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dkrevs
02-09-2011, 21:23
I have some suspension questions and I need some help. For those who don't know, quick current spec of my car:
-3 door non 16V Clio shell
-1.4 engine
-850kg
-front suspension: new R19 wishbones, 23mm R19 ARB, 30mm Eibach lowering springs, stock shocks with drilled holes for camber adjustment, all new bushes
-rear suspension: completely stock(has a very "thin" ARB on it as standard), just lowered to match front
-15x6.5J wheels(R19 turbines) with 195/50 R15 T1R tires.

I'm quite like how the car transformed with all the mods so far but I think there is still a lot of room for improvement. I have one trackday booked at the end of month. Well the track is more like a gokart track but it's okay for the first time. Here is a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/user/UrbanDol#p/u/0/uNnuJVKxS8I

I have now purchased new Clio 1.4 front shocks(my current ones are totally FUBAR'd), and I have a Peugeot 405 Mi16 front ARB which I intend to retrofit on rear beam. It is 21mm thick and I refurbished it and bought new bushes and drop links for it(pics later).

With words it's hard to describe how my car currently drives but I'll try my best. It's a harder than standard in front but again far away from some serious spring rate. In small "closed" corners I always understeer if I go too fast but in other faster corners it's pretty balanced with a slight touch of oversteer especially in the corner exit.

I suppose when I'll fit my rear ARB the car will oversteer too much which will result in slower lap time. There is an option I fit 16V/Williams/172 springs on the front, which I'm sure are harder spring rate than my Eibachs so that would balance the car to more neutral, but it would affect my ride height as it would be back to stock. Now when it comes to racing I don't care what my car looks like as long as it's fast, but will it be really faster with harder spring rate to match the rear ARB but with higher ride height? How much can the ride height affect the cars handling? Any other suggestions on my car and suspension setup? Please bear in mind the weight difference in comparison to other Clios(Williams, 16V), which have much heavier engines.

Thanks for all the help in advance,

David

Wobba
04-09-2011, 11:27
Williams springs and dampers, even with higher ride height, will give a much more performance orientated handling. If you want to keep the ride height low at the front, just get some Willy sport springs from somewhere, GSF used to do a -35mm spring for the valver which I am sure would fit.

You could just get some coilovers.

On standard willy suspension, you will probably find it washes wide on tight bends where you get on the gas hard, understeer is normal for that setup, you have to meter out the power accordingly to control it.

For your lighter car you wont need as stiff springs or dampers, even OEM Willy shocks will make a big difference.

You have uprated the front ARB yea?

I remember driving my 22k mile 1.4RT back to back with my almost new tungsten valver yeeaaars ago and it was like night and day with the difference in handling.

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 12:18
Yeah, the front ARB is same as Willy. The thing with cheap lowering springs is that they're are in most cases lower spring rate than original items. :?

Offtopic: Few days ago I tried how hard is the Williams with GAZ coilovers, and it's really hard. Spring rate on them is 275lbs IIRC. Is this 275lbs/inch or 275lbs/cm?

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 12:43
Few pics of the refurbished ARB:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8545/p1010384eu.jpg
I bought Valver ARB bushes, they fit perfectly! :D
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4001/p1010385o.jpg
And new powerty spec shocks:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8013/p1010386m.jpg
I'm still waiting for ARB links I bought off ebay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMART-FRONT-STABILISER-ANTI-ROLL-LINK-ROD-BAR-S2442-/150442548988?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2307131efc

Wobba
04-09-2011, 12:45
Yeah, the front ARB is same as Willy. The thing with cheap lowering springs is that they're are in most cases lower spring rate than original items. :?

Offtopic: Few days ago I tried how hard is the Williams with GAZ coilovers, and it's really hard. Spring rate on them is 275lbs IIRC. Is this 275lbs/inch or 275lbs/cm?

When you drive a stiffer sprung car than you are used too, it will seem uber stiff at first.

Probably /inch.

Useful charts can be viewed here if you have Excel:

http://www.nitron.co.uk/products_springs.htm

The lbs/inch is only part of the story. I run 500lb/inch on 60mm I/D springs. They feel about the same as the AVO 350lb's, which I think were 2.25 inch I/D. I think both makes of spring are 170mm free length.

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 12:45
Does anyone know the stock spring rates for any of these cars:
Clio 16V(Valver), Clio Williams, Clio 172/182 Cup or non Cup.

Cheers

David

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 12:53
Yeah, the front ARB is same as Willy. The thing with cheap lowering springs is that they're are in most cases lower spring rate than original items. :?

Offtopic: Few days ago I tried how hard is the Williams with GAZ coilovers, and it's really hard. Spring rate on them is 275lbs IIRC. Is this 275lbs/inch or 275lbs/cm?

When you drive a stiffer sprung car than you are used too, it will seem uber stiff at first.

Probably /inch.

Useful charts can be viewed here if you have Excel:

http://www.nitron.co.uk/products_springs.htm

The lbs/inch is only part of the story. I run 500lb/inch on 60mm I/D springs. They feel about the same as the AVO 350lb's, which I think were 2.25 inch I/D. I think both makes of spring are 170mm free length.
Only wondering beacuse we talked about this yesterday with Robi and some other guy who owns a Civic(6.gen) and he has 14kg/mm spring rate at front and 10kg/mm at rear or something similar to this.
If I calculate this to lbs/inch he has 782lbs springs at front, but that's certainly not the case, I mean it just isn't logical. Robi has 275lbs and his Williams is stiffer than Civic or just about there somewhere.
If I calculate to lbs/cm I get 308lbs which sounds much more possible.

volymmannen
04-09-2011, 14:26
want to know a little more about the 405 ARB,have you seen this used before on a clio rear axle, how long is it between the mounting holes, got an idea to fit one to my R5

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 15:03
No, I'm pretty sure no one else did this before(on a Clio). I saw it about a year ago when Robi and Madic(owner of the mental BX) scrapped the 405 Mi16 for parts. When I saw it it was still attached to the car and I thought it could be retro fitted to my Clio and they gave it to me for free, it would otherwise go with the car on scrap yard. I think it could be adopted to fit the 5 aswell. I'm not such expert in Peugeots so I'll ask Mandic next time I see him which other 405's also have this kind of ARB, Mi16 is after all a rare car. IIRC stevie_b has owned/owns various 405s, maybe he knows more about this.

dkrevs
04-09-2011, 16:26
And it's aprox. 98cm between mounting holes.

MAXIBOY
04-09-2011, 23:24
works maxi,s did it years ago

dkrevs
05-09-2011, 07:44
works maxi,s did it years ago
Did you use exactly 405 one?

MAXIBOY
05-09-2011, 20:21
no mate not me but the works cars ran additional anti roll bars

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/123maxiboy/b3484507.jpg

and some lesser models had them fitted as standard

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e15/123maxiboy/PR-1260525.jpg

there you go

dkrevs
05-09-2011, 21:34
Thanks. Yeah, I already have the powerty spec one that is shown in the pic above(15,5mm), but it's not enough. :lol:

volymmannen
06-09-2011, 06:41
Thanks. Yeah, I already have the powerty spec one that is shown in the pic above(15,5mm), but it's not enough. :lol:

Wrong X= 26mm, 28mm or 30mm 8)

volymmannen
06-09-2011, 06:44
Thanks. Yeah, I already have the powerty spec one that is shown in the pic above(15,5mm), but it's not enough. :lol:

Wrong X= 26mm, 28mm or 30mm 8)
Depends on what picture you refers to :oops:

dkrevs
06-09-2011, 07:16
The second picture in the MAXIBOY's reply. Those Clio MAXI ARB's must be rare as rocking horse shit! :D

cliorod
07-09-2011, 13:31
The first picture of MAXIBOYS :wink:
I sold a modified Williams rear beam complete with a proper :D :D Grp."A" rear ARB, for £250 :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: earlier this year to someone on here (apologies I forgot his name).Maybe I should have kept it :( :( :( :( .
It made the rear work just like a "roller skate" !.To be honest with decent shockers on the back,and unless you are to are using it on smooth tarmac,I would not bother.
Rod

dkrevs
08-09-2011, 14:12
New day, new parts.
Drop links arrived.
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8959/p1010387di.jpg
They'll be mated to the ARB like this.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/2559/p1010388im.jpg
And clamps which will hold the ARB on the rear beam.
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/294/p1010389sp.jpg

volymmannen
08-09-2011, 19:32
And it's aprox. 98cm between mounting holes.
not more than 98, thats a narrow car

dkrevs
08-09-2011, 19:34
I don't quite get what did you want to say? Can you explain please?

volymmannen
09-09-2011, 18:29
I don't quite get what did you want to say? Can you explain please?
the total length