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There is a really nice write up in EVO magazine for their long term Williams. This month is a review about a 1000 mile trek all over the place, including a track day at Spa.
The car is looking good with it's refurbished alloys.
Coffee Mug
26-06-2011, 23:03
In an article i read the other day he was saying his Diesel Modeo was a faster car.
http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Stephen-Dobie/blogs/index.cfm/2011/6/3/Converting-to-diesel
Recent back-to-back blasts on the roads in Evo Towers' back garden between my Clio Williams and a 2.2-litre diesel Mondeo revealed that the impressive pace of a well sorted hot hatch, one which still feels quick 15 years after it stopped production, struggles to match that of a decent diesel.
Absolute bollocks.
Coffee Mug
26-06-2011, 23:23
Diesel Modeo 0-60 : 8.4
Clio Williams 0-60 : 7.1
Diesel Modeo weight : 1600 kg
Clio Williams Weight : 990 kg
He also states that the Modeo 'probably using half the fuel'. Which is easy to disprove with a quick look at the MPG figures for the modeo which are 45 mpg combined. So driving it flat out to keep up with a Clio Williams you will probably be getting 30, if that. You probably get close to that in the Clio.
Cant be arsed to find the 0-100 because its obvious the Modeo is much slower and not much better on fuel because it is FAT and HEAVY and has NO REVS and LONG GEARS. Like all rubbish diesels.
theweekendhaslanded
26-06-2011, 23:40
Who thought of comparing a Clio Williams against a brand new Fuct Mondeo? Utter B*****
A petrol head is a petrol head because petrol heads love petrol, you cant find excitement from a Diesel. I have a family diesel and thats about it - yes it returns 48-52 mpg and its remapped to about 165bhp but its not exciting, the only time I get excited is when I'm towing a broken Williams on a car transporter mainly because its got loads of torque!
My Msport 320d is quick cross country than a Williams....
Coffee Mug
27-06-2011, 09:57
My Msport 320d is quick cross country than a Williams....
Please list the Clio Williams that you have owned below.
Coffee Mug
27-06-2011, 09:57
C1io Williams
Why do they have any reason to be biased - none. Just have to accept that there are much better cars around these days. The Williams isn't a quick car and a 2.2 mondeo is no slouch.
ooohhhh no i can see this ending in tears :lol:
Just remember lads the Williams Evo tested may have been a dog and never serviced!
im sure all "your" cars are much faster :lol:
It's interesting though, the latest report mentions how the Willy is not much slower than the Clio 200 round Spa.
Coffee Mug
27-06-2011, 13:43
Why do they have any reason to be biased - none. Just have to accept that there are much better cars around these days. The Williams isn't a quick car and a 2.2 mondeo is no slouch.
But the facts are that it is slower in every respect and Evo said it was quicker. Perhaps you could find some data to support his position?
Also he clearly bent the truth with the MPG.
ollie16v
27-06-2011, 14:26
Its like comparing chalk and cheese really and no matter how nice you paint the diesel picture it can never live up to the drive of a petrol car, and never come close to a performance petrol car. I have never thought of the Williams as being a fast car in terms of off the lights pace but that was never its intention or point. As he says the Mondeo has half the handling so in my book that is a long way short and a testament to how well Renault developed the car all those years ago. :wink:
Coffee Mug
27-06-2011, 17:34
Exactly,
It is not as if you could even say 'well the Modeo is less fun, but still faster'
Because in ever single respect, it is slower than the Clio.
Dude, its the opinion of one person (the writer).... who cares what he thinks?
chill out 8)
I think 0-60 is irrelevant. Diesels are always very slow off the line. Its 60-100 which is important. Once rolling the mondeo I'd say would be quicker. It's no disrespect - my friend has a modern Audi diesel and it's unreal between 60 and a 100 just doesn't let up - my trophy isn't that quick.
To notice a difference in rolling performance between cars you need to be comparing a skyline to a micra - similar performance cars like the Williams and mondeo diesel will be down to power delivery. The diesel will always have more up top - just due to the torque. It's always going to get better mpg to - I agree with his opinion.
Ps - is this diesel the mondeo st 155? They have 155 bhp and 270 lbs of torque. It's not hard to see why it's quicker with those stats is it.
Coffee Mug
28-06-2011, 12:16
Dude, its the opinion of one person (the writer).... who cares what he thinks?
chill out 8)
Because just as he has a a right to publish whatever he likes and hold an opinion, i too have a right to hold an opinion, question his facts and figures and criticise the work if it is of poor standard.
You see that is what the internet is about. The old system of media involved a one way flow of information from media to public. Now the information flows both ways, and the establishment doesnt like that as it allows normal people to question and criticise the mistakes and lies of the establishment press.
If he doesnt want to be criticised, then i suggest he writes better articles.
Coffee Mug
28-06-2011, 12:34
I think 0-60 is irrelevant. Diesels are always very slow off the line. Its 60-100 which is important. Once rolling the mondeo I'd say would be quicker. It's no disrespect - my friend has a modern Audi diesel and it's unreal between 60 and a 100 just doesn't let up - my trophy isn't that quick.
To notice a difference in rolling performance between cars you need to be comparing a skyline to a micra - similar performance cars like the Williams and mondeo diesel will be down to power delivery. The diesel will always have more up top - just due to the torque. It's always going to get better mpg to - I agree with his opinion.
Ps - is this diesel the mondeo st 155? They have 155 bhp and 270 lbs of torque. It's not hard to see why it's quicker with those stats is it.
Diesels are slow off the line because they have NO REVS. You have to change gear too many times the petrol car just disappears into the distance. The only way a diesel can be fast is when you have enough speed to use a long gear. Which is why people always harp on about the 60-100 times, because it is the only place a diesel car is fast, thanks to the torque in the long gears.
Plus you have provided no data, just opinion, and do not even seen to know which car it is, So your reply is just as sloppy as the origunal article. Why dont you go and find the 60-100 times and prove me wrong?
Plus i like the way you have quoted the power and torque and coveniently left of the weight of the car. 1600 kg. It needs that torque because it is so heavy. Light cars like the Williams dont have much torque (they arnt meant to pull things) 270 lb / ft is more torque as an F1 car. Are you going to tell me that a guy in a mondeo can 60-100 faster than an RB7?
Reapeat - light cars dont need high torque figure
talkingfish
28-06-2011, 14:24
erm... I own both, a Williams 1 and a new shape 2.2 diesel mondeo. The mondeo, whilst heavy has 175bhp but a mammoth 420N/m of torque with overboost... In gear, the mondeo will leave the Williams for dead, but off the line the Williams is far quicker.
A to B if the road was twisty mondeo has lovely steering and handles superbly but I think I would be fractionally quicker in the Williams....
Lol - I have driven both. The mondeo I found to be quicker from 40 to 100 as that was all I got to.
I also watched a Elise drag against the st155 - the st was trying to overtake and couldnt get past. Tbf - I don't know what Elise it was, but can't see any being slow.
Have you driven one or is it all Internet bullshit.
Got to agree with talkingfish, I would never have considered a diesel until I happened to do some work for citroen + got to drive various td's. There are still days when I miss the low down grunt available early in the corner giving you a great head start onto the straight bits that my old 1.9td zx gave me and it was not a heavy car. I notice the huge improvement of the modern diesel as its hard work to keep them at bay nowadays if they have a go at 'one of those williams they used to be fast didnt they' . I think group 17 insurance is way over the top for the actual performance nowadays but as we all know they aint the cheapest things to repair. The thing is they are light and responsive so are capable of changing direction very quickly so you dont need to slow down so much through the corners and they are very forgiving if you drive them smoothly so are still a great tool under the right conditions. I cant get to scotland in under a tank and wish they had a decent tall 5th on a long trip but I still love the stupid thing and waste shitloads of money on it. Every now and again its worth its weight in gold, ie passing a DB 9 and keeping it behind on many twisties and then laughing as he nearly stuffs it trying to get passed on too short a straight! :-)
It's interesting though, the latest report mentions how the Willy is not much slower than the Clio 200 round Spa.
Thats exactly what the original willy excels at wobba the kart like handling between 85 and 115 but most of us dont get the chance or have not got the training to have the confidence to experience it. ;-)
Coffee Mug
28-06-2011, 17:38
erm... I own both, a Williams 1 and a new shape 2.2 diesel mondeo. The mondeo, whilst heavy has 175bhp but a mammoth 420N/m of torque with overboost... In gear, the mondeo will leave the Williams for dead, but off the line the Williams is far quicker.
A to B if the road was twisty mondeo has lovely steering and handles superbly but I think I would be fractionally quicker in the Williams....
In gear....but we dont drive in one gear do we? We go 'through the gears', or change down if we need to. What insane reason would you want to compare 'in gear' performance?
I love the way diesel owners have to limit the contest to small areas of performance in order to find areas diesels are faster.
'oh yes but lets limit the contest to just one gear'
'no, lets drive the cars how they were meant to be driven and use the gears to change down'
If you drive in 4th and stay in that gear all the time, im sure your diesel is faster. I dont, i drive a petrol car and know how to keep it in the power band by changing gear as and when necessary.
It also doesnt sound like you diesel is standard, another trick diesel owners use, in order to bend the truth.
Mate. . . Drink less coffee!
Diesels were banned from touring cars, and Le Mans because they were too fast as well as expensive. . . . . .
Coffee Mug
28-06-2011, 18:15
Mate. . . Drink less coffee!
Diesels were banned from touring cars, and Le Mans because they were too fast as well as expensive. . . . . .
And if you look, the regs for the diesel engines in Le Man were different from the petrol engines to make them competitive. If you applied the same rules to the diesels, they would have been rubbish.
Coffee Mug
28-06-2011, 18:26
Mate. . . Drink less coffee!
Diesels were banned from touring cars, and Le Mans because they were too fast as well as expensive. . . . . .
A quick scan of the le mans forums and i found out that Audi needed to get a a 50 % larger displacement limit, a 52 % larger intake restrictor, an absolute boost pressure limit nearly double that of a petrol engine, and an increase in minumun weight in order to accomodate the weight of the diesel engine, in order to be competivie with the petrol engine cars.
Without these things the disel would have been SLOW
ooohhhh no i can see this ending in tears :lol :
Ditto :-)
Kingscott
28-06-2011, 19:08
Diesels smell funny and go "dagga dagga dagga"
That's my technical input. :)
However we have 3 brand new v16 twin turbo 50L cummins generators that can kick out 1.7 mw of electricity each. They make me smile!
But they did have those things and they were faster than petrol . . . and not only in 4th gear. No doubt the horrendous development costs wont have been totally wasted as the technology will filter through to road cars just like the petrol versions have. They behave differently so the driver has to adjust his technique accordingly. I think people are only suggesting that the long held possibly blinkered views on old rattly diesels may be due a re think. There is no denying that you can cover huge distances faster and in a lot more comfort in a diesel nowadays and feel a lot more refreshed and with less of a fuel bill, at the end of the journey than in an old williams. The point about the 60 to 100 performance is this is what you need if your driving quickly over long distances eg Germany. The argument about journalistic integrity and the right to reply is fair enough.
Diesels smell funny and go "dagga dagga dagga"
That's my technical input. :)
However we have 3 brand new v16 twin turbo 50L cummins generators that can kick out 1.7 mw of electricity each. They make me smile!
:-) F ROFL
It's interesting though, the latest report mentions how the Willy is not much slower than the Clio 200 round Spa.
Thats exactly what the original willy excels at wobba the kart like handling between 85 and 115 but most of us dont get the chance or have not got the training to have the confidence to experience it. ;-)
One day, I too will travel over 85 mph... :p I've been told it's just not safe though so I dare not try.
Its ok at that speed but you need a man on your bonnet holding a red flag to let people know your coming, especially now your exhaust is quieter. :-)
Red_Dash
29-06-2011, 09:10
erm... I own both, a Williams 1 and a new shape 2.2 diesel mondeo. The mondeo, whilst heavy has 175bhp but a mammoth 420N/m of torque with overboost... In gear, the mondeo will leave the Williams for dead, but off the line the Williams is far quicker.
A to B if the road was twisty mondeo has lovely steering and handles superbly but I think I would be fractionally quicker in the Williams....
I also own a Williams and a 2.2 tdci mondeo (although mine is the mk3 and not the latest version with the revised engine). However, it's a great car and for day to day driving it's a real pleasure, returning 51 mpg with the way I drive so slowly nowadays :shock:. O-60 times don't really concern me like they used to. For me it's all about general driving pleasure. The Williams has that in spades, but I still love driving my Mondeo :D
If I came to change the Mondeo, (and I'd struggle to justify it considering how good the car is) I'd get another with the 2.2 tdci engine or I'd go for a BMW 335d because I'm becoming a big fan of these fancy new auto gearboxes and I'd have all the power I could want for realistic everyday driving.
silverhornetclio
29-06-2011, 18:46
Off autocar
Mondeo st 155 30-70mph 8.3 sec
Williams 30-70 6.9secs
In an article i read the other day he was saying his Diesel Modeo was a faster car.
http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Stephen-Dobie/blogs/index.cfm/2011/6/3/Converting-to-diesel
Recent back-to-back blasts on the roads in Evo Towers' back garden between my Williams clio and a 2.2-litre diesel Mondeo revealed that the impressive pace of a well sorted hot hatch, one which still feels quick 15 years after it stopped production, struggles to match that of a decent diesel.
Absolute bollocks.
I thought the article made a relevant point for the modern motoring enthusiast.
The automotive world has moved on since the Williams :wink:
In an article i read the other day he was saying his Diesel Modeo was a faster car.
http://community.evo.co.uk/users/Stephen-Dobie/blogs/index.cfm/2011/6/3/Converting-to-diesel
Recent back-to-back blasts on the roads in Evo Towers' back garden between my Williams clio and a 2.2-litre diesel Mondeo revealed that the impressive pace of a well sorted hot hatch, one which still feels quick 15 years after it stopped production, struggles to match that of a decent diesel.
Absolute bollocks.
I thought the article made a relevant point for the modern motoring enthusiast.
The automotive world has moved on since the Williams :wink:
:welcome:
sideways danny
29-06-2011, 23:08
I see this forum still panders to Strombas bollocks then.
moved on to a place i'd rather not go, airbags and crumple zones
damn you eu regs and your weight
I see this forum still panders to Strombas bollocks then.
I had twin Strombas on my sunbeam stilletto and they were faster than diesels then too ;-)
think youl find they were stromBERGS ;)
or beks in this case
berks even...grrrr at edit
Nah I remember exactly cos it was a front radiator, 1040cc r17cam, wills ringed big valve head and I swapped them for a 28/36 Webberg. There wasn't a diesel in the land that would touch it. ;-)
Mind you there wasn't a diesel in the land in those days bar trucks. They've come a long way have they not? Lol
cos it was a front radiator, 1040cc r17cam, wills ringed big valve head and I swapped them for a 28/36 Webberg
Jock u must be as old as me :lol: :lol: :lol:
I use to use an Hillman Imp on road rallies in the late '70's reg STF 570H ~~i think :oops: :oops: :oops:
Same 1040cc capacity,wills ringed big valved head but with an R23 cam and a pair of Weber 40 DCOE,with a huge silencer accross the back,Triumph Herarald disc brakes on the front :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Was great on cold night events with the copper water pipes running through the car :wink: :wink: never needed to use the heater :o :o :o Oh happy days,never mind Diesels being quicker,very few of the Pinto engined Escorts could live with it,I wil dig out some pics and post later if you want :roll: :roll: :roll:
Rod
Ps,My new 1.5CDI Clio ~~ aint as quick as my old Williams,but road holding is superb,0~60 in a week,had it up to over 90mph :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: a very stable car ~~~ good fuel economy too 8) 8)
im gonna say from 30 - 120mph my Fabia VRS would destroy my williams.
and the fabia isn't even remapped! just the pull is unreal. And uphill the williams would be left further behind!
though the williams is 100% more fun :D
Dunc
cliorod im not sure im quite that old ;-) but most of my mates had minis as they were plentiful. I remember the race boys 998cc imps had 118 bhp and pulled 9000 rpm ! far more than you could ever get out a mini. My 3rd gear pulled from 20-85 leaving many shiny new xr3 drivers puzzled. They were low slung ally engines and you could lift it by hand and rear wheel drive traction was great and once you sorted out the front camber and brakes properly they were mighty. I do remember some people said just put a bag of cement in the boot sigh, nothing changes. My block was built for a racing sidecar and they cut the starter motor fixture off so the passenger had more space! :-) .
Oh and as for the copper radiator pipes, my girlfriend started wearing socks and jeans :-( so her ankles didnt get burned, im sure she thought it was yet another ploy to get her feet on the dashboard ! :-) :-)
MatBrown
30-06-2011, 13:53
It also doesnt sound like you diesel is standard, another trick diesel owners use, in order to bend the truth.
LoL, pretty sure some petrol owners do this too!
It also doesnt sound like you diesel is standard, another trick diesel owners use, in order to bend the truth.
LoL, pretty sure some petrol owners do this too!
Lol - quite right. I think a standard Williams is one with an exhaust, decat, chip and sometimes cams.
Oh and some stripage.
zmaster2k
01-07-2011, 07:14
Firstly lolololollolol
Secondly, the old man has a 2.2 mondeo with remap and quite frankly it's very impressive! Torque does it for me! But alas diesel dossnt!
Mate. . . Drink less coffee!
Think he is more of a "tea-drinker" myself!
Coffee Mug
01-07-2011, 10:31
Good thread, still waiting for the non-anecdotal, hard stat evifdence that shows the 2.2 Modeo is faster in any respect than a fully functional factory standard Williams.
Lol - people are telling you, you're just not listenning.
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