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fabulicious
18-01-2012, 13:48
I'm trying to get my head around this front end lift that I experience with the car. Seems more pronounced now with those 888's fitted and partly because I'm doing more city driving now.

So before I go and splash out silly money on coilovers or other struts for my desired application I am considering options.

I guess it would be of help if I stated that I do not want to lower the car but I would like some more firmness and to eradicate that lift as much as possible.

Go for stiffer front dampers front and rear? Would that assist with eradicating front end lift?
Any suggestions, ideas, contributions, donations ?

northy
18-01-2012, 14:10
can you give me some background on why you think you are getting front end lift ?

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 14:50
Mostly when gunning it in first and second. Front end just seems to be raising up more than I thought it used to. Dunno mate just trying to gauge what you lads think and get the front end a bit more planted. :)

16v_paddy
18-01-2012, 14:59
I'd consider some stiffer shocks at the rear, maybe look at what state the suspension bushes are in :?:

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 15:06
Everything has been renewed. roll bar bushings, struts, wishbones, ball joints, top mounts etc etc. Tracking is spot on.

16v_paddy
18-01-2012, 15:19
Well you've got me stumped for ideas now :?

A&P
18-01-2012, 15:32
Is it definatley the front lifting and not the rear squating down i.e rear brakes dragging, just an idea mate.

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 15:40
ai andrew..it's the front lifting. and I am talking about hitting the limiter in first and second. car becomes under-steery too. tyre pressures are good.
I'll double check the rear brakes but the car moves when handbrake is off if thats any good an indication all is well there :-)

It could well be the characteristic of the oe setup.

Am I correct in saying the shocks determine the stiffness of the rear and not the bars? have some other shocks on the way so will see how it is then.
thanks for the decat mate. shes sounds like a lion! :D

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 16:28
I'm deffo thinking it's the oe dampers/springs. Have the daily side by side with it, which is no slouch, and it's as stiff as fook when you press down on the front end.
The willy on the other hand is feeling rather soft. Rebound is good but it's much easier to press down on.
I noticed also the other day around town. The clio was a lot more comfortable :shock: believe that if you will!
I'm thinking that when reno changed supplier the original setup was lost in the dampers :?: The springs well they have the white paint mark and are correct part numbers so I'll assume they are the correct poundage.

Lunner
18-01-2012, 17:05
Springs / bars determine the stiffness, and shocks control the bounce, ie make it react quicker to minimise the bounce

Lunner
18-01-2012, 17:06
What tyres did you have on before the 888's?

Could just be that teh R888's have a larger profile and a softer sidewall??

chip
18-01-2012, 17:29
Springs / bars determine the stiffness, and shocks control the bounce, ie make it react quicker to minimise the bounce

springs and bars will determine how far a car rolls (or compresses due to weight shift) but the shocks will help determine how quickly that change happens.

So stiffer shocks at the rear could help him for example.

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 17:47
A very old set of yoko a539.
I suppose I could stick on the speedlines with the original 185 michelin's and see if I notice a difference.
the 888's are so much more gripier (if thats a word :-)) though. she was cocking up her rear wheels with very little effort at donni last year.:-) and the extra camber the tyres produce is nice.

but this lifting in the front is a problem for me. don't like it at all. :?

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 18:00
Do you know what I think it could be? The grip from the 888's is making the suspension work way harder. The older tyres would have spun or lost traction at some point during acceleration therefore making the car sit down lower.
Does that make any sense?
If it does then it kinda makes the oe suspension redundant when you have much more grip.

will.i.am.s2
18-01-2012, 21:21
Id try some uprated rear shocks. Mine did what yours is doing slightly, uprated the rear shocks and its much better but still there a little, hence why im turning them up this weekend.

Its worth mentioning that renault used 3-4 different manufacturers for williams shock absorbers, should image that could be a factor.

fabulicious
18-01-2012, 21:44
Thanks for the feedback Will.

I think it may be a turning point for me in regards to my approach to modifying this car. It's either keep it standard or go all out. So seeing as I have spent enough already I'm gonna call it a day before something bad happens. I'm beginning to think that the bearing going on me last year on arrival at the track was a sign to quit.

fabulicious
20-01-2012, 20:42
quit me arse :P

So I think I've almost decided what to go for.

Bilstein coilover's..(great price)

http://www.bps-racing.com/boutique.aspx?l=combine-filete-bilstein-renault-clio-williams-av-gr-n&prod=11974

or Eibach Spring and Billies B6 Strut (these come recommended as better than original from the lads in france)

http://www.pieces-auto-sport.net/liaison-au-sol/amortisseur-bilstein/bilstein-b6/renault.html

http://www.pieces-auto-sport.net/liaison-au-sol/ressort-court-eibach/renault.html
A 15mm drop which I can live with.

tutuur
20-01-2012, 22:14
Wow the price on the coilovers are amazing!

I would go for them without a doubt!
Please share your experiences if you do :D

Rajk
21-01-2012, 02:16
I know what your talking about with the front lift, sorry I have just read the thread, I put a pair of rear AVO shocks on the willy2 and found them to be too stiff even on the softest setting. It was also the fact that I drive in London and there are poor road conditions and bumps pretty much everywhere, residential. I actually went to Reno and purchased a new pair of de-carbon shocks and they were fine. Only really have front lift now when I thrash the car up an steep hill, she will spin in 1st,2nd and 3rd.
:lol:

Coilies look good though, if you can make a great thing better, then do it!!

tutuur
21-01-2012, 08:05
I've been using google translate and came to the conclusion the Bilstein coilovers are €475 per unit. So would be €900 for only the front...

fabulicious
21-01-2012, 23:05
These are what you really should have
http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/267631561.htm?ca=22_s
:droool:

Yes tutuur they are priced per unit :wink:
I'm still trying to find out more about those collies but so far info is limited.

The option which seems quite popular over the water are the ViaRouge Sport or Circuit. Support of camber adjustment with the sport.
Supposedly very little drop on the front compared to a combination of billies and eibach which will give you a 25-30mm drop. Not really what i'm looking to do.

The easiest solution for me is to change the tyres.

Night.

fabulicious
24-01-2012, 12:59
So three days later after scouting out the french forum and any other resource I could find I'm a little bit wiser but not sure which way to play this.

Anyway's here is a pic of the viarouge sport I was on about. For those who don't know they make the dampers under license from De-Carbon (our original part supplier).
Nobody knows if they will drop the height (using original springs) and if so by how much. Some guessing they would be like the billies, around 15mm. Tried calling them but no reply by telephone.

Another thread goes on about Delphi. They made a "De Carbon Performance" damper for the valver, but finding a supplier could prove difficult. They are orange in colour.

My rear dampers havent arrived yet. Evogone must be doing the san remo rally or something:-)
But for the front I'm being cautious about coilovers especially as I use the car on the road and if not setup correctly they could perform worse than the standards. Dont want the yoke hopping and skipping all over the shop.

So final question..how important does anyone reckon it is that if the front gets lowered by 10/15mm that the rear should be lowered in accordance?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b300/fabtrader/viarouge20dh.jpg

will.i.am.s2
24-01-2012, 23:23
Did you check the avo adjustables (not coilovers)out on demontweeks, nice prices just for the fronts on there,

Im staying away from coilovers tbh. ive only ever had one set of gaz coilies on a car and yes the results were good for a while but all 4 were leaking after 6 months of road use, not a good buy considering the price.

I was at a crossroads like yourself with my williams about wether to modify it or not. Im going down the modifing route after some long hard thinking, but with me its more a case of uprating when things are breaking at the moment :) I think its a good thing to uprate parts on a car like this but the important thing is to keep it looking stock as possible imo because as soon as you do anything to the look of a williams it might aswell not be one :P

fabulicious
25-01-2012, 11:23
Very true will. I was trying to see if their was available struts/dampers without having a hack.
Looks as if every after market option will involve a camber adjustment or a lowering of the rear beam. Unless I was going all out track or other motorsport use no point me messing around with the standard setup I have. This is where having another williams would come in handy :D

2 live
25-01-2012, 20:32
as above really. the avo's are pretty good on both road and track. easily adjustable between the two. top adjusters on the front, btm on the rears,no need to remove wheels etc to adjust unless your adjusting the height. no need to drop either end if you dont want to. they arent overly harsh, although they are a hell of a lot stiffer than oe set up, depends on how you like your car to ride tho tbh.

de carbon was 60% owned by delphi back in 88, wasnt fully taken over by them til 97. so as you rightly say, de carbon/delphi shocks for the williams 'should' be one and the same, maybe the paint has changed colour, but all inside workings will be identical.

2 live
25-01-2012, 20:38
and theres plenty of delphi dealers around, even some in your neck of the woods.

fabulicious
25-01-2012, 21:09
as above really. the avo's are pretty good on both road and track. easily adjustable between the two. top adjusters on the front, btm on the rears,no need to remove wheels etc to adjust unless your adjusting the height. no need to drop either end if you dont want to. they arent overly harsh, although they are a hell of a lot stiffer than oe set up, depends on how you like your car to ride tho tbh.

de carbon was 60% owned by delphi back in 88, wasnt fully taken over by them til 97. so as you rightly say, de carbon/delphi shocks for the williams 'should' be one and the same, maybe the paint has changed colour, but all inside workings will be identical.

Are you referring to coilovers or the avo adjustables?

Yeah they were orange for a while and are now black. Not listed on the delphi site. just the rears.

2 live
25-01-2012, 21:45
end of the day mate. they are all coilovers. just that some are adjustable.

but yeah im on about the adjustables.

will.i.am.s2
25-01-2012, 22:45
no probs fabulicous my names rich btw, i put will.i.am.s2 to try and be clever so an easy mistake on your part :D

With the AVO adjustable suspension they would go straight on with out any camber adjustments or bodges and can be used with the standard williams springs if you would like to keep stock ride height so would save lowering the torsion beam (which ive only ever heard bad things about handling wise when messed with)

These are the ones..... http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/performance/shock-absorbers/avo-adjustable-shock-absorber

Price seems to have gone up on there though since last time i looked. I will be getting a set eventualy, ive decided against making my valver koni adjustables fit on the front.

fabulicious
25-01-2012, 23:26
Yep I emailed AVO direct today and they replied very quickly. 8)
They quoted me £100 each side.
BUT I need to verify something with Jamie as I was going over an old post and I think he had issue's with the top mount.

fabulicious
25-01-2012, 23:37
Have a look here rich..

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22544&highlight=avo

2 live
25-01-2012, 23:45
cant comment on the struts. but the adj. coilover kit was a breeze to fit. was the gtz kit i fitted all those moons ago.

2 live
25-01-2012, 23:46
altho apparently they do have issues when fitting the solid top mounts.

fabulicious
25-01-2012, 23:53
Dead end mate. Couldnt be arsed buying shite that doesnt fit without a hack.fookin pointless.

Wobba
26-01-2012, 14:25
My AVO GTZ's were great, except they do leak on the front sometimes.

The AST solid top mount issue was that the big nut on the top would damage the anodised finish on the mounts themselves, as the geometry of the strut got moved about when driving.

The rears never leaked.

My current KW V2 are expensive, but the finish and reliability has been very good, still look new. They are the softest sprung coilies I've used to date, soI uprated the springs with some I had made for them, at 500lb. Probably too stiff now lol. The downside is the V2's are not cheap at near £1k a set.

JoaoC
26-01-2012, 16:18
My AVO GTZ's were great, except they do leak on the front sometimes.

The AST solid top mount issue was that the big nut on the top would damage the anodised finish on the mounts themselves, as the geometry of the strut got moved about when driving.

The rears never leaked.

My current KW V2 are expensive, but the finish and reliability has been very good, still look new. They are the softest sprung coilies I've used to date, soI uprated the springs with some I had made for them, at 500lb. Probably too stiff now lol. The downside is the V2's are not cheap at near £1k a set.

Did you have any problems using your V2's with AST top mounts? I'm using the same setup and find that I only have a couple of threads to tighten the top nut, using the original nut. If I use the revised nut I can't even tighten them... Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?

fabulicious
26-01-2012, 16:22
Its about time you got back!
Weren't you supposed to be doing a write up on suspensions then? :whip:

I've only been in 2 other Williams besides my own, gaz's and richy's. Gaz's is like my own but Richy's had uprated springs and not sure which dampers but it felt very good.

Your mission if you choose to accept it is find a damper/suspension setup which improves on the original without, and I stress without lowering the car even 1mm!

richy
26-01-2012, 19:22
I've only been in 2 other Williams besides my own, gaz's and richy's. Gaz's is like my own but Richy's had uprated springs and not sure which dampers but it felt very good.



I had standard new dampers with custom made springs which were 200lb-standard height.

will.i.am.s2
26-01-2012, 19:45
Have a look here rich..

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22544&highlight=avo

Hmm thats interesting i hadnt noticed that thread, glad ive seen it though wouldnt have been seroiusly pissed if i bought them and they didnt go straight on 8)

fabulicious
26-01-2012, 19:52
I had standard new dampers with custom made springs which were 200lb-standard height.

:hug:

All this talk and all I had to do was send you a PM :lol:

Wobba
27-01-2012, 16:08
My AVO GTZ's were great, except they do leak on the front sometimes.

The AST solid top mount issue was that the big nut on the top would damage the anodised finish on the mounts themselves, as the geometry of the strut got moved about when driving.

The rears never leaked.

My current KW V2 are expensive, but the finish and reliability has been very good, still look new. They are the softest sprung coilies I've used to date, soI uprated the springs with some I had made for them, at 500lb. Probably too stiff now lol. The downside is the V2's are not cheap at near £1k a set.

Did you have any problems using your V2's with AST top mounts? I'm using the same setup and find that I only have a couple of threads to tighten the top nut, using the original nut. If I use the revised nut I can't even tighten them... Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?

My V2's are fitted with the AST's currently (just got back in from adjusting them actually lol).

Because the original nut damaged the finish, AST sent me two sets of upper mounts out for free and the new nut design to stop damaging the top mounts finish. The new nut does not have the thread far enough down inside to tighten onto the top of the strut.

Cliokongen sent me out some specially made nuts of superior design. I've only got one on though at mo as I left one side with the old damaged top and old not on as I accidentally damaged the thread on one new nut and need to helicoil it.

Yes fab, I've been away for a bit just working and playin computer games, picking up the odd part here and there to restore the old girl. It's still going like stink and making small children cry though. All good :)