View Full Version : Cambelt change
andyleep
10-10-2011, 12:33
Anyone know the official Renault labour time for changing a cambelt on a Williams?
i was taking to a fella a few days ago about a williams he owned years ago and he mentioned that he got renault to do the belt.he called back to them a while after leaving the car with them he said he walked into their garage and the car was on the ramp and the engine gearbox and subframe was on the ground.i didnt ask how long they had it but he said they did the water pump aswell and the bill was something like £650.
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cash
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cashI've done about 6 timing belts all on my own cars but never took that sort of time.it usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours to do it. I'd love that sort of money for changing a belt.
sideways danny
11-10-2011, 00:40
I normally charge under £300 for a williams/valver timing belt. I say normally as there's so few standard cars that i see, i have to fine tune the price up and down a little for easier or harder jobs
acerimmer
11-10-2011, 07:52
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cashI've done about 6 timing belts all on my own cars but never took that sort of time.it usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours to do it. I'd love that sort of money for changing a belt.
bloody hell it took me and my dad about a day just to try n do it with endine in, spat dummys out and ripped out engine and did the lot much easier. took about 2-3 hours to put back in. We know now how to do it lol
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cashI've done about 6 timing belts all on my own cars but never took that sort of time.it usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours to do it. I'd love that sort of money for changing a belt.
bloody hell it took me and my dad about a day just to try n do it with endine in, spat dummys out and ripped out engine and did the lot much easier. took about 2-3 hours to put back in. We know now how to do it lolalways to it with engine in.
These cars arent really worth enough any more to justify paying main dealer servicing prices on things like a cambelt, its either DIY it or take it to a backstreet garage like Danny IMHO, nothing else makes financial sense really.
sideways danny
11-10-2011, 10:55
I'm not a backstreet garage
andyleep
11-10-2011, 11:07
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cashI've done about 6 timing belts all on my own cars but never took that sort of time.it usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours to do it. I'd love that sort of money for changing a belt.
bloody hell it took me and my dad about a day just to try n do it with endine in, spat dummys out and ripped out engine and did the lot much easier. took about 2-3 hours to put back in. We know now how to do it lolalways to it with engine in.
Really? Why?
I did a cambelt on my black valver an hour, loads of room once the engine is jacked up
These cars arent really worth enough any more to justify paying main dealer servicing prices on things like a cambelt, its either DIY it or take it to a backstreet garage like Danny IMHO, nothing else makes financial sense really.
Whether they are worth paying dealer prices for work is a matter of opinion and dependent upon personal circumstance though.
If you say that, then you have to ask if ANY car is worth taking to a main dealer.
As for the comment about sideways danny being a backstreet garage, I doubt I am alone in thinking that's a pretty petty thing to say, and I think you should apologise. You make it sound like he's running some kind of dodgy cut and shut car shop, which he is not.
no one can do a cambelt change in 1 - 2 hours on a williams. BELIEVE ME !!!!!
Its a good days work if you have all the tools and everything isnt seized solid.
I've done the cambelt on my valver in an hour.
Car was jacked up, engine was jacked up, covers off, old belt cut off, new belt on, back down again, bosh.
sideways danny
11-10-2011, 14:10
that's only a belt though, not tensioner, idler etc. You wont go those in an hour. Fact.
I did wade's on the imperial in about 3.5 hours but it's non PAS so easier
Yeah i know, i was just sayin' the belt can be done really quickly DIY styleee
sideways danny
11-10-2011, 14:22
not really much point in doing it though if you're cutting those corners
It's not cutting corners if they've already been done :)
Of course it's different from car to car but I know my engine and the tensioners were good. Only replaced the belt because the top engine mount snapped and damaged the cambelt.
I'm not a backstreet garage
FLOL @ that
Would love to hear your definition of a backstreet garage that doesnt include a one man band working from a farm unit and a mobile phone :shock:
Im sure you are perfectly capable of doing a cambelt though, so wasnt meaning it as a derogatory term, I can do one piece of cake and ive no interest in ever being a mechanic, so im sure you can if thats what you are doing for a living its not exactly difficult.
These cars arent really worth enough any more to justify paying main dealer servicing prices on things like a cambelt, its either DIY it or take it to a backstreet garage like Danny IMHO, nothing else makes financial sense really.
Whether they are worth paying dealer prices for work is a matter of opinion and dependent upon personal circumstance though.
If you say that, then you have to ask if ANY car is worth taking to a main dealer.
The only time it really makes financial sense to maintain a main dealer service history is when its a newer car that requires specialist equipment to work on and more important where maintaining residuals rely on people seeing dealer stamps.
For older cars most of the time the main dealer wouldnt have many people working there with good working knowledge of them
As for the comment about sideways danny being a backstreet garage, I doubt I am alone in thinking that's a pretty petty thing to say, and I think you should apologise. You make it sound like he's running some kind of dodgy cut and shut car shop, which he is not.
I dont think that backstreet garage implies dishonesty automatically like you are saying.
To me a backstreet garage is a small garage with few staff, limited equipment and a restricted range of services, I would have though that a perfectly valid description of what Danny is doing.
Thats fine for these simple old cars though, someone who works on them reguarly has plenty to offer without needing to be in the context of a main dealer. As per my reply above, im sure he is perfectly capable of doing a cambelt on a clio.
It's not cutting corners if they've already been done :)
Of course it's different from car to car but I know my engine and the tensioners were good. Only replaced the belt because the top engine mount snapped and damaged the cambelt.
Fairly specific set of circumstances TBH so unlikely to be relevant to many people wanting a cambelt change.
The moment I saw what you wrote I asked the people in my office what the term 'backstreet garage' represents to them, their replies were 'dodgy' 'shady' 'dishonest'.
I agree with them.
'Sorry' is much easier to type than all the waffle you wrote to justify your poor choice of words!
The moment I saw what you wrote I asked the people in my office what the term 'backstreet garage' represents to them, their replies were 'dodgy' 'shady' 'dishonest'.
I agree with them.
'Sorry' is much easier to type than all the waffle you wrote to justify your poor choice of words!
Well to clear up any confusion I dont have any reason to believe Danny is dishonest. But I would have thought that was already obvious by the fact that the first mention I made of him in this thread was to suggest him as a place people could go for a much cheaper than renault cambelt change.
something like 8 hours labour by the book time???? i think???? i had my done by a renault specialist and was charged £400 cashI've done about 6 timing belts all on my own cars but never took that sort of time.it usually takes me 1 and a half to 2 hours to do it. I'd love that sort of money for changing a belt.
bloody hell it took me and my dad about a day just to try n do it with endine in, spat dummys out and ripped out engine and did the lot much easier. took about 2-3 hours to put back in. We know now how to do it lolalways to it with engine in.
Really? Why?Yes, because i can.I have never even thought it would be easier to remove the engine to replace the belt or the pulleys.it's really not a difficult job.
If you are changing the belt on a car you have just bought, its actually quite a good idea to pull the engine out I reckon, can do head gasket and pumps etc at the same time then, so it depends if you know the history and only want to do the belt or if you want to really freshen the engine up.
The moment you have to do more or less anything else as well with the belt, it gets to the stage that the couple of hours to take the engine out starts looking like a good investment time wise as then every job is trivial once you have the engine out the car and have total access to it.
Its a good days work if you have all the tools and everything isnt seized solid.
6 hours max, thats taking engine out/refitting.
got it down to an hour and a bit to remove an engine when I had the clio :lol:
mk2wills
14-11-2011, 21:09
does anyone have a guide on doing it in situ then?sorry im new to the forum and relaise not good that i post in here straight away but hey ho!its a williams 2 i have(f7r)Ive done the water pump myself but i really cant see how it would be easy to do the belt in situ with so little room to work in!Any specialist tools needed?Im doing the belt and tensioner/idler pulley
a rough guide would be disconnect the battery jack car up jack engine up abit take off top engine mount remove drivers headlight loosen alternator belt remove the belt covers you will need to jack the engine up and down several times to remove the belt covers.when u get the top cover off to reveal the cam wheels there is a timing mark on the front of each cam wheel line those up with timing marks on the engine top rocker cover then you will need to lock the crankshaft remove the bung that is under the engine serial number plate you can get at it if you lay at the front of the car and reach up between the engine and the subframe when you remove the bung you need to insert a locking pin i use a quarter drive socket extension bar grinded down just enough to get it in the hole and into the crank its handy if you get someone to push it in while you turn the engine when its in the marks on the cam wheel should line up with the rocker cover marks and the engine should not turn now loosen the tensioner and remove the belt.its 11.45 and im off to bed.
fabulicious
15-11-2011, 10:31
I've done mine and I will never do it again.
If someone quoted me £300 to do it I'd take that offer any day of the week, especially someone with good feedback, experience and proper garage tools.
mk2wills
15-11-2011, 16:34
was it that bad?Looks a right job to do to me.Whats it like changing the idler and tensioner pulleys?
fabulicious
15-11-2011, 17:14
Let me put it this way to you. People come on and say what a piss easy job it is and it can be done in an hour.
If they claim they are doing it in an hour they either cant read the time or cant keep track of it OR are basically doing it without correct alignment tools and not using a torque wrench, in which case when the next person to own the car comes to do work on it they will find threaded bolts all over the shop.
What is often not considered is that every car has a different history. Some have been molested, some never touched and others looked after.
IF your car falls into either of the first 2 categories then be prepared for;
1)A rusted/seized on crankshaft pulley bolt.
2)Threaded bolts.
3)Incorrect timing
4)Very likely idlers have not been tensioned correctly and therefore the pulleys themselves will squeal after a few runs.
5) People tend to think that the oil sump is made of iron. Oh yes just jack it up on the sump and it'll be right.:roll: Forgetting by doing this your putting stress on the battery mount pin and so fourth.
I could go on but will not bother.
The fact is a person who has experience in this task will have come across many different scenarios and IS prepared. If he is really good he/she may even suggest doing other jobs while your at it.
For £300 even £400 it's a no brainer. You dont know how lucky you are in the UK to have relatively easy access to specialist's.
But nobody will listen to what I say and these cars will keep turning up on this forum with on-going problems because of the roadside mechanics we are!
mk2wills
15-11-2011, 18:54
i didnt debate it would take a while and im not one for cutting corners either, hence me asking just to gauge what sort of a job it is.Ive done numerous belts and chains(vw, vr6)and yes they have all been different.Just a bit of a newbie to renault stuff thats all.
Its easy to forget on a forum that some people find relatively easy tasks harder then other people would.
I guess i just wanted to know if they can be done in situ without the need for any real specialist tools to remove the tensioner and idler as there isnt very much space between the inner arch and the engine
lol @ some of the above.....
cambelt can be done in situ, with tensioners, in about 2-3 hours. its not easy, but compared to some of the things on newer cars, and older ones for that matter, its not overly hard either
iv never heard the pullies themselves squeel, but i have heard the belts when done too tight. ;)
finding the timing is out would be noticeable before you start the job.
seized bolts etc are NOTHING to do with not using correct tools. seized bolts can occur at any time. threads open to the rigours of our climate, constant expansion/contraction through heat/cooling down etc.
the way some people go on you would think these cars are basically a garage only repair. they arent. if you can pick a spanner up, and know which way to turn it to loosen/tighten bolts/nuts then you could do pretty much anything on these cars.
wobba, most new cars would have to go to main dealers. simply because of the electrickery inside. i dare say someone like danny wouldnt have all the fault readers, specialist equipment to work on something like a koenigsegg for example.
sideways danny
16-11-2011, 01:03
koenigsegg would still be EOBD compliant ;) you're right to some degree though, but thats a specialist vehicle of another sort entirely. I specialise in french hatchbacks
exactly. as above tho. a back street garage to me is a none dealership garage. ppl like awt, gdi, ktec are just cowboys. not even worthy of back street garage status. which is what chip was meaning to me.
We are not scaring you off or saying its a main dealer only job rusted / siezed fasteners is the biggest problem. Even on cars that everything comes straight off its very hard getting assess to undo them.
Some cars might not even have all the middle and lower guards fitted which protect and cover the cam & alternator belt. But would you be happy running without the covers on????
Its not a quick job, I would allow a weekend to do it. You will find you will need a few new tools aswell as getting acsess is a pain. My tools were all too big till i bought a few new ones.
Also get a locking tool for the camshafts / or make your own out of a bit of bent plate. Do it right.
fabulicious
16-11-2011, 13:23
I guess where i'm coming from to answer your question can it be done in situ,
Of course it can, but do yourself a big favour and buy an engine lift. Today its the belts,tomorrow the clutch and next year the gearbox. Each job according to the manual is engine out. That's a fact with the clio.
mk2wills
16-11-2011, 16:22
i do have an engine lift.gearbox has been rebuilt too fitted with new clutch.ive done the water pump the other day.#Does anyone know where i can get the special tool to tension up the pulley?or anyone got a pic so i can make one up?
koenigsegg would still be EOBD compliant ;) you're right to some degree though, but thats a specialist vehicle of another sort entirely. I specialise in french hatchbacks
but would you know what the fault codes meant?? i know most manufacturers wont divulge their codes etc to the gen. public/none dealershpip trade for a while.
hence the needing to take it back to dealerships. its how they monopolise the trade.
EOBD codes yes he would and he would most likely have access to its live data.
sideways danny
16-11-2011, 21:16
EOBD has standardised codes. It's a manufacturing requirement since 2001/2
There's always more than 1 way to skin a cat. Had a mondeo ST in the other day which I didn't have a specific key for, so reverted to EOBD
so any car you would be able to know what was wrong with it if it had an electrical fault because of the EOBD?
and youd know all the possible electrical problems for each code??
and what each code would flag up i.e 1 fault can bring up 4 or 5+ possible problems.
is this standardised throughout all marques now??
oh and........genuine question btw. before someone thinks im trying to troll/disprove/belittle/cause an argument.
maybe i should put this disclaimer on all my posts??
:roll:
EOBD codes yes, but think of eobd as a monitoring system overseeing the "main" ecu system, but aswell MOST manufacturers codes can be cracked as they use p1 or p2 codes which can be replaced by p0. Plus no codes tell you whats wrong they just point you the right way all codes should be verified by live data or used to verify other tests, multimeters and waveforms are still the best diagnostic tools. I thought your questions were very valid aswell bud in the context of the topic just backing Danny up . Thanks ANDREW.
fabulicious
16-11-2011, 22:41
Does anyone know where i can get the special tool to tension up the pulley?or anyone got a pic so i can make one up?
www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/vault/JE/SERVICE/SPECIAL_TOOLS.pdf
sideways danny
17-11-2011, 00:02
EOBD codes yes, but think of eobd as a monitoring system overseeing the "main" ecu system, but aswell MOST manufacturers codes can be cracked as they use p1 or p2 codes which can be replaced by p0. Plus no codes tell you whats wrong they just point you the right way all codes should be verified by live data or used to verify other tests, multimeters and waveforms are still the best diagnostic tools. I thought your questions were very valid aswell bud in the context of the topic just backing Danny up . Thanks ANDREW.
exactly this. It's a deliberately standardised system. Not free from glitches, and there's a lot of code descriptions that are very generic. It's better to have manufacture specific data. Snap on for instance use a variety of keys that plug in to the lead and change the pin designation, the tool asks for a different key when you select a vehicle through the menu's.
You can tell more with live data than with codes really anyway, no end of lambda sensors on cars that are old and slow causing poor economy, yet still functioning enough for no codes to show. Look at a live voltage plot and it's lazy and non reactive
Not saying I'd want to touch a koenigsegg by the way, it's probably a total nightmare, be worse to work on than any of the TVR's or Lotus's etc I've done in the past
fabulicious
17-11-2011, 10:18
Based on what I have seen loitering around my bro's garage :D the diagnostics appear to be more of a mechanics aid rather than a definitive answer to a problem, even the manufacturer specific ones.
The biggest nightmare the mechanics face is when a car or bike comes in that has non-standard equipment fitted or has been tampered with by the owner.
To say that as long as you can use a set of spanners you can fix anything on a car is false and mis-leading.
A mechanic still needs to be analytical and use his own judgement on what may be causing a problem with a car or bike for that matter. He also needs to be able to re-coil which is an art in itself.
So even in this day and age of computers and gadgets you still need a gift or be skilled to do this job and hats off to anyone who makes a living from it.
EOBD codes yes, but think of eobd as a monitoring system overseeing the "main" ecu system, but aswell MOST manufacturers codes can be cracked as they use p1 or p2 codes which can be replaced by p0. Plus no codes tell you whats wrong they just point you the right way all codes should be verified by live data or used to verify other tests, multimeters and waveforms are still the best diagnostic tools. I thought your questions were very valid aswell bud in the context of the topic just backing Danny up . Thanks ANDREW.
aye mate i know 1 fault could bring up several diff codes, and then its a case of working your way thru them or using the knowledge you have to rectify the prob. its like most new cars have seperate 'ecus' even just for the leccy windows etc. things have moved on a hell of a lot since i was working in the garages a 1/4 of a century ago lol. bring back a dizzy, points n condenser lol.
but again, i know certain things just cant be done by a garage with the generic diagnostic equipment. even some dash bulb replacements in certain cars need dealer specific resets of faults etc. or so im picking up.
Absolutely agree with you bud , and its only going to get worse with the mot test looking like its going down the eobd route aswell :( .
wont be long before they start doing away with cams as well and going the hydro/air pressure route of operating the valves i dont think lol. cambelts/timing chains will be a thing of the past then
This is why I luv teh old Williams :D
All practical common sense...Frenchy logic :)
aye, all common sense really. and if you get stuck no doubt someone here will have cured the prob your suffering. as i said, if you know how to use a spanner, you can do pretty much anything on these cars. there are easier cars to work on, but then theres a damn sight more that are harder to work on too.
fabulicious
18-11-2011, 14:25
So the moral of this topic is, if you have a set of spanners do a "FIAT" on it. (fix it again tommy):lol:
If you dont have spanners take it to a garage as they are the only ones who will gain any enjoyment out of doing it as they will get paid for it. :wink:
think its more...... if you have common sense, a little mechanical knowledge, and a soket set its fairly easy to do yourself.
if you have 3 thumbs, and 12 fingers, take it to a garage ;)
I normally charge under £300 for a williams/valver timing belt. I say normally as there's so few standard cars that i see, i have to fine tune the price up and down a little for easier or harder jobs
the timing marks will all be the same, so how come thered b a diff in price? you remove/replace the same parts to do the job. nothings diff.
fabulicious
19-11-2011, 15:49
think its more...... if you have common sense, a little mechanical knowledge, and a soket set its fairly easy to do yourself.
if you have 3 thumbs, and 12 fingers, take it to a garage ;)
I'd of thought an extra thumb and 2 fingers would be a godsend as it would help you to hold the cam in place whilst your tightening the belt! :lol:
sideways danny
19-11-2011, 20:44
I normally charge under £300 for a williams/valver timing belt. I say normally as there's so few standard cars that i see, i have to fine tune the price up and down a little for easier or harder jobs
the timing marks will all be the same, so how come thered b a diff in price? you remove/replace the same parts to do the job. nothings diff.
easier on a car with the PAS removed for example, so it's cheaper
luk3matth3ws
19-11-2011, 21:04
Looking to do mine soon but not sure whether its worth paying someone else and avoiding the hassle, autodata says 4.90 hours
sideways danny
20-11-2011, 01:35
Well if you want it done, you couldn't really be any closer, I'm about 2 minutes from Black cat
mk2wills
20-11-2011, 17:54
just finished one myself.very tricky to get in and about lots of lifting the engine hoist lowering it lifting it blah blah.took me 5 and a bit hours thats to change the belt, idler and tensioner
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