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View Full Version : Is it easier to get to 900kg or 190bhp??



will.i.am.s2
21-12-2011, 23:14
Hi all, hopefuly an interesting question for you all here....is it easier to get a clio williams to 900-950kg by various forms of weight sheding or is it easier to get to around 180-190bhp? Both are going to cost about the same im guessing 8)

Ive been playing with this.....http://westfield-world.com/power-to-weight.html and its got me thinking, ive already got 168bhp per ton according to that which is impressive i think.

stevie_b
21-12-2011, 23:32
Both are going to cost about the same im guessing


Nowhere near I would say, and I have done in excess of both. You mention 950kg - this is extremely easy and would involve little expense. 900kg would not involve much expense either, if you don't mind losing a few creature comforts. 190bhp on the other hand would involve quite a lot of expense unless you can do it all yourself - the cars I can think of that have around this have had quite a lot of money spent on them, apart from a few talented people who have added turbos for good power with little cost, but if you are still thinking of sprinting/hillclimbing then this would move you out of the original class. Mine is around 250bhp/tonne and the weight saving has been quite extreme without massive expense, whereas the engine is by no means the best out there but has cost too much!

will.i.am.s2
21-12-2011, 23:49
Yikes 250bhp/tonne :o I bet shes a beast.

This one is fast enough as it is for the road @ 162bhp (according to a RR print off anyway) I would just like to see it with around 180-190bhp/tonne which realy shouldnt be to hard? It can keep up with some ridiculous cars as it is but im not happy with just keeping up if you get me :wink:

Could do with finding a weigh bridge to get the weight of it as it is first as stats from the handbooks/internet are wildly different so that would be a good starting point. If i could extract around 170bhp from the engine and lighten it i should acheive my goal.

Red Cloud
21-12-2011, 23:51
Considering the williams weight of 990 kg include 3/4 tank of fuel, all you have to do is run with £5 worth of fuel and your at 950 kg. Pretty easy really.

will.i.am.s2
22-12-2011, 00:36
Thanks red cloud i did not know that :D

sideways danny
22-12-2011, 02:18
you will not, no matter what you try, get past 175bhp on standard injectors, and they'll be leaning out at the top end before that! with bigger injectors and some significantly wild cams you might hit 185 with good mapping.

TooSkive
22-12-2011, 09:11
Most powerful lightly tuned car on here seems to belong to Jay S, which is 180bhp. As far as RR figures go Dyno Dynamics always seem to be about bang on the money.

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42389&highlight=

stevie_b
22-12-2011, 11:48
Considering the williams weight of 990 kg include 3/4 tank of fuel, all you have to do is run with £5 worth of fuel and your at 950 kg. Pretty easy really.

This is a good point if you are thinking of sprinting it as you won't use much on each 'run' - I used to run mine with the fuel light on at all times and then just top it up with cans after the event in order to be able to drive home/to a garage. The Clio seemed to have a pickup that could cope with that, whereas the Pug Mi16 I also ran had to have more than half a tank of fuel in it if it was to avoid fuel surge on the corners.

Red Cloud
22-12-2011, 13:04
Stating the horpower figures on these cars is pointless because it doesnt take into account the drivability of the engine or how well it uses the power.

Yeah sure, some cars on here are as powerful as the group a clios back in the day, but i bet they are not set up nearly so well, are not as strong and not as reliable driven flat out for stage after stage. Thats the difference between the resources of renault, and an amateur.

Evogone has previously stated that his gearbox was a bigger jump in performance than 50 bhp, and i agree.

And martin proved that a decent standard blue printed engine, some decent strippage, slicks, and a decent driver, will allow you to be faster than 90% of cars in 90% of circumstances.

There are plenty of people on this and other forums that have spent 5k easily on their engine. For that price they could have just fitted a sequential dog box. Car would have been more fun and faster in my opinion. I am suprised no one snapped up ktecs sequential gearbox, it was an absolute performance bargain at 4.5k.

TooSkive
22-12-2011, 13:37
It's entirely dependent on what people use the car for and want out of it. For a track car, handling mods, brakes and sticky rubber will be of more benefit for sure.

Other people are happy with the handling aspect and simply want a bit (or a lot) more power.

What kind of power and torque can these dog/sequential boxes handle?

robi1000
22-12-2011, 13:40
Thats the difference between the resources of renault, and an amateur.

Well, I wouldn't say that you can't compare Renault Sport and a good non factory effort (Automeca or Oreca Motorsport proved this numerous times). At Renault Sport there's always a small group of people working on the development of a race car. With all the support people (purchasing people, group management,...) it's usually about 30-40 people. What I'm trying to say is that there are actually just a few (let's say 5) people directly working on the car (let's say Clio Gr.A) and they are enthusiasts just like us. Also engines are not assembled by Renault Sport.

Well, it happens to the best too ;):
http://s7.mojalbum.com/10833367_17499028_19296966/clio-gr-a/19296966.jpg


There are plenty of people on this and other forums that have spent 5k easily on their engine. For that price they could have just fitted a sequential dog box. Car would have been more fun = TRUE and faster = TRUE in my opinion. Could it run for 20000km without a major rebuild? NO! I am suprised no one snapped up ktecs sequential gearbox, it was an absolute performance bargain = TRUE at 4.5k.

Red Cloud
22-12-2011, 18:54
There is a myth that dogboxes some how need rebuilding every few thousand miles and it just isnt true.

A standard JC014 will easily do 150 000 miles on the road. The dog box has stronger internals and like for like it could do the same mileage.

Where people get confused is they compare a standard road box in a road car with a competition box in a competition car. Yeah in competition car a dog box may need rebulding after 1500 km, but the road box would have blown up after 100. Put them both in a road car and there is just no mechanical reason why a dog box wouldnt outlast a standard synchromesh variant.

And then when you do need to rebuild it, mechanically they are much simpler and therefore cheaper to maintain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBk1D7MBwUQ

Red Cloud
22-12-2011, 19:00
It's entirely dependent on what people use the car for and want out of it. For a track car, handling mods, brakes and sticky rubber will be of more benefit for sure.

Other people are happy with the handling aspect and simply want a bit (or a lot) more power.

What kind of power and torque can these dog/sequential boxes handle?

Well the hewland in the maxi car could handle 270 bhp. Enough for you?

zmaster2k
22-12-2011, 22:24
What did the sodemo engines kick out?

Red Cloud
22-12-2011, 22:43
On the group a clio 16s they made 230 bhp. But that was on the standard inlet as itbs were not permitted.

The maxi cars ran 270 bhp on itbs.

Red Cloud
22-12-2011, 22:43
(ish)

2 live
23-12-2011, 00:10
And martin proved that a decent standard blue printed engine, some decent strippage, slicks, and a decent driver, will allow you to be faster than 90% of cars in 90% of circumstances.

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e8ZwNw3kNc


how quickly you change your mind rob??

robi1000
23-12-2011, 00:23
What did the sodemo engines kick out?

Depends if you were a "client" or if engine was for factory team. Client engines kicked out about 205hp and factory up to 225hp. Clio Maxi from 245hp up to 260hp in long stroke version. In the Megane Maxi which was destroked from 93mm to 90mm, up to 295hp in the from of latest Automeca evolution, but usually from 270-280hp.

Don't confuse dogbox with sequential. Dogbox could be used on the street, but there are some practical issues. Just one question for you Red Cloud... Have you ever tried side parking with sequential gearbox? Or try to have a normal conversation at 80mph (dogbox or sequential)? Ever tried to source a new SADEV driveshaft for any of the above boxes (let's say regardless of cost :lol:)?

robi1000
23-12-2011, 00:31
I know you like knitpicking, so I would like to correct myself (no edit button) and admit there were 3 questions. :D

Red Cloud
23-12-2011, 01:05
And martin proved that a decent standard blue printed engine, some decent strippage, slicks, and a decent driver, will allow you to be faster than 90% of cars in 90% of circumstances.

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e8ZwNw3kNc


how quickly you change your mind rob??

I have told you before i didnt make that video. If you ask me it has gunner's name all over it, but i ant be sure.

Red Cloud
23-12-2011, 01:07
What did the sodemo engines kick out?

Depends if you were a "client" or if engine was for factory team. Client engines kicked out about 205hp and factory up to 225hp. Clio Maxi from 245hp up to 260hp in long stroke version. In the Megane Maxi which was destroked from 93mm to 90mm, up to 295hp in the from of latest Automeca evolution, but usually from 270-280hp.

Don't confuse dogbox with sequential. Dogbox could be used on the street, but there are some practical issues. Just one question for you Red Cloud... Have you ever tried side parking with sequential gearbox? Or try to have a normal conversation at 80mph (dogbox or sequential)? Ever tried to source a new SADEV driveshaft for any of the above boxes (let's say regardless of cost :lol:)?

All sequential boxes will be dogboxes.

robi1000
23-12-2011, 01:11
Who said they are not? The difference is how you change gears. Try changing directly from 5th into 2nd on a sequential gearbox, not possible. No problem on normal dogbox (I'm sure you know very well what's the difference between the two). ;)

will.i.am.s2
25-12-2011, 00:26
Some good info here guys cheers :D

I had a dogleg gearbox on a m535i a few years back and found it hard to live with personaly. I think the best thing for my clio is to source a decent head and get it gas flowed etc so i can still use the car well its been done. Also a decent service is needed and a new exhaust system which tbh would be enough for road use and get it back to the RR stated bhp figure hopefuly. I will be cracking on with some weight saving ideas and havent ruled out doing a maxi conversion as on this particular williams it would make sence as not much point keeping it standard for a few reasons...

Red Cloud
25-12-2011, 14:32
Some good info here guys cheers :D

I had a dogleg gearbox on a m535i a few years back and found it hard to live with personaly. I think the best thing for my clio is to source a decent head and get it gas flowed etc so i can still use the car well its been done. Also a decent service is needed and a new exhaust system which tbh would be enough for road use and get it back to the RR stated bhp figure hopefuly. I will be cracking on with some weight saving ideas and havent ruled out doing a maxi conversion as on this particular williams it would make sence as not much point keeping it standard for a few reasons...

A dogleg gearbox is not the same as a dog box. One has a funny shift pattern, the other uses dog gears instead of a synchromesh to smooth the shift.

Gas flowing a head is an expensive waste of time for the gains you will get. Most of the gains from 'headwork' come from the fact that the valves are re-seated and the head is cleaned and refurbished. In fact this is where a lot of the 'gains' come from after an engine rebuild in my opinion.

A maxi conversion is a crazy idea unless you have the track widened parts. If you run standard parts you have to run massive spacers that mess up the geometry of the suspension. Plus you need 17 inch wheels that causes all sorts of handling and power problems.

My advice would be to save every penny you would be spending on this project, and get someone with years of experience on these engines (like prima racing) to rebuild and 'blueprint' the engine. Youll then have a very reliable very strong engine that is more than a match for many other cars if you add in a small amount of weight saving.

jay s
25-12-2011, 22:15
My experience : getting a mk1 down to 900kg is fairly easily and makes the car feel a touch more lively, it will involve removing most of the sound deadening, getting rid of all the seats and belts, bolts etc fit a set of buckets and harnesses, fit a set of lighter wheels and you should be around the 900kg mark, coilovers and ss maifold help hit this figure..... thats where my car is at. Tbh if i could go back i would of left the sound deadening in as after 7 years as a daily it has drove me crazy and made me slightly deaf lol

Getting a genuine 180-190bhp will require a pretty wild set of cams, headwork, bigger injectors, manifold, exh system and a decent map. as you have to go for wild cams to get the figure the idle tends to suffer, mine has to idle at about 1.3k otherwise it runs very very lumpy. its making 185bhp at the minute ( not bad for a bottom end on 175k :wink: )
itb's will also get you around that figure by fitting them alone.
Im gonna be breaking the car very very soon so it will all be for sale :D
latest rr graph:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a117/jay16v-/scan0012Large.jpg

sideways danny
25-12-2011, 22:31
Stock Cams really hold back the F7R, even with bodies, you wont may figures like that on bodies alone (not in real life)
However, I gained 25lb/ft at just under 3k by adding bodies to my cammed engine.

will.i.am.s2
03-01-2012, 21:34
Nice figures for 175k :D

Heres what mine was putting out.......bearing in mind it was 3 years ago and its had a lower millage engine put in since.


http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg300/richardswain21/IMG_0001.jpg


im going to have a good fettle with it anyway and make sure everything engine wise is tip top then go for a fresh RR test. I recon its got a bit of a special engine by the performance and pull of it all the way upto 150(on the clocks) :lol: