View Full Version : F7r Head Removal
grantyswilly2
23-06-2011, 13:59
Hi all, I want to take off the cylinder-head of my Williams 2, so I can check it over. Is there a step-by-step guide for this process somewhere on here!?. I tried the Search tool but didn't find what I was looking for. Any help would be most appreciated!!?
Cheers
16v_paddy
23-06-2011, 15:01
I'm not sure if there is one on here either but it's pretty straight forward,
Support the weight of the engine as you need to remove the O/S engine mount to be able to remove the pulley cover & get at the cam belt to slacken it off.
Disconnect the down pipe from the manifold
Disconnect the fuel pipes from the fuel rail
Remove the airbox & throttle cable, then remove the rocker cover, you'll be able to see the 10 head bolts, you need a T55 torx bit to undo them
I'm not sure if there is one on here either but it's pretty straight forward,
Support the weight of the engine as you need to remove the O/S engine mount to be able to remove the pulley cover & get at the cam belt to slacken it off.
Disconnect the down pipe from the manifold
Disconnect the fuel pipes from the fuel rail
Remove the airbox & throttle cable, then remove the rocker cover, you'll be able to see the 10 head bolts, you need a T55 torx bit to undo them
:lol:
What he said the only thing I atually know and someone beat me to it :D
16v_paddy
23-06-2011, 15:04
:lol:
grantyswilly2
23-06-2011, 15:27
Cool thanks for the info... Now where did i leave my T55 torx bit! :P
I'd start by taking the bonnet off.
16v_paddy
23-06-2011, 20:05
I'd start by taking the bonnet off.
There's always one that has to be a bloody smart arse :roll:
:lol:
Be careful as well, I put my back out and its never been the same since lifting a head off with manifolds attached by my little self a few years ago :(
grantyswilly2
24-06-2011, 13:28
Cheers Wobba, I've taken the bonnet off..... it's a shame 2 of the 4 bolts sheered-off from the bonnet when undoing the 4 bracket nuts. :shock:
I think my car's is angry at me coz i've left her sat in a dark garage for over a year now because I haven't had the cash to sort it out! The last time it was running was when the engine died, sounded like something in the head had broken and got mangled up with the rest of it, but I won't know exactly what damage was caused until I get into the head. The car has 130,000 miles on the clock anyway, so I'm sure the engine could do with a complete rebuild.
Right batteries out, bonnet is off (minus two bolts) next step......drain the coolant :)
Ahh fek it. Those bolts shear quite easy :(
First time I did it, I got stuck on removing the battery, took me two days as I didnt have a socket to get the battery clamp off and it seized.
http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28459
That link is to my old project when I did an HG...I was a total noobie back then :D
Oh, whilst I remember, PLEASE be careful with the fuel rail, if there is any pressure in the system it can spray about and getting it in your eye...trust me it ****ing hurts and can really mess you up!
grantyswilly2
24-06-2011, 16:15
Wobba! I read your thread. I see you ended up on crutches!!? I hope your back has mended ok now? I will learn from your mistake and definitely take the manifold off. :)
Who did you get to carry out the head refurbishment? Did they do a good job? So far I've got the battery out, bonnet off, drained the coolant, draining the oil next......
Yea the head was fine when I got it back but they ripped me off. I would just call around and ask people. If you get stuck ask sideways danny on here, I am sure he can do that sort of thing. It will likely just need pressure testing and maybe a minor skim, plus a clean-up.
grantyswilly2
25-06-2011, 12:26
Well I drained out the oil, expecting it to contain pieces of metal from the cylinder head but only oil came out (I think that is a good sign), the less damage done the better.
Next I'm going to take off the dizzy-cap and unbolt the manifold but that looks pretty corroded. I have been soaking the bolts with WD40, which may help (i hope) :)
Some people really struggle with them manifold to DP bolts/nuts.
I actually use an extension bar and a socket and go at them from underneath, as it can be a bit of a stretch to reach them otherwise and its made all the harder when they are seized.
grantyswilly2
25-06-2011, 12:53
Just given the bolts another soak with WD40 and after having a closer look, they don't appear to be too bad, threads look ok. I've got an extension bar so ill try that out. Just hope they don't break like the bonnet bolts did :shock:
I find it puts less stress on the bonnet studs to work on them with the bonnet closed. You can do this by taking the grill off and popping a 13mm ratchet spanner in the gap to the nuts. Get it roughly in position before finally tightening all round.
grantyswilly2
25-06-2011, 16:31
I'll remember that next time. Just got the manifold down pipe off (no problems with the bolts). Dizzy cap next....!
grantyswilly2
25-06-2011, 17:35
Found some damage at last.....
just took off the crankshaft casing as i was about to remove the distributer and spark plugs (turn the engine over till i felt compression in spark plug hole 1)..... and 2 ball-bearings fell out along with some small pieces of chewed-up metal......
Found some damage at last.....
just took off the crankshaft casing as i was about to remove the distributer and spark plugs (turn the engine over till i felt compression in spark plug hole 1)..... and 2 ball-bearings fell out along with some small pieces of chewed-up metal......
You mean cam cover?
In the head?
Pics please!!!
grantyswilly2
27-06-2011, 10:31
The ball bearings measure 8mm in diameter. I previously thought the engine failure/damage was in the head region but it looks like I was wrong.
Perhaps one of the pulleys has gone into self destruct mode then.
grantyswilly2
27-06-2011, 12:40
Any tips on getting that crankshaft pulley nut undone? Just tried to undo the crankshaft pulley nut with someone pressing the brake pedal down fully (supposedly to keep the pulley wheel from rotating but it wouldn't undo? :shock:
You can try locking the engine at TDC ;)
There is a special locking pin from Renault, but some just use a screwdriver.
I did it the first time on the valver by jamming a screwdriver in the flywheel :)
grantyswilly2
27-06-2011, 13:53
Hey Wobba! I don't suppose you have a photo of that technique? I don't wanna damage the flywheel if i can help it :D
grantyswilly2
27-06-2011, 14:03
ahhh it's ok, i realise what you mean.... i'll give it a go!
grantyswilly2
28-06-2011, 14:10
I'm not going to risk damaging the flywheel by jamming a screwdriver in there. I've been looking around for a flywheel holding tool... I found this http://www.premiertools.co.uk/products/Flywheel_Holding_Tool_-_Renault_Petrol_Diesel.htm. Looks like you have to drill your own hole so you can put a bolt on to keep the thing in-place?
You don't need to drill anything!
http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/search.php?mode=results
Go through some of them and you'll find all you need to know.
You don't need to drill anything!
http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/search.php?mode=results
Go through some of them and you'll find all you need to know.
Oops, search for 'locking pin' and match all words.
You'll struggle to damage the flywheel by holding a screwdriver in the 'inspection hole' on the gearbox. Just get a large screwdriver and prevent it from turning whilst someone else undoes the bolt on the crank pulley with a big breaker bar.
grantyswilly2
02-07-2011, 14:12
Thanks for the tip 'cliokiz'. I used your advice and managed to undo that crankshaft pulley nut but first I decided to tackle the cylinder head.....
Having taken off the top valve cover, I found what looked like thin chewed metal sat in-between the two cam pulleys. It looked very similar to the piece I found lower resting behind the crank pulley wheel along with 9x 8mm ball bearings! So at least 1 bearing had broken within the timing belt setup..... after taking the belt off, i soon realised that both the belt tensioners were completely knackered!! :shock:
grantyswilly2
02-07-2011, 14:34
The cambelt itself didn't break so I am hoping that there won't be much damage done to the valves and pistons!? The intake and exhaust valves appear to be ok, you can see the cross-hatching on the wall of the cylinders (I'll take a better photo) which indicates to me that the engine has been well topped with oil.
Use photobucket for the pics mate, cant see shit there.
From what I can see the internals look sound, bonus.
The whole thing needs a damn good clean up though, make sure those metal filings dont go anywhere unwanted!
Cambelt kit should sort it, get them pulleys off and identify if any others need replacing.
Going to have the head cleaned/de-coked/skimmed?
scratabout1988
04-07-2011, 19:57
glad to see that someones doing it at the same time as me.
I just got my head back from the skimmers so now about to build the engine, and it's all much easier when the things out of the car. mind for the skimming i had to take everything but the valves off the head but for peace of mind it was all worth it.
That T55 torx bit will have to either be 3/8" or a very long 1/2". my 1/2" wasn't long enough and with the bolts lodged quite far down in the head wouldn't fit down to them.
whilst we're on the subject can anyone help me out with a few questions i need to get sorted.
1) does anyone have a torques setting for the head bolts as the manual states initial first & second tightenings of 3 daNM & 5 daNM, then loosen them all and re-tighten to 2.5 daNM and finish with an angle setting of 107 degrees? which seems dodgy surely there should just be a sequence and a tightening torque? (see extract below)
2) when doing the timing with standard valves/shafts etc is there away to increase power by running a few degrees out? i note the 0 to 8 degree marks on the bell housing and normally just lining the flywheel up with 0 for TDC but my friend was saying that his ford crossflow engine he uses in his race car is running 6 degrees out for a little more power?
i'm a little sceptical about doing it so will probably stick to 0!
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/headtorque.png
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/IMG_0308.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/IMG_0330.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/IMG_0333.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/IMG_0332.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu260/robferguson20/IMG_0331.jpg
16v_paddy
04-07-2011, 20:20
1) does anyone have a torques setting for the head bolts as the manual states initial first & second tightenings of 3 daNM & 5 daNM, then loosen them all and re-tighten to 2.5 daNM and finish with an angle setting of 107 degrees? which seems dodgy surely there should just be a sequence and a tightening torque? (see extract below)
I've no idea what the stuff in bold means :? :oops: But this is the way I done mine and in the same sequence as in the pic above
"30 Nm + Angle Tighten by 50 deg +/- 4 deg
Wait for 3 mintues minimum
Loosen all bolts completly
25 Nm + Angle tighten by 108 deg +/- 3 deg"
scratabout1988
04-07-2011, 20:24
1) does anyone have a torques setting for the head bolts as the manual states initial first & second tightenings of 3 daNM & 5 daNM, then loosen them all and re-tighten to 2.5 daNM and finish with an angle setting of 107 degrees? which seems dodgy surely there should just be a sequence and a tightening torque? (see extract below)
I've no idea what the stuff in bold means :? :oops: But this is the way I done mine and in the same sequence as in the pic above
"30 Nm + Angle Tighten by 50 deg +/- 4 deg
Wait for 3 mintues minimum
Loosen all bolts completly
25 Nm + Angle tighten by 108 deg +/- 3 deg"
well done that man!
so far on my mechanical engineering degree i've not come across a daNM before? but i would imagine 3 daNM id 30NM? sort of looks about right!
Stupid french! :lol:
grantyswilly2
05-07-2011, 23:54
Hey Wobba, sorry I used my mobile phone to take those pics, bit crap i know. I'll use my digital camera nxt time and upload to Photobucket.
I've cleaned the exterior of the head pretty good now but when i take the internals to be cleaned-up, de-coked and checked-out.... do you think i should take the cylinder-head as one piece or in seperate pieces? I guess it will be cheaper if i supply it in pieces!? :?
Hi 'scratabout1988', good to hear your getting on well with your rebuild! Was your cylinder-head warped or damaged at all? is that why you had it skimmed? Roughly how much did that cost? I don't think mine needs to be done, just needs cleaning i think.... but i guess i will find out when i take it to an engine-reconditioner for de-coking etc...
scratabout1988
06-07-2011, 07:45
Hey Wobba, sorry I used my mobile phone to take those pics, bit crap i know. I'll use my digital camera nxt time and upload to Photobucket.
I've cleaned the exterior of the head pretty good now but when i take the internals to be cleaned-up, de-coked and checked-out.... do you think i should take the cylinder-head as one piece or in seperate pieces? I guess it will be cheaper if i supply it in pieces!? :?
Hi 'scratabout1988', good to hear your getting on well with your rebuild! Was your cylinder-head warped or damaged at all? is that why you had it skimmed? Roughly how much did that cost? I don't think mine needs to be done, just needs cleaning i think.... but i guess i will find out when i take it to an engine-reconditioner for de-coking etc...
alright mate,
there wasn't anything wrong with my f7r when i removed it from my williams, just the gearbox had a synchro gone.I'm about to put it in my 16v track car and didn't want to risk the hassle of anything going wrong in the future so i'm just replacing all the main bits, ie head gasket, cambelt, waterpump, aux belt etc.
(got to get a move on though as i'm supposed to be at the donington track day in a few weeks!)
i couldn't accurately check whether the head was warped as i didn't have an engineers metal ruler or decent flat edge, the best i had was a spirit level which seemed to show a slight bow in the middle of the head maybe half a mm? but again could have been the casing on the spirit level.
price for skimming and pressure testing varies obviously, i went to a place just outside Loughborough (may not be local for you) but they pressure tested and did a very slight skim (fractions of a mm) for £40.
If i ever do a head gasket i always get the head skimmed to ensure 100% flat surface as it's alot of hassle all over again to replace! :D
For the sake of a couple of hours to get out and a couple of hours to get back in I personally would sooner just take the engine out of the car and have proper access to everything than mess around with it in the bay, especially given that you cant even get the sump off while the engine is sat in the subframe to check the bearings over.
Doing the headgasket in the bay isn't too bad, i've done it once before and I'd probably do it that way again unless the engine is already out
Doing the headgasket in the bay isn't too bad, i've done it once before and I'd probably do it that way again unless the engine is already out
Depends on the reason you are doing it and when you last inspected the shells and changed the pumps etc really.
Most of these cars that are doing the head gasket now are doing so cause they are so old and lots of other parts are on their way too, so its a good excuse for a freshen up of the rest at the same time IMHO
Mind you im probably more fussy than most like that, mine hadnt blown, was still working fine, didnt make any rattles or knocks and I pulled it apart and freshened it up just as a matter of course because I have been giving it death round track for a couple of years so felt it was due about now.
scratabout1988
07-07-2011, 12:24
Ill be whacking the head back on tomorrow night when i get back to Leicester so hopefully i can get the engine rebuilt this weekend.
just out of interest does anyone have the torge settings for the CAM pulleys and tensioners?
MattDilley
07-07-2011, 13:04
Ill be whacking the head back on tomorrow night when i get back to Leicester so hopefully i can get the engine rebuilt this weekend.
just out of interest does anyone have the torge settings for the CAM pulleys and tensioners?
Haynes manual has all the torque settings you'll need.
scratabout1988
11-07-2011, 12:08
Ill be whacking the head back on tomorrow night when i get back to Leicester so hopefully i can get the engine rebuilt this weekend.
just out of interest does anyone have the torge settings for the CAM pulleys and tensioners?
Haynes manual has all the torque settings you'll need.
All well and good if you have one! :)
It's 37 lb/ft for the camshaft sprockets and tensioner nut.
scratabout1988
14-07-2011, 10:58
It's 37 lb/ft for the camshaft sprockets and tensioner nut.
Cheers for that wobba,
If i weren't so broke and hand more time on my hands id get a haynes manual!
Is it 50NM for the crank pulley and other bottom pulley as well?
scratabout1988
25-07-2011, 20:16
got my engine in yesterday and cranked it up along with all the electrical problems of no ignition or fuel pump, theres water pissing into 3 piss-pots, :cry:
had the head skimmed & pressure tested
new gasket & bolts
cleaned bottom end with rag and diesel
gasket on right way & locating dowels in the right place
torqued to 30nm in correct sequence
then to 50 degrees in correct sequence
waited 3 mins and loosened completely in reverse order
then same again to 25nm and 108 degrees and left it.
somethings obviously not right and for water to be in 3 cylinders it suggests the head or gasket or both aren't sitting correctly.
i missed donington today in the clio but luckily my mate brought his lotus 7 to save the day with a sympathy drive.
oh well engine back out................. :cry:
You've not done something stupid like attach a water pipe to a breather pipe or something have you?
Seems unlikely to be that 3 cylinders would all fail on the water side of things on a new head gasket even if you arent really sure what you are doing, its hard to get it *that* wrong bolting down a head.
scratabout1988
26-07-2011, 15:01
i don't think so pretty sure i wouldn't have, but seems a logical explanation if so as that head was definitely sitting right and torqued down to those specs,
In sheffield during the week but will be back in Leicester friday night so i will double check when i get back,
for now i flushed all the water out and chucked some oil into the bores and cranked it to stop the rings rusting.
I'm cycling from John O Groats to Lands end at the weekend so won't be able to do much on the car for a couple of weeks anyway
scratabout1988
26-07-2011, 15:09
oh and i seem to have alot of compression as the water chucks out like a fountain,
Well you cant compress water, its a liquid, you can only compress gasses, so I wouldnt really take any notice of that.
If there is 200cc of water in the bore, and you turn it over and it ends up in about 50cc of combustion chamber its going to either come out the plug holes or bend a conrod to make room for itself, cause one thing it wont be doing is getting 75% smaller!
volymmannen
26-07-2011, 21:40
remove the head again, thats not right at all..
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