02-2012, 19:09
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

How much did the dent in the roof and brake fluid damage cost to repair ontop?
Sorry, couldn't resist :oops:

16v_paddy
19-02-2012, 19:16
Sam, can you shed any light on the brackets you supplied for Jamie's wilwoods, are they for standard 259mm or the 280mm 172 discs?

fabulicious
19-02-2012, 19:19
Hi Sam.
there was no need to reply. Most of us live in the real world and understand.

The problem you will find today is that the internet can be both a blessing and a curse for business's be them large or small.
Good in a way you can reach out to your customer and or fan base.
Bad in that you get a lot of wet behind the ears, know it all's that think they know better because they see internet price's and think, "ha look at them prices. I can do that cheaper and better than yer man".

My biggest fear is whilst the internet provides for some good healthy competition, it can also be detrimental to the professional and established business's that provide so much to a community.
You need to be careful of that.

All the best,

Fabio.

samfish
19-02-2012, 20:00
Sam, can you shed any light on the brackets you supplied for Jamie's wilwoods, are they for standard 259mm or the 280mm 172 discs?


Sam, can you shed any light on the brackets you supplied for Jamie's wilwoods, are they for standard 259mm or the 280mm 172 discs?

Hi there,
I was not involved with the conversion, so I will find out and let you know the details/spec.

Thanks Fabio. Much appreciated.
My Dad went on a forum for the first time recently, and we have never had any internet presence until now, maybe it is for the best. Like you say, it can work for business sometimes, and finish others.
He has always avoided the temptation to post and get involved, relying on word of mouth and reputation.
On the other hand, I spend far too long on various forum's and need to get out more!

16v_paddy
19-02-2012, 20:17
On the other hand, I spend far too long on various forum's and need to get out more!

AMEN to that brother :lol:

Jamie Summers
20-02-2012, 13:33
Sam, can you shed any light on the brackets you supplied for Jamie's wilwoods, are they for standard 259mm or the 280mm 172 discs?


Sam, can you shed any light on the brackets you supplied for Jamie's wilwoods, are they for standard 259mm or the 280mm 172 discs?

Hi there,
I was not involved with the conversion, so I will find out and let you know the details/spec.

Thanks Fabio. Much appreciated.
My Dad went on a forum for the first time recently, and we have never had any internet presence until now, maybe it is for the best. Like you say, it can work for business sometimes, and finish others.
He has always avoided the temptation to post and get involved, relying on word of mouth and reputation.
On the other hand, I spend far too long on various forum's and need to get out more!

Sam,
Thanks for getting involved here - certainly wasn't trying to trash any reputations here - just genuinely interested how the spec on my brakes differs from what others have been putting on their cars. I am sure I must have slightly different calipers but I don't know what the difference is. I know there are several "custom" bits and pieces and I'm not questioning the cost of any other other parts in the set up, all of which seem to be perfectly sensible.

cheers,

Jamie

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 13:49
£1000 for only the parts to a Wilwood brake kit that i payed 450 pound fitted?

What other facts do i need?

How much did the dent in the roof and brake fluid damage cost to repair ontop?
Sorry, couldn't resist :oops:

Nothing, because i didnt pay a penny for the brakes. I sent a bill to Yozzasport for £450 and by simple accounting deducted the receipts from the debt to create a balance of £0. Fred sent me a new rear caliper bracket free of charge, which was kind of him as he didnt have to.

Im not some little kid that shits himself when he goes to pick up his property. If the work is not to scratch it gets done again. If i am not happy i drive my car away.

If someone tried to charge me £1000 for wilwood calipers i would probably just laugh in their face.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 13:51
You can buy an off the shelf Tarox 6 pot kit for less than £1000 iirc.

Much better quality that wilwoods.

Nick hill used to do a tarox 6 pot kit for about 850 fitted i think.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 13:56
Yep Prima racing do it.

KMPE0474 Tar-Ox 284mm 6 Pot Brake Kit Clio 1.8 16v £795.00

http://www.primaracing.com/PriceList.aspx

Jamie Summers
20-02-2012, 14:07
Before anyone gets too over-excited, I need to use 15" wheels, so the Wilwoods were the best solution for me. They are way more brake than a 900kg car will ever need, and we will be doing 45 minute races. I can't see any point in going for bigger unless running 300bhp+ !

Can I gently suggest a bit of perspective might be necessary here, there are some pretty unfriendly and unnecessary accusations being thrown around ........

Jamie

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:26
Before anyone gets too over-excited, I need to use 15" wheels, so the Wilwoods were the best solution for me. They are way more brake than a 900kg car will ever need, and we will be doing 45 minute races. I can't see any point in going for bigger unless running 300bhp+ !

Can I gently suggest a bit of perspective might be necessary here, there are some pretty unfriendly and unnecessary accusations being thrown around ........

Jamie

Tarox 6 pots fit under 15 inch williams wheels if you go for the correct disc fitment.

No unfriendliness on my part, I just happen to think £1000 for the willwood kits is laughable. If a company has the gall to charge these prices, can they really not expect people to laugh?

I know most people on here are politically correct and programmed to follow the herd, but to stick up for this kind of price extortion is just a joke.

I have no idea how good fish is at motorsport, and i dont care because i would never go to pay another person for things i can do myself, but this particular product is way overpriced, and should be highlighted as such so others are aware,.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:33
Anyone who doesn't think £1000 for part alone is expensive just do an ebay search for 'wilwood brake kit' and look at how much cheaper the whole kits are on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=wilwood+brake+kit&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:35
Add in a set of hoses and you are good to go for less than 635 notes:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-205-1-9-GTI-Wilwood-Brake-Kit-Midilite-4Pot-285-/230640548738?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item35b33f7b82

Give an idea of about the price the parts SHOULD be

samfish
20-02-2012, 14:41
Thanks jamie.
No worries at all. A customer needs to know what they have paid for.

1000 is not just for the willwoods grizly, as i am sure you can guess. What pads ome with the other kits, do you know? There is a big difference between a 35 pagid and a 230 pagid....
How well do those kits fit, do you know?
What kind of back up service do you get wth them?
If they fail under warranty, who repairs and refits?
Hiw good are the brackets? What grade aluminium are they machined from?
Etc etc.

There is more to a package than the price. Especially when racing.

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 14:43
So you can buy and fit the kit yourself at home and save a few bob. Good on you Mate. :thumbsup:

The price's quoted by Sam seem to indicate that they charge £150 plus vat + carraige for the calipers.
Whatever about the other components the rest of the charge is for professional services. Do you get that part? Professional services. People who are highly skilled or trained to carry out their duty.
The same way Renault will charge you very likely the same price for fitting the OE kit. Why? Again because it's a professional service. They can charge whatever they like. You dont like it dont buy it!

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:48
Thanks jamie.
No worries at all. A customer needs to know what they have paid for.

1000 is not just for the willwoods grizly, as i am sure you can guess. What pads ome with the other kits, do you know? There is a big difference between a 35 pagid and a 230 pagid....
How well do those kits fit, do you know?
What kind of back up service do you get wth them?
If they fail under warranty, who repairs and refits?
Hiw good are the brackets? What grade aluminium are they machined from?
Etc etc.

There is more to a package than the price. Especially when racing.

Warranty is irrelevant as under the UK trade descriptions act you can return any product that breaks or is faulty at any time within a period of what would be considered normal life for that item. I have returned a 3 year old blender and a 5 year old fridge and got a refund because these items are expected to last longer than this time. Warranty is just a con given by manufacturers. The law covers you. So lets dismiss that argument shall we?

There is no secret magic machine that machines aluminum brackets and plates them in gold. I have friends who work in engineering, i know how much this stuff costs and how long this shit takes to do. Why can they make me up a set of brackets for 25 quid and motorsport companies (using the same engineering companies, i know because they tell me) then sell the same brackets on for 100 quid. £75 quid for no work and the cost of placing an order? Really?

Pads vary in price true,. but they don't explain the £400 difference between one kit and another. Brake hoses are custom made to custom length with custom fittings at places like demon tweeks for reasonable money. Even demon tweeks prices cannot explain the price difference.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:50
So you can buy and fit the kit yourself at home and save a few bob. Good on you Mate. :thumbsup:

The price's quoted by Sam seem to indicate that they charge £150 plus vat + carraige for the calipers.
Whatever about the other components the rest of the charge is for professional services. Do you get that part? Professional services. People who are highly skilled or trained to carry out their duty.
The same way Renault will charge you very likely the same price for fitting the OE kit. Why? Again because it's a professional service. They can charge whatever they like. You dont like it dont buy it!

You want some brakes, why not go to Fish motorsport then if they are such good value?

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 14:55
And just to reiterate my last post.

You spend long enough on this forum and just watch the amount of people who have just bought a Williams or other with previous bodge jobs done on them, and the amount of roadside mechanics that end up having to take the car to a skilled or trained mechanic to get the job done correctly.

No wonder they are being broken and crashed like nobody's business because people being misled into believing they can do it better.:roll:

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 14:59
Funny because i find exactly the opposite.

Every time i have taken my car for repairs it has come back in a worse state than when i sent it. I find the real bodgers are the garages / motorsport garages that claim to know their stuff and are just chancers fleecing the sheep.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:00
And just to reiterate my last post.

You spend long enough on this forum and just watch the amount of people who have just bought a Williams or other with previous bodge jobs done on them, and the amount of roadside mechanics that end up having to take the car to a skilled or trained mechanic to get the job done correctly.

No wonder they are being broken and crashed like nobody's business because people being misled into believing they can do it better.:roll:

So would you get that wilwood kit from fish motorsport, and if not why not?

Jamie Summers
20-02-2012, 15:11
Funny because i find exactly the opposite.

Every time i have taken my car for repairs it has come back in a worse state than when i sent it. I find the real bodgers are the garages / motorsport garages that claim to know their stuff and are just chancers fleecing the sheep.

Look mate whatever your beef is you're not really adding much to the debate. Some people choose to build up a relationship with a garage trusting that the experience and knowledge they are paying for is worth something. Sometimes that trust is let down - guess what ? Sh1t happens..... more often than not they do a good job and both sides benefit.
Other people such as you choose to do their own thing. Good luck to you. Where you let yourself down is in trashing anyone who chooses not to follow your lead.
This was a genuinely interesting thread about the various options for improving brakes and has disolved into a slightly pathetic argument. Well done you !

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:18
Funny because i find exactly the opposite.

Every time i have taken my car for repairs it has come back in a worse state than when i sent it. I find the real bodgers are the garages / motorsport garages that claim to know their stuff and are just chancers fleecing the sheep.

Look mate whatever your beef is you're not really adding much to the debate. Some people choose to build up a relationship with a garage trusting that the experience and knowledge they are paying for is worth something. Sometimes that trust is let down - guess what ? Sh1t happens..... more often than not they do a good job and both sides benefit.
Other people such as you choose to do their own thing. Good luck to you. Where you let yourself down is in trashing anyone who chooses not to follow your lead.
This was a genuinely interesting thread about the various options for improving brakes and has disolved into a slightly pathetic argument. Well done you !

I am adding to the debate, you just don't like what i say because you don't agree with it. Don't confuse the two.

I have added numerous links (more than anyone else) showing a variety of brake kits for the opening poster and given more useful advice on this thread regarding the original question than any other poster.

Stop being a baby and grow up. If you don't like my opinion ignore it and read the ones you do like.

My posts are not really the problem, your self censoring of information that doesn't sit well within your current (limited) belief system is what you don't like.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:21
And who was the last person on this thread to link to a brake kit for the opening poster? Oh that will be me. Where are everyone else's links?

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:24
And if you are interested i have a set of hubs that you can fit the ford racing puma alcon calipers directly to, for sale.

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 15:25
I have considered Fish Motorsport for the parts because Jamie in a previous post suggested I contact them because they would have the bracket required. I do not see anyone else supplying the bracket for the wilwood kit on the MK1?? Remember I want to use my existing hubs and 15" wheels.
yes many other's have offered various different option's but I do not have a wealth of mechanical experience and being the brakes I do not want to fook around with them.

Sure if I had the budget, I would drive over there, negotiate a fitting price and get the job done. But I am based across the water.

But I think we are all missing the point here.
Jamie chose to go to Fish Motorsport. Nobody on here twisted his arm and told him to go there.
But he did get freaked out when he saw the webshop price's and then to add fuel onto the fire other posters came on and inflamed his bemused realisation that the parts can be found cheaper.

Since then I've been trying to point out that the internet is not a retail store or garage that has overheads and staff to pay. It also does not provide professional fitting services. Sure it has numerous forums like this one, where people can offer advice or suggest remedies but we never take into account that perhaps the end user is not mechanically minded and would rather enlist the service's of a mechanic.
simple really. dont know what all the bother is about.

Now can we get back to discussing 4 pots?

Do I need to update the servo or not?
8)

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:27
I know where you can get the bracket for the original standard disc brake kits. I also have a bracket from my larger kit that could be copied, if a deposit was left for it.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:29
I have considered Fish Motorsport for the parts because Jamie in a previous post suggested I contact them because they would have the bracket required. I do not see anyone else supplying the bracket for the wilwood kit on the MK1?? Remember I want to use my existing hubs and 15" wheels.
yes many other's have offered various different option's but I do not have a wealth of mechanical experience and being the brakes I do not want to fook around with them.

Sure if I had the budget, I would drive over there, negotiate a fitting price and get the job done. But I am based across the water.

But I think we are all missing the point here.
Jamie chose to go to Fish Motorsport. Nobody on here twisted his arm and told him to go there.
But he did get freaked out when he saw the webshop price's and then to add fuel onto the fire other posters came on and inflamed his bemused realisation that the parts can be found cheaper.

Since then I've been trying to point out that the internet is not a retail store or garage that has overheads and staff to pay. It also does not provide professional fitting services. Sure it has numerous forums like this one, where people can offer advice or suggest remedies but we never take into account that perhaps the end user is not mechanically minded and would rather enlist the service's of a mechanic.
simple really. dont know what all the bother is about.

Now can we get back to discussing 4 pots?

Do I need to update the servo or not?
8)

Ok how about this then. I will fit any kit anyone buys for 50 quid. Drive to my house and i will fit the kit.

See is fishy motorsports can match that offer.

samfish
20-02-2012, 15:30
I am sorry to be rude, but you really have no idea at all how a company works.
Yes everything is covered by warranty, but when you supply a part, the supplier has to deal with it. So remove it from customers car, send to manufacturer and refit... At their cost.
And if one of the calliper jbrackets fail, the supplier is liable. I doubt your pal who makes them fror 25 pounds will accept liability. I know how much a mill costs too, but do yoy know how much the roof over it costs? I could list endless overheads for our business, but i am sure everyone else is well aware. And somewhere in there we desreve a profit, dont we?

How much profit do you expect a comoany to earn grizly? Whatever you say, i am sure we earn less, i can show you the accounts if you like - which will make you happy it seems.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:30
You need to match the brake cylinder to the 4 pots yes.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 15:35
I am sorry to be rude, but you really have no idea at all how a company works.
Yes everything is covered by warranty, but when you supply a part, the supplier has to deal with it. So remove it from customers car, send to manufacturer and refit... At their cost.
And if one of the calliper jbrackets fail, the supplier is liable. I doubt your pal who makes them fror 25 pounds will accept liability. I know how much a mill costs too, but do yoy know how much the roof over it costs? I could list endless overheads for our business, but i am sure everyone else is well aware. And somewhere in there we desreve a profit, dont we?

How much profit do you expect a comoany to earn grizly? Whatever you say, i am sure we earn less, i can show you the accounts if you like - which will make you happy it seems.

The contract of sale is between the garage and the individual. You can return any item that is faulty to the garage and they must remove it and replace it at their cost. They cannot charge for this service. They have to recoup their costs from the manufacturer.

If my friend sells me a caliper bracket that he made on his own time as a personal sale, no it is not covered, but he would just make me another one for a beer. That's how friendships work. If i was invoiced by his company i would have the right to return the faulty item.

These little engineering companies are the same places that motorsport manufacturers get their kit from, so there is not reason to assume it is inferior. Unless you are saying your kit is inferior?

samfish
20-02-2012, 15:52
I have made my point. I dont need to say anymore.

Jamie Summers
20-02-2012, 16:23
I have considered Fish Motorsport for the parts because Jamie in a previous post suggested I contact them because they would have the bracket required. I do not see anyone else supplying the bracket for the wilwood kit on the MK1?? Remember I want to use my existing hubs and 15" wheels.
yes many other's have offered various different option's but I do not have a wealth of mechanical experience and being the brakes I do not want to fook around with them.

Sure if I had the budget, I would drive over there, negotiate a fitting price and get the job done. But I am based across the water.

But I think we are all missing the point here.
Jamie chose to go to Fish Motorsport. Nobody on here twisted his arm and told him to go there.
But he did get freaked out when he saw the webshop price's and then to add fuel onto the fire other posters came on and inflamed his bemused realisation that the parts can be found cheaper.

Since then I've been trying to point out that the internet is not a retail store or garage that has overheads and staff to pay. It also does not provide professional fitting services. Sure it has numerous forums like this one, where people can offer advice or suggest remedies but we never take into account that perhaps the end user is not mechanically minded and would rather enlist the service's of a mechanic.
simple really. dont know what all the bother is about.

Now can we get back to discussing 4 pots?

Do I need to update the servo or not?
8)

Yes, you've got it spot on here. I merely mentioned Mark Fish because I know he can supply the brackets and have experience of the product.

Yes, I was surprised by the apparent difference in price between what I have paid, and what appears to be available on the web. However, and as I now understand, the point that no one seems to have picked up is that we are not comparing eggs with eggs here. My set up is for racing, and is not the same spec as any of the "off the shelf" kits. At the end of the day, my calipers came from Rally Design too, so the difference in price is down to difference in spec. That is all.
Clearly there are cheaper alternatives available as has been demonstrated, but I have gone with a set up that has been recomended by someone who actually raced the cars and understands the demands put on the braking system, and has come up with a package that uses high quality parts and materials - fit for purpose.
Yes, Mark has to make a living which I certainly do not begrudge, and he has already gone way beyond the call of duty in acommodating us, but I'm sure this is in the expectation that our relationship becomes long and lasting. It is not an easy existence, everyone expects a deal, and it's usually the man in the middle that gets squeezed. I'm very glad that I don't tend to come across some of the attitudes shown here in my own line of work.

MG1980
20-02-2012, 16:23
I see absolutely no benefit in how far this thread has gone off topic. I get some great advice from this site as to what to do and how to do it, what parts I need etc. but when it come to buying something, I always do my homework and shop around. I know that it will always be on my head as the buyer to source the best possible deal.

I've never used MF Motorsport, but heard nothing but good things about them, and I'm not a million miles away in Kent. Let them do what they do, and if you are not satisfied with what they are any other business charge, don't use them! Simples!

I for one would rather pay more to get what I feel is either a better service or peace of mind!

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 16:55
I would describe this forum as organic in that it is allowed to operate under natural circumstances, for allowing a healthy debate/discussion.
It is what everyone of us makes it and will nourish our minds provided we all respect each others choice's/decisions etc etc and speak honestly.

I have seen nothing negative in the topic thusfar, but perhaps my own views being slightly bias when Daz mentioned tuners/garages taking price's from the air. I was being defensive as my own brother runs a garage also and I know it helps feed the mouths of the workers and their families in these tough times. And I'm being slightly hypocritical in that I will try save a buck or two by doing some of the work myself, and often go over there and be a pain in the ass. nowt wrong with that I dont think but try replacing a wheel bearing without a bench press:-) He does come in handy at times.

Anyways, perhaps I jumped to a conclusion perhaps not but at that moment I felt it was inappropriate to jump off topic and inflame another poster's obvious bewilderment especially seeing as I posted up the damn prices anyhow. :roll:

That said, how do you know which servo match's which kit?

MAXIBOY
20-02-2012, 18:38
If my friend sells me a caliper bracket that he made on his own time as a personal sale, no it is not covered, but he would just make me another one for a beer. That's how friendships work. If i was invoiced by his company i would have the right to return the faulty item.

quoted from grizz

and if if broke while you were racing and you destroyed your car and damaged a few others then what..

lots of beer to drown your sorrows i guess lol..

some people

samfish
20-02-2012, 18:43
Sorry if it did go off topic, and is irrelevant to most. I couldn't help responding.

I spoke to my Dad and he said the original servo is perfect for the job with the Willwoods. Piston size etc was all taken into account and calculated :)

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 18:54
I spoke to my Dad and he said the original servo is perfect for the job with the Willwoods. Piston size etc was all taken into account and calculated :)

Thanks Sam. That's good enough advice for me and very much appreciated.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 18:55
Part number for the renaultsport brake master cylinder is in the parts catalogue.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 18:58
If my friend sells me a caliper bracket that he made on his own time as a personal sale, no it is not covered, but he would just make me another one for a beer. That's how friendships work. If i was invoiced by his company i would have the right to return the faulty item.

quoted from grizz

and if if broke while you were racing and you destroyed your car and damaged a few others then what..

lots of beer to drown your sorrows i guess lol..

some people

Broke like your car was you mean?

schakal
20-02-2012, 20:57
Flol @ Barrington massive :D


Fabs , you dont drive fast enough to justify better brakes .
Dont go all pussy on us :P

16v_paddy
20-02-2012, 21:26
Has anyone with 4 pots changed the master cylinder for 1 with a different piston size?

I'm just curious what difference it makes as it's something I've considered doing but can't really be bothered as I'm lazy :P

And back to Jamie, do you know what size discs you're running with that kit yet?

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 21:36
Paddy have a look at page 1 it explains a wee bit about the effects of changing the master cylinder.
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/pdf/designing_4_pot_brakes.pdf

I already have a larger bore than standard as myself and Wobba established that the Phase 1 had a bore of 19mm and the Phase 2 supplied to me last year by GSF has 21mm (same original part number).

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 21:53
I have changed master cylinder on my rally car mainly because i made a bespoke set of non-servo assist brakes for it by modifying a mk2 escort pedal box. I ran a wilwood master cylinder and i think it was 0.75, with a 0.625 on the rear.

Not sure what size the standard renault one is.

At the moment i have gone back to standard brakes, mainly because i have converted my car to left hand drive and only have one pedal box that i am too scared to butcher in case i cant find another and **** it up. When i get another i will mount the non servo brakes again though it think.

16v_paddy
20-02-2012, 22:05
Hmmmmm interesting :-k Just had a look on dialogys & the valver and willy master cylinders are exactly the same, mine is a phase 2 so most likely already has the bigger 1 fitted

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 22:09
Have you got your hands on those carbotech pads yet? gonna sample as many as i can when i get the pots. :)

16v_paddy
20-02-2012, 22:31
Not yet, not gonna bother with them until it's time to renew the discs

http://www.ctbrakes.com/calipers.asp

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 22:35
ai good call. they have a UK office I think I saw a contact there somewhere.

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 22:36
http://www.carbotech-europe.com/

fabulicious
20-02-2012, 23:01
Flol @ Barrington massive :D



Now I know why everyone hates the bastard.

Grizzler
20-02-2012, 23:19
Flol @ Barrington massive :D


Fabs , you dont drive fast enough to justify better brakes .
Dont go all pussy on us :P

And how are you my little Turkish Delight?

16v_paddy
20-02-2012, 23:54
http://www.carbotech-europe.com/

They're the ones to go through but the part numbers you need are on the yankee doodle dandy link I posted :wink:

jock
21-02-2012, 03:07
Flol @ Barrington massive :D



Now I know why everyone hates the B**t**d.
Flol. . . . . the perch need to recognise a pike before its too late! ;-)

Jamie Summers
21-02-2012, 10:21
And back to Jamie, do you know what size discs you're running with that kit yet?

Sorry, still not sure. I'm sure when we were discussing it Mark said the brackets were designed to work with 172 discs. I'm new to the whole Clio scene, so please forgive my lack of familiarity with how it all works !

I'll check next time I speak to Mark, which is likely to be in the next few days...........

Sam is right that we have retained the exisiting MC, but I don't know whether the Cup version is uprated from standard 16v or Williams. Either way the pedal feel is good, and if anything felt overly assisted on a very slippery circuit. It will be much better in the dry with sticky tyres.

Jamie

samfish
21-02-2012, 11:19
I think my dad said they are 280mm 172 discs. Standard hubs. Standard MC.

Those Mintex pads are very aggressive Jamie, with a strong initial bite. This may make them a bit harder to modulate in the wet, but will give you lots of confidence when you touch the pedal in the dry.

In the ideal world you could have a set of bedded pads and discs to swap over if it was a wet weekend, with a more progressive bite.
But it can start getting silly can't it.... :shock:

Jamie Summers
21-02-2012, 12:29
Sam,
Yes, the initial bite is sharp, but once we'd figured out you need to be gentle and progressive with the application they were fine. To be honest we will never have a track that is that slippery in race conditions, the salt and moisture on the track made it like ice. There would have been more grip in torrential rain !
We might get a set of standard pads for wet use, but as you say, it can start to get silly !

Jamie

samfish
21-02-2012, 14:27
Good to have some slippery running though.
I have no practice in the wet, so I'll be a bit worried when it starts raining before a race!!

I love those Mintex F4R pads. The Mk1 golf has a notoriously bad pedal feel, and they transformed it into something resembling a modern race car.
The Mini Challenge cars use them too.
We have fitted some of the expensive Pagid Blue pads to a customers car. Alot of the Porsche boys use them with good results. The MAGA money endurance ones - apparently they can do a 24 hour race without changes! Amazing.
I would love to try some.

Jamie Summers
21-02-2012, 15:38
Without wishing to go too far off topic ...........

In my experience the Pagid Blues are OK, but you can get uneven pad material deposits on the discs leading to bad juddering under hard track use.
The Pagid Yellow RS29s are the best things going ! I use them on my Porsche (964 RS). With SRF fluid you can stand on them all day long without any hint of fade. They even work perfectly well from cold. They do squeal like hell though, which draws a bit of attention on the road. I actually get through two sets of front discs to one set of pads (the discs just crack between the holes) !
They're not cheap, but neither are the discs ....... (discs alone £456 parts only).
Trust me, these Clios are cheap fun !

Jamie

stevie_b
21-02-2012, 16:09
We have fitted some of the expensive Pagid Blue pads to a customers car. A lot of the Porsche boys use them with good results.

Not sure about other models but most of the GT2/3 track-brigade are running Yellows (RS29s). As I mentioned earlier these are a great pad and do last and last but they are pretty pricey (£400+ for the front pads alone!)

samfish
21-02-2012, 16:30
I meant Yellows :)

Jamie Summers
21-02-2012, 17:53
If they did RS29s in a Wilwood fitment I'd seriously consider them for the Clio. I bet you'd get a full season out of a single set !

16v_paddy
21-02-2012, 20:00
I think my dad said they are 280mm 172 discs. Standard hubs. Standard MC.


If that's the case I'd quite like to buy a pair of the brackets so I can use 172 discs :D

zmaster2k
21-02-2012, 21:41
And me!!

samfish
21-02-2012, 21:59
Okey doke. I'll get a price for a batch.

16v_paddy
21-02-2012, 22:29
:affro:

stevie_b
21-02-2012, 22:46
I might be interested too Sam.


In my experience the Pagid Blues are OK, but you can get uneven pad material deposits on the discs leading to bad juddering under hard track use.

Same issue that I have had Jamie. The RS4-2 (blues) were a good pad but just didn't handle really heavy use. After 20 laps of the 'Ring my nearly new pads looked like this (and took the discs out with them - see the crack right across the disc at 3 o'clock):

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/sub_brakes.jpg

Replaced with Pagid RS29 (Yellow) which have been great (and I'm sure the AP 330mm discs and AP 6-pots helped too):

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/ap_brakes.jpg


(the discs just crack between the holes)

Common fault with Porsche discs Jamie (in fact all discs that have been drilled, so don't know why Porsche keep fitting them to their cars that are likely to be subject to track use like RS/GT models, etc.):

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6232/gt3012br4.jpg

The drilled ones are always going to wear out through cracks prematurely - I've gone for solid discs on mine now as a result. I presume there is someone making similar for the 964RS.

Jamie Summers
22-02-2012, 10:02
I might be interested too Sam.


In my experience the Pagid Blues are OK, but you can get uneven pad material deposits on the discs leading to bad juddering under hard track use.

Same issue that I have had Jamie. The RS4-2 (blues) were a good pad but just didn't handle really heavy use. After 20 laps of the 'Ring my nearly new pads looked like this (and took the discs out with them - see the crack right across the disc at 3 o'clock):

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/sub_brakes.jpg

Replaced with Pagid RS29 (Yellow) which have been great (and I'm sure the AP 330mm discs and AP 6-pots helped too):

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/ap_brakes.jpg


(the discs just crack between the holes)

Common fault with Porsche discs Jamie (in fact all discs that have been drilled, so don't know why Porsche keep fitting them to their cars that are likely to be subject to track use like RS/GT models, etc.):

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6232/gt3012br4.jpg

The drilled ones are always going to wear out through cracks prematurely - I've gone for solid discs on mine now as a result. I presume there is someone making similar for the 964RS.

No one has really come up with a viable alternative for the 964 RS. The GT3 crowd tend to opt for Alcon floating discs which seem to last much better than the factory option, but I haven't seen anyone offering a 964 RS fitment for a floating disc set up. I'm not prepared to go to the expense of paying for someone to do the R&D to build custom hats. Nor have I come across a solid disc in the right size (bigger than standard 964 C2 / C4), and anyway I'm a bit of a tart and like the look of the holey ones !!!
There is some debate about having discs cryogenically frozen to prolong their lives, but I'm not sure the cost is justifiable unless doing a big batch.
As the price of discs continues to rise I imagine there will be more incentive for people to find alternatives.......... In the meantime I'll have to stick with the OE drilled discs.

Anyway, apologies to all, we've gone way off topic here !!!!

Jamie

fabulicious
22-02-2012, 14:04
Not sure if we have mentioned the rear axle much here, how important is it to fit better pads/discs on the rear axle if you upgrade to a 4 pot set-up?
I know some are using incar bias valves and all but for those with just the option of adjusting the rear bias valves can you offer some suggestions on how aggressive one can go with rear pads or is it a case of testing many different types of pad?

Jamie Summers
22-02-2012, 15:06
The advice I have had is that the rears do so little work that there is almost no point in upgrading them at all - standard discs, calipers and pads are fine........

The Cup car has a sort of manual bias adjuster on the rear axle, and the idea is to move as much bias rearwards as it takes for the rear brakes to be hot after a session on track, ie hot enough to feel heat radiating from the wheel, but not at smoking /meltdown temp.

I would caveat that this is a recomendation for race use, and as yet I don't have a great deal of experience of how this works in reality or on a road car.

Jamie

cliokongen
22-02-2012, 15:13
Front pads - try Performance Friction 01
(7752.01.12.44) = part number for the Willwood caliper mentioned earlier.

They are brilliant... Pedal feel is good, works from cold, makes some noice though, they will not fade!


Michael

fabulicious
22-02-2012, 16:40
So without stating the obvious, stick a fresh set of pads in there and it should help with the pedal travelling further if even a small tad?
Very much a race spec pad them ones Michael? Not for scenic fitment :lol:

cliokongen
22-02-2012, 17:36
Very much a race spec pad them ones Michael? Not for scenic fitment :lol:

Well.... :D The thought did cross my mind though!

fabulicious
22-02-2012, 17:55
:rotflmao:
only you! 8)

Jamie Summers
22-02-2012, 18:33
So without stating the obvious, stick a fresh set of pads in there and it should help with the pedal travelling further if even a small tad?


Shouldn't have any effect on pedal travel. Assuming you have enough brake fluid in the system and a big enough reservoir ! As the pad wears down the fluid behind the pistons pushes the pad closer to the disc - pedal travel should remain, essentially, the same .......

The pedal travel is determined by how much fluid the master cylinder is having to push round the brake system, hence why you might want to increase the master cylinder size if increasing caliper size (and hence brake piston size). Worn pads should not make any difference to this provided the reservoir has sufficient capacity.

You will get a "long pedal" if fluid starts to boil as it loses its ability to transmit pedal pressure to cylinder pressure efficiently.

That said, newer, thicker pads absorb heat build-up better, so you get less transfer back to the fluid and are less likely to boil the fluid, arguably.

The rear pads come with very little meat on them anyway, so I wouldn't get too hung up on it. So long as they are not down to the metal backing plates they're probably fine !!!

Much more important to get the caliper piston size matched to the master cylinder size to ensure a nice firm pedal to start with. Be aware that the "off the shelf" calipers, be they Wilwood, Brembo, or any other may not be an optimum match for the master cylinder and thus brake feel and pedal travel may not be as good as it could be.

Jamie

fabulicious
22-02-2012, 20:40
Ta Jamie.
did you get your MC upgraded? I think the Phase one have 19mm and the Phase 2 20mm.
Stevie has some nice tricks for the pedal though if you find it long.

Jamie Summers
23-02-2012, 09:56
No, stuck with the original MC - Mark did the calculation to make sure brake piston size was a correct match for the MC, so we have a lovely firm pedal. We need to tweak the front / rear bias a bit, but it feels good.

Jamie

stevie_b
23-02-2012, 12:38
The GT3 crowd tend to opt for Alcon floating discs which seem to last much better than the factory option

Yes, a lot of us have gone for the Alcons. There is a Performance Friction option available to us too but the hat fouls the standard pad shape so you either have to stick to using PF pads too (which are shaped to accommodate it) or grind a bit of non-PF pads off to clear the hat, which I wasn't that keen on. I've heard some of the PF pads are pretty good though so I might go down that route to try once my Alcon/Pagid RS29 combination is worn out.


I haven't seen anyone offering a 964 RS fitment for a floating disc set up.

Are you running the standard 322mm disc? There is a company called GiroDisc that I have heard make non-drilled slotted discs in 964RS fitment. I've not used any of their stuff myself but they look to be a proper floating setup like my APs pictured earlier, with a light alloy hat, and should last far longer on track than the OE setup.

Jamie Summers
23-02-2012, 13:03
[quote=
Are you running the standard 322mm disc? There is a company called GiroDisc that I have heard make non-drilled slotted discs in 964RS fitment. I've not used any of their stuff myself but they look to be a proper floating setup like my APs pictured earlier, with a light alloy hat, and should last far longer on track than the OE setup.[/quote]

Thanks, yes running standard size discs, I've heard of GiroDisc, but don't know of anyone using them on a 964 RS. Sounds promising, though, I'll look into it a bit more .........

Jamie

Grizzler
23-02-2012, 13:36
All well and good discussing competition cars, but it is going off topic and misleading the OP as i dont think he owns a rally car or a tin top race car. Huge expensive alcons are total overkill on a 900 kg clio and really belong on a heavy skyline or 200 sx.

What is the weight difference between the basic standard disc wilwood kit and these large disc alcon kits? I wonder if the extra unsprung weight (if there is any and i suspect there is) actually makes these bigger brakes a performance downgrade?

If you want the looks of 4 pots, which certainly wont be any advantage over standard calipers on the road, just get the cheapest wilwood kit you can or bolt on some 406 brembos.

An to the master cylinder question, the clio group a ran a different master cylinder, so renault obviously thought the original one was not suitable for the 4 pot calipers they selected.

Jamie Summers
23-02-2012, 14:35
All well and good discussing competition cars, but it is going off topic and misleading the OP as i dont think he owns a rally car or a tin top race car. Huge expensive alcons are total overkill on a 900 kg clio and really belong on a heavy skyline or 200 sx.

What is the weight difference between the basic standard disc wilwood kit and these large disc alcon kits? I wonder if the extra unsprung weight (if there is any and i suspect there is) actually makes these bigger brakes a performance downgrade?

If you want the looks of 4 pots, which certainly wont be any advantage over standard calipers on the road, just get the cheapest wilwood kit you can or bolt on some 406 brembos.

An to the master cylinder question, the clio group a ran a different master cylinder, so renault obviously thought the original one was not suitable for the 4 pot calipers they selected.

Keep up at the back, we were way off topic, talking about Porsches........ completely irrelevant to the rest of this discussion I grant you, just following a little side conversation.
Don't get your knickers in a knot about Alcons not being relevant for a 900kg Clio - if you actually bothered to work out what we were talking about then you wouldn't have needed to post.......

stevie_b
23-02-2012, 15:02
it is going off topic and misleading the OP

I don't think he is being mislead by this discussion. I believe he has already come to a decision on the route he is following and now we are just chatting about the pros and cons of braking systems in general - the things people have to take into consideration on other cars and perhaps some of that is useful in the context of a Clio, or not. Whilst I think the Clios standard brakes are adequate I think a wider discussion about the angles people look at it from are interesting. I've certainly found it so and I don't see anyone's posts saying "Do not fit that - do only this" or suchlike that could be construed as sending the OP down a particular path.


Huge expensive alcons are total overkill on a 900 kg clio and really belong on a heavy skyline or 200 sx.

I agree. I was talking about their use on GT3s. Apologies if widening the discussion caused this confusion.


What is the weight difference between the basic standard disc wilwood kit and these large disc alcon kits?

I've no idea I'm afraid. The Alcons I've got are 350mm and would easily weigh twice as much as the 259mm standard discs on my Clios I would think. You aren't easily going to fit 350mm discs on a Clio though and, as you suggest, that isn't going to bring any real benefit going that large anyway. I would think the Wilwood caliper could weigh slightly less than the OE caliper though, so if you are sticking with 259mm discs on the Clio then you could say there is a small improvement in the unsprung weight as an advantage with the Wilwoods.


I wonder if the extra unsprung weight (if there is any and i suspect there is) actually makes these bigger brakes a performance downgrade?

If you just change the calipers I would think that there isn't any extra. If you go from 259mm to 280mm discs then there probably is. You certainly want as little unsprung weight as possible UNTIL things start to be found lacking or fail. That was essentially an angle I was trying to get across in that you don't necessarily install 'better' brakes as they are going to stop you any quicker - you might do it as you are trying to cope with the heat and come up with a setup that does not prematurely wear out due to overheating. If that setup ends up being a bit heavier as a result then that is something you might have to live with, or stick with a lower weight and replace it more often.


An to the master cylinder question, the clio group a ran a different master cylinder, so renault obviously thought the original one was not suitable for the 4 pot calipers they selected.

It did. The problem is that I don't think we know (actually you might?) the CSA of the pistons in their 4-pots compared to the Wilwood caliper. If you did and wanted to replicate the same feel you can calculate what master cylinder you would need. I'd be inclined to try it as it is initially and then see if you feel it needs changing. If it does and you work out in what way, and that way happens to match up with what Renault chose to do on their Group A car then that seems a next good step to try.

Jamie Summers
23-02-2012, 15:18
Much more politely put !!!

fabulicious
23-02-2012, 17:02
:D
Just as-well I was in the garage stripping down the brake's.
You gents are way too polite! :wink:

Grizzler
23-02-2012, 20:22
All well and good discussing competition cars, but it is going off topic and misleading the OP as i dont think he owns a rally car or a tin top race car. Huge expensive alcons are total overkill on a 900 kg clio and really belong on a heavy skyline or 200 sx.

What is the weight difference between the basic standard disc wilwood kit and these large disc alcon kits? I wonder if the extra unsprung weight (if there is any and i suspect there is) actually makes these bigger brakes a performance downgrade?

If you want the looks of 4 pots, which certainly wont be any advantage over standard calipers on the road, just get the cheapest wilwood kit you can or bolt on some 406 brembos.

An to the master cylinder question, the clio group a ran a different master cylinder, so renault obviously thought the original one was not suitable for the 4 pot calipers they selected.

Keep up at the back, we were way off topic, talking about Porsches........ completely irrelevant to the rest of this discussion I grant you, just following a little side conversation.
Don't get your knickers in a knot about Alcons not being relevant for a 900kg Clio - if you actually bothered to work out what we were talking about then you wouldn't have needed to post.......

Dont worry about me, i was locking horns with people on forums before you even knew what the internet was.

fabulicious
23-02-2012, 20:53
Dont worry about me, i was locking horns with people on forums before you even knew what the internet was.

Yeah and stealing peoples idea's, photographs and ripping off domain name's to present his shite to the world.
give it up you idiot. I can smell your shite from here.

Grizzler
23-02-2012, 22:08
Dont worry about me, i was locking horns with people on forums before you even knew what the internet was.

Yeah and stealing peoples idea's, photographs and ripping off domain name's to present his shite to the world.
give it up you idiot. I can smell your shite from here.

And what ideas and photography have i 'stolen and ripped off'?

fabulicious
23-02-2012, 23:13
Dont worry about me, i was locking horns with people on forums before you even knew what the internet was.

Yeah and stealing peoples idea's, photographs and ripping off domain name's to present his shite to the world.
give it up you idiot. I can smell your shite from here.

And what ideas and photography have i 'stolen and ripped off'?


Lets start with the domain name shall we?

clio-williams.net
Have a look on the waybackmachine to find out the year it was established. Did you ask the permission of the French forum founders to use that name?

Recent Photography.
Did you ask my permission to rip that foto off this site and post it elsewhere?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b300/fabtrader/DSC03300.jpg

And Idea's.
As above really, sponging all over the net for your own egoistical deluded forum.

robi1000
24-02-2012, 00:02
Just in case anyone is interested, 4 pot Brembo calipers from Clio/Megane RS weigh 2.9kg with pads. Original Clio Williams calipers without pads weigh 3.1kg, with pads even more. Clio 1 72 calipers are a bit heavier then Williams items. So, with Clio 3 RS 4 pot Brembos there's a benefit of smaller unsprung weight. Not to menition they are forged aluminum and have greater pad area, so you can use less aggressive pads to have the same braking effect.

You can fit them under 15'' rim and I tried with 280mm discs under Speedline 2012 and it fits perfectly. I have some 300mm Scenic discs in the garage, but I have to try how this all fits.

Without major modifications I don't think you can go bigger then 308mm with Brembo calipers (at least on Speedline 2012), but then again why would anyone want to. Original brakes are fine, even slightly uprated ones are great. From there on it's just safety when braking repeatedly from really high speeds or when racing on a stage that goes downhill and you want some added safety margin and no fade at all (this is also the reason why Renault uprated the front brakes on their factory Clio Williams Gr.A).

robi1000
24-02-2012, 00:08
Oh, I just forgot to mention that the mentioned Speedlines 2012 were 16'', but like I said, it can be fitted under original Williams rims.

And using floating discs is not pointless at all. Aluminium hats shed quite a lot of weight. It's true that the weight difference is not that big with small rotors Clio's use, but anyone that held a normal 360mm iron disc knows they weigh a lot.

And because every kg of unsprung weight you take away from the wheels equals to about 4kg you take away elsewhere on the car (by this I mean the handling improvement), every kg counts. It's costly, but kg here and kg there, it adds up...

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 02:49
Dont worry about me, i was locking horns with people on forums before you even knew what the internet was.

Yeah and stealing peoples idea's, photographs and ripping off domain name's to present his shite to the world.
give it up you idiot. I can smell your shite from here.

And what ideas and photography have i 'stolen and ripped off'?


Lets start with the domain name shall we?

clio-williams.net
Have a look on the waybackmachine to find out the year it was established. Did you ask the permission of the French forum founders to use that name?

Recent Photography.
Did you ask my permission to rip that foto off this site and post it elsewhere?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b300/fabtrader/DSC03300.jpg

And Idea's.
As above really, sponging all over the net for your own egoistical deluded forum.

If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the **** is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 02:54
Search Mark Ritchspeed. Thread over.


Just been looking at a thread from Cliosport . Needless to say it really pisses me off when I read things like these statements from people who dont have a clue what they are talking about .

"problem with the wilwood is they don't have any dust seals, so need stripping and maintaining every 2/3000 miles"

YES , thats why my bottom of the range Wilwood calipers are nearly 4 years old and covered @ 40k miles without any problems


"you'd be a fool to get non dust sealed calipers for the road"

WHY , because some "respected" tuner has told you that and wants to sell his twice as expensive kit ?



"I do know a lot of people who use Hi-Spec big brake kits and they're all pretty happy"

Try and find someone who has used these on track with a heavy , powerful car and punishes brakes and they will be able to tell you how crap Hi-Spec stuff is .



Over the coming few months (as I get back into the trackday scene again) I will quite happily demostrate how my cheap , low quality , non dust-sealed set-up has never faded , leaked or seized in nearly 4 years of complete abuse .

Bear in mind I had already spent nearly £3k on brakes in one year experimenting before getting a set-up that worked every single time without fade, was easily serviceable and above all value for money . In my old Willy 3 I went through 17 sets of front discs IN 1 YEAR listening to various "respected" tuners advice on the matter .

In the prevailing years since using the Wilwood set-up my discs now last 4-5 track days before needing replacing . I used to change discs every single trackday and sometimes during the actual day.

In 99% of road going cars THE weakest single item in the brake set-up is the standard IRON caliper . It is NOT the discs , pads , hoses or fluid . It is the iron calipers that simply cannot dissapate heat which causes your pads to disintegrate , your discs to warp and your fluid to boil .

And before some clever bloke comes on here and says wheres the evidence ? I am not a scientist , I do not have figures on paper , its all practical experience at demolishing brakes on road and track. And yes , occasionally they have actually caught fire .

RANT OVER Mad

p.s That wasnt supposed to be a rant , I just wound myself up a little . Shocked

gdaniel
24-02-2012, 08:07
Your stinking attitude makes this forum appear so un-friendly. Being 'right' must be very important to you. Twat.

fabulicious
24-02-2012, 12:40
If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the f**k is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Are you familiar with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 14:07
If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the f**k is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Are you familiar with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

Ffs i think my friends 8 year old understands this.

Jamie Summers
24-02-2012, 15:00
Whoever you may be and whatever identity you happen to be hiding behind, you have clearly managed to wind up plenty of people here, either intentionally or otherwise.
So regardless of your motivations, rather than disputing anything other posters have to say, why don't you just do us all a favour and jog on .............

2 live
24-02-2012, 15:58
Search Mark Ritchspeed. Thread over.


Just been looking at a thread from Cliosport . Needless to say it really pisses me off when I read things like these statements from people who dont have a clue what they are talking about .

"problem with the wilwood is they don't have any dust seals, so need stripping and maintaining every 2/3000 miles"

YES , thats why my bottom of the range Wilwood calipers are nearly 4 years old and covered @ 40k miles without any problems


"you'd be a fool to get non dust sealed calipers for the road"

WHY , because some "respected" tuner has told you that and wants to sell his twice as expensive kit ?



"I do know a lot of people who use Hi-Spec big brake kits and they're all pretty happy"

Try and find someone who has used these on track with a heavy , powerful car and punishes brakes and they will be able to tell you how crap Hi-Spec stuff is .



Over the coming few months (as I get back into the trackday scene again) I will quite happily demostrate how my cheap , low quality , non dust-sealed set-up has never faded , leaked or seized in nearly 4 years of complete abuse .

Bear in mind I had already spent nearly £3k on brakes in one year experimenting before getting a set-up that worked every single time without fade, was easily serviceable and above all value for money . In my old Willy 3 I went through 17 sets of front discs IN 1 YEAR listening to various "respected" tuners advice on the matter .

In the prevailing years since using the Wilwood set-up my discs now last 4-5 track days before needing replacing . I used to change discs every single trackday and sometimes during the actual day.

In 99% of road going cars THE weakest single item in the brake set-up is the standard IRON caliper . It is NOT the discs , pads , hoses or fluid . It is the iron calipers that simply cannot dissapate heat which causes your pads to disintegrate , your discs to warp and your fluid to boil .

And before some clever bloke comes on here and says wheres the evidence ? I am not a scientist , I do not have figures on paper , its all practical experience at demolishing brakes on road and track. And yes , occasionally they have actually caught fire .

RANT OVER Mad

p.s That wasnt supposed to be a rant , I just wound myself up a little . Shocked


lol. id have to disagree with you there. sure the calipers arent the best at dissapating heat, but if they were the sole fault of fade, fluid boiling etc, how come a change of pads stops all that?
your logic is flawed

the pad material in std items is ok for pootling around at 30 mph. but cant cope with multiple high speed stops. change pads and the car can now cope with that. same fluid, same discs, same calipers, just diff pads.

2 live
24-02-2012, 15:58
Search Mark Ritchspeed. Thread over.


Just been looking at a thread from Cliosport . Needless to say it really pisses me off when I read things like these statements from people who dont have a clue what they are talking about .

"problem with the wilwood is they don't have any dust seals, so need stripping and maintaining every 2/3000 miles"

YES , thats why my bottom of the range Wilwood calipers are nearly 4 years old and covered @ 40k miles without any problems


"you'd be a fool to get non dust sealed calipers for the road"

WHY , because some "respected" tuner has told you that and wants to sell his twice as expensive kit ?



"I do know a lot of people who use Hi-Spec big brake kits and they're all pretty happy"

Try and find someone who has used these on track with a heavy , powerful car and punishes brakes and they will be able to tell you how crap Hi-Spec stuff is .



Over the coming few months (as I get back into the trackday scene again) I will quite happily demostrate how my cheap , low quality , non dust-sealed set-up has never faded , leaked or seized in nearly 4 years of complete abuse .

Bear in mind I had already spent nearly £3k on brakes in one year experimenting before getting a set-up that worked every single time without fade, was easily serviceable and above all value for money . In my old Willy 3 I went through 17 sets of front discs IN 1 YEAR listening to various "respected" tuners advice on the matter .

In the prevailing years since using the Wilwood set-up my discs now last 4-5 track days before needing replacing . I used to change discs every single trackday and sometimes during the actual day.

In 99% of road going cars THE weakest single item in the brake set-up is the standard IRON caliper . It is NOT the discs , pads , hoses or fluid . It is the iron calipers that simply cannot dissapate heat which causes your pads to disintegrate , your discs to warp and your fluid to boil .

And before some clever bloke comes on here and says wheres the evidence ? I am not a scientist , I do not have figures on paper , its all practical experience at demolishing brakes on road and track. And yes , occasionally they have actually caught fire .

RANT OVER Mad

p.s That wasnt supposed to be a rant , I just wound myself up a little . Shocked


lol. id have to disagree with you there. sure the calipers arent the best at dissapating heat, but if they were the sole fault of fade, fluid boiling etc, how come a change of pads stops all that?
your logic is flawed

the pad material in std items is ok for pootling around at 30 mph. but cant cope with multiple high speed stops. change pads and the car can now cope with that. same fluid, same discs, same calipers, just diff pads.

fabulicious
24-02-2012, 16:01
If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the f**k is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Are you familiar with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

Ffs i think my friends 8 year old understands this.



You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

And in your case we call that cyber squatting or theft or plagiarism for use of more word's.
As I said you ripped off the domain name from the French site, you clearly admitted stealing my photograph without my consent, and I'm sure if someone was to investigate your website and computers for plagiarism they will find plenty of it.


You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

Another stick your finger up my arse lecture is it Rob? :lol:

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 16:15
Search Mark Ritchspeed. Thread over.


Just been looking at a thread from Cliosport . Needless to say it really pisses me off when I read things like these statements from people who dont have a clue what they are talking about .

"problem with the wilwood is they don't have any dust seals, so need stripping and maintaining every 2/3000 miles"

YES , thats why my bottom of the range Wilwood calipers are nearly 4 years old and covered @ 40k miles without any problems


"you'd be a fool to get non dust sealed calipers for the road"

WHY , because some "respected" tuner has told you that and wants to sell his twice as expensive kit ?



"I do know a lot of people who use Hi-Spec big brake kits and they're all pretty happy"

Try and find someone who has used these on track with a heavy , powerful car and punishes brakes and they will be able to tell you how crap Hi-Spec stuff is .



Over the coming few months (as I get back into the trackday scene again) I will quite happily demostrate how my cheap , low quality , non dust-sealed set-up has never faded , leaked or seized in nearly 4 years of complete abuse .

Bear in mind I had already spent nearly £3k on brakes in one year experimenting before getting a set-up that worked every single time without fade, was easily serviceable and above all value for money . In my old Willy 3 I went through 17 sets of front discs IN 1 YEAR listening to various "respected" tuners advice on the matter .

In the prevailing years since using the Wilwood set-up my discs now last 4-5 track days before needing replacing . I used to change discs every single trackday and sometimes during the actual day.

In 99% of road going cars THE weakest single item in the brake set-up is the standard IRON caliper . It is NOT the discs , pads , hoses or fluid . It is the iron calipers that simply cannot dissapate heat which causes your pads to disintegrate , your discs to warp and your fluid to boil .

And before some clever bloke comes on here and says wheres the evidence ? I am not a scientist , I do not have figures on paper , its all practical experience at demolishing brakes on road and track. And yes , occasionally they have actually caught fire .

RANT OVER Mad

p.s That wasnt supposed to be a rant , I just wound myself up a little . Shocked



lol. id have to disagree with you there.

Not me. Mark Ritchspeed, was his quote.

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 16:17
If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the f**k is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Are you familiar with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

Ffs i think my friends 8 year old understands this.



You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

And in your case we call that cyber squatting or theft or plagiarism for use of more word's.
As I said you ripped off the domain name from the French site, you clearly admitted stealing my photograph without my consent, and I'm sure if someone was to investigate your website and computers for plagiarism they will find plenty of it.


You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

Another stick your finger up my arse lecture is it Rob? :lol:

You are clearly mentally ill as you seem unable to grasp the simple concept of buying and owning a domain name. I wont explain it again, as i would be clearly wasting my time.

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 16:22
Blah blah blah blah blah blah.............

Stop crying like a baby and grow up.

Jamie Summers
24-02-2012, 16:34
Right back at ya', jeez, you really are a piece of work .............

Harry Monk
24-02-2012, 16:46
Right back at ya', jeez, you really are a piece of work .............

The thread doesnt lie. Read back, you were the first to write an insulting post. The evidence is there for all to see.

fabulicious
24-02-2012, 16:58
If you own www.clio-williams.net you don't own www.clio-williams.co.uk. Different domain names and different ownership. I don't have to ask anyone permission for jack. I own that name. Which incidentally , is the correct way round. What the f**k is a williams clio? It doesnt say that anywhere on my car.

As for you picture, i haven't stolen anything, just linked to your for sale ad and to your photo bucket account. If you don't want the pics on the net, make the account private. No law against linking to pictures, Sorry.

Fail.

Are you familiar with this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

Ffs i think my friends 8 year old understands this.



You cant buy or plagerise a domain name that already has been purchased because IT WONT BE FOR SALE and therefore would be impossible to use.

And in your case we call that cyber squatting or theft or plagiarism for use of more word's.
As I said you ripped off the domain name from the French site, you clearly admitted stealing my photograph without my consent, and I'm sure if someone was to investigate your website and computers for plagiarism they will find plenty of it.


You obviously have no idea how domain names work and are clearly therefore pretty thick. Each domain name is separate. Buying cococola.com, doent not give you any rights over cocacocla.co.uk. They are different entities. To buy one you go to a web site and buy the one you want that hasnt already been purchased. If no one owns it, and you buy it it becomes your property.

Another stick your finger up my arse lecture is it Rob? :lol:

You are clearly mentally ill as you seem unable to grasp the simple concept of buying and owning a domain name. I wont explain it again, as i would be clearly wasting my time.


And you clearly are not to be trusted.

Jamie Summers
24-02-2012, 17:14
Right back at ya', jeez, you really are a piece of work .............

The thread doesnt lie. Read back, you were the first to write an insulting post. The evidence is there for all to see.

Right, that's it, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home ........

stevie_b
24-02-2012, 17:40
it is going off topic

Where's that Grizzler chap when we need him to keep this thread in strict order?

zmaster2k
24-02-2012, 22:54
Omg FLoL

Seriously ?!

This is quite pathetic now!

Jesus who ficking cares I have wilwoods serve me ok!
**** what any any body else says tbh they are better than my standard setup.

cliorod
02-03-2012, 21:15
Just to bring things back to normality
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h305/Cliorod/Picture1137.jpg :lol: :? :lol:
As promised a few weeks ago,a PROPER 4 piston caliper brake kit,using (what I consider) the best quality items around....If they are ok for the S1600/S2000 works Rally cars,then they are not to bad.

295mm x 25.4 discs only picked them up today,ready to fit pads available from £40 plus the dreaded,depending on the compound,of which all available.
As a "one off" kit,everything you see in the picture,plus the nuts & bolts £1100 plus vat,will get cheaper the more that are sold,can come as you want it,priced accordingly brackets & bells,Discs & Calipers.etc.
If anyone is interested please get in touch.
Will go under a 15" Turbine wheel,so ok foe Williams,Meganes etc etc.
I am contemplating putting these on the Rally Car,and selling my Alcons plus brakets etc.
Rod

Ps Apologies,for the eagle eyed viewers,I picked up two calipres of the same hand...they come as a pair left & right handed :oops: :oops: :oops: