View Full Version : R5 GTT with F7p turbo (work in progress)
Well I decided I had got as much as i could out of my C1j engine and therefore sold it on whilst it was working and opted for an F7p turbo conversion.
So I built myself a Forged F7p lump ready for turbo application:
C1J out
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2149.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2155.jpg
F7p Turbo in
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2156.jpg
Mock up
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2166.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2195.jpg
This is the last pic I took, since this all pipework and wiring has been finished.
I am just struggling to get the injectors to fire, she has really strong spark, fuel to rail, fuel pump primes, engine turns on starter.
I have a few thinks to check, relay's and earth's
Need it up and running by the end of the week as driving it leicester on saturday for RTOC national day
Should add I only started the conversion on the 20th May 2011 :D
lol! where do you get the power from which feeds your ecu?
lol! where do you get the power from which feeds your ecu?
:lol: :oops: missed them but they are wired in now, injectors fire but 2 are not working, so now awaiting new set of 802 injectors to turn up fingers crossed they arrive tomorrow.
In the meantime am going to borrow a friends set to see if i cn get my car to idle
Fantastic progress!! Looks absolutely lush! Hope your injectors turn up tomorrow!!!
Well injectors did turn up and she started bad new is engine is out again and stripped as rings in number 3 were shot :(
Now awaiting parts
Chadwick
05-06-2011, 15:26
You dont mess about do you?!
Good stuff matey , loving the 5 in the best colour as well :wink:
Damn! That sucks man!!
Tell me about but on a good note it started and ran for a few secs :D
I just hope parts turn up quick so i can get it all back together again and actually drive the 5
You dont mess about do you?!
:lol: OCD when it comes to the car :lol: slightly different when it comes to house DIY though :D
Good stuff matey , loving the 5 in the best colour as well :wink:
Cheers Schakal nice to see and RTOC member on here aswell you will have prob seen me on the RTOC boards over the years :D
Well little update :(
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2205.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2216.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2219.jpg
And the damage I found to number 3 JE forged piston when i got it out to remove / replace the rings. It is currently at the mahcine shop having the ring gaps sorted and widened to except OE size rings as the JE rings I had are going to be to thin, at least it can be saved and the piston is still round.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2218.jpg
Any idea how this could happen?
Maybe you should contact the distributor or fabricator to try and get some money back. How is the cyl?
Any idea how this could happen?
Maybe you should contact the distributor or fabricator to try and get some money back. How is the cyl?
I have not even driven the car with this engine in yet :cry: ,
Unfortunatly I bought the engine 2nd hand for quiet alot of ££££'s and it was apparently running (think I have been mugged), I have been lucky enough to have a decent machine shop near to where I live and they have sorted the piston out but it involved widening the piston ring slots, this was fine as I can now use OE size piston rings within as the JE jobbies are alot thinner so managed to save this piston.
With ref to causation I would say bad det / knocking. i think a number of things could have caused this the T25, chargecooler or the 3bar fpr reg he was using. i believe 3.5 bar fpr is required.
I have so far changed a few things on the fueling side of it I have fitted a brand new Walbro 255 external pump, 4 bar fpr (Audi bosch jobbie fitted rail perfect), and just purchased a 2nd hand T28 pulsar GTIR turbo with the .86 rear housing so this should be much better than the T25, just need to get intercooler now but again I am doing pod on the 1st July so need this car to be running before then at least a week before so I can drive and iron out any niggly problems which there are bound to be (so chargecooler will be staying a little longer).
Engine is going back together tonight and I will prob have time to drop it in the 5 aswell
Arent alloy pistons case-hardened?
That to me doesnt look like its had any treatment and is soft alloy,i dont know a lot about car engines so might be terribly wrong but i do make aero engines and our alloy is always treated to make it more durable??
The consistent fuel press is not the problem but it needs to rise with the boost press. In that way fueling can be much better weighed by the injection system.
Does the vw fuelrail bulg have a nipple for the absolute press in the manifold?
Also the t28 will prevent the hotside getting way to hot and will not be burning exhaust valves.
What have you paid for the engine if u like to share?
What is it u are trying to say?
people will get the wrong impression by you're post...and i cant blame them.
If you could be more specific maybe i can correct myself...
To find the answer why it had a faillure, not easy. Whe read words on a board and the only thing whe can do is guess.
Its only the 3th cilinder that has ringfaillure, what about the other cilinders? Compressiontest ?
Pistons dont need to be coated (answer to one off the above posts), all the older types didnt had coatings but they are all forged. (JE, Arias, Wossner, you name them). More up to date pistons got coatings on the side. If they are better...dont know. Never had problems with old or new types.
Reason for the specific ringfaillure ? The pistontop isnt demaged because off detonation, not seen in the picture. So i dont think that its got something to do with fueling and ignition or map overall. So what is it then ? Bad fitment ? Boresize to big ?
Whe dont now without tests, whe can guess whatever whe want.
One thing i know for sure, when i see that piston, i'm sure the cilinder needs to get honed (at least) or rebore. If it was my engine, i'll took it all out just to check and measure.
btw, tutuur, in Uk you can find many decals (stickers) wich say: build, not bought. Whats you're story ? :lol:
appologies for my bad translation.
Mine is build by someone else and then i bought it :P
Thanks for the enrigement of info!
Still i don't know what's the piece of my post that could confuse people?
Just to declare: i didn't say it was a failure due to fueling.
And with the t28 i mean the t28 with .86 ar he mentioned.
Time for james to come in. Too much posts already.
(although i think hes in the garage right now)
Whats wrong with the T28 and .86 turbine ? Ive got the GT28RS, same turbine size, 60 compressor.
Nothing :P nevermind...
I asked what part of my post might be confusing?
because its worthless ? :lol: :wink:
:lol:
Ok My compression results were when I discovered the problem,
1 - 150psi
2 - 150psi
3 - 60psi
4 - 148psi
As you can see the 3 of the bores were fine, number 3 was well down.
Yes the VW / Audi FPR is identical in appearance and size as the OE 3bar FPR other than it says 4 bar on the side :D
With ref to price I paid for the engine I paid £1240.00 from a bloke in Braintree, Essex thought I was getting a deal as bottom end is fully forged and Enginering dymanice aka BBPT are after £1800 for a fully built engine wish I had gone down that route now.
I ended up having the Piston ring gaps machined slightly larger to accept OE size piston rings, I also had the piston tested for roundness and it was perfectly fine, Engine is all back together again and the car is running.
the only problem I have is high revving that increases by itself :?: my thoughts were air leak but I have fitted all new gaskets to the inlet and TB and it's still doing it all vacum ports are in use aswell, I can only think TB TPS is out or the injecotor rubber seals into the head are not sealing properly, I am going to do some tests tonight to see if it leaks anyway where with some Wd40 and brake cleaner :D
There is a further update I have now diteched the chargecooler even though i have not dirven the car I have never liked them and now have a Twin PAS intercooler on the way.
Conversion so far has cost me £2093.00 which to be honest isn't to bad
Ok will add
Piston bore sizes are standard measurement, the JE forged pistons are also standard size.
wich type twinpass ? 200 serie ? I'm after one myself but think i'm going for the 400 serie. Got more space behind the fb then the std williams.
wich type twinpass ? 200 serie ? I'm after one myself but think i'm going for the 400 serie. Got more space behind the fb then the std williams.
I went for a Twin pass £120.00 posted ebay special just means I won't be able to run the standard GTT grill now, i went for the twin pass as i wanted the shortest pipe run I could get
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140555168719&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
The bay
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2239.jpg
nice,
i meant these types (400 series listed but they got smaller types 2)
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Intercooler-King/_i.html?_nkw=twinpass&LH_SellerWithStore=1&LH_TitleDesc=1&_armrs=1&_dmd=1&_from=R10&_ipg=&_sasi=1&_sop=1&_vc=1
nice,
i meant these types (400 series listed but they got smaller types 2)
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Intercooler-King/_i.html?_nkw=twinpass&LH_SellerWithStore=1&LH_TitleDesc=1&_armrs=1&_dmd=1&_from=R10&_ipg=&_sasi=1&_sop=1&_vc=1
Argh that looks pretty much the same just slightly shorter in overall length, damm wish I found that before I ordered length wise would have been better fit for me
Well gues what she only goes and runs and idles properly @ 1k rpm's turned out injectoro rings were to small
Well gues what she only goes and runs and idles properly @ 1k rpm's turned out injectoro rings were to small
leaking air from injector rings ??
you would expect fuel...first time i read it 2.
Well gues what she only goes and runs and idles properly @ 1k rpm's turned out injectoro rings were to small
leaking air from injector rings ??
Yeah the little O'rings that are supposed to seal around the head, only noticed well Steve did when she backfired out of one of them, good thing he noticed otherwise inlet was coming of again. I also have to run the ISCV valve like you said Shakal otherwise she just dies.
Spare cam cover sticker
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2244.jpg
Great job mate! 8)
Cheers matey, not bad for a full engine conversion in just under a month and completed :D
Well actually took the 5 for a drive last night and it was pretty much faultless only running 8psi at the mo and feck me feels rapid @ that turning boost up to 15psi tonight. Also going to sort a few little things out.
Very small engine leak,
Sort the turbo downpipe out as has slight leak,
Raise the car a few mm at the front,
Replace both side suspension bearing's.
Many thanks for all the advice and help peeps have given me on here :D
glad shes nearly there mate :-)
glad shes nearly there mate :-)
Cheers matey, the inspiration of seeing yours and Dan's clio's @ POD got me to pull my finger out again.
Congrats mate! It all whent so fast in the beginning but then stranded. Must have been very annoying!?
What front suspension do you have? It's recommended to fit 16v spring due to the weight of the engine.
Congrats mate! It all whent so fast in the beginning but then stranded. Must have been very annoying!?
What front suspension do you have? It's recommended to fit 16v spring due to the weight of the engine.
It was very very annoying :cry:
I am running AVO GTZ coilovers up front with 6" 550lbs spring's, if anything they are to much :lol: I have some 450lbs I am going to try at somepoint, got to raise the 5 though really as it was always low but with the sump now sitting a little bit lower than the subframe am concerned for loosing the sump :lol:
Don't ground the ECU VSS pin 3, causes smoke and possible fire.
Well car is still running has a couple of niggly bits left to do on it but I am still driving it turned the boost up some more and now running 14psi going to leave it there so I can monitor the afr's properly but from what I have seen so far they seem ok and crikey the car is fecking rapid wheelspins up very very quick, hit's the 7250 limiter pretty fecking quick from the off, also blowing spark out on hard accelerartion from stand still, so I need to check spark plug gaps sounds awesome but not good.
Engine isn't so tappety anymore, have some blue smoke which i think is valve stem seals maybe guides but to be honest not bothering me at the mo as it drives fantastic and you don't see it if you go fast enough :D I will sort them out in the future am loving the conversion, turn the key and starts first time
Things left to do
Replace battery as not holding charge for long,
Tidy engine bay main wireing harness up,
Get 2.5" exhaust clamp as one on now broken,
Sort high idle after 60mph + drive does it with or without boost,
eventually sort valve stem seals / guides.
fancy meetin u here james, ur a bit of a forum whore like myself lol. turbo conversion is looking good, will be looking forward to seeing ur 1/4 mile times
fancy meetin u here james, ur a bit of a forum whore like myself lol. turbo conversion is looking good, will be looking forward to seeing ur 1/4 mile times
Anything Renault 5 or Clio based I am pretty much on :lol: , the more places to search for advice the better, the williams forum is one of the only ones I can access from the work PC and they seem pretty good for advice on here aswell.
Well small update car is still running I have now installed my rising rate reg and set it @ 3.2 bar, I seem to have maxxed out the 802 injectors @ only 8psi :( weird as there supposed to fuel upto 14psi on this chip. I have a set of 803's on the way as I believe some of the chips were set up with 803's (aka cossie Dark Green's) wondering if mine was one of these.
I have also gone back to using the ICV as cold starting without is a pain in the arse even when TB adjusted properly.
I am having a slight problem at the moment and that is a rich idle, when you first turn the car on afr's show as 14.7-14.9 for say the first 10secs then they start to go really rich and stay around 10.9-11.1 with the car sometime wanting to stall. Can anyone shed any light on this I am not running the OE lambda sensor at present and am thinking this could be to do with that so i need to get my downpipe off and another bung welded on as my AEM wideband kit unfortunalty can't give off a wideband and narrowband signal at the sametime it's one or the other unfortunatly.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh25/GTTJames/F7p%20turbo%20conversion/SAM_2443.jpg
Why don't you place the chargecooler the same as Coops has?
Will result in a shorter routing of the pipes and also less bends.
Why don't you place the chargecooler the same as Coops has?
Will result in a shorter routing of the pipes and also less bends.
On the valver the chargecooler rests on the original battery tray the 5 GTT doesn't have that option so unfortunatly I have had to stick it where the chargecooler normally goes on a gtt.
I think the battery tray is part of the top engine mount on the clio aswell, the 5 gtt has no top engine mounts. I will look into it and see if the clio mount will fit the 5 if so I will defo change it around for the shorter less bendy pipe run
I doubt those couple of bends really effect it much in reality.
I think it won't be very much effort to fabricate a bracket or something similar :)
90, 90, 90, 90, 90, 90 vs 90, 45 ,90...
I thunk it wíll make a difference!
whe tested this long time ago, even between the 2D 90° and 3D 90° bends you got diff. Its amazing how the flow gets effected.
whe tested this long time ago, even between the 2D 90° and 3D 90° bends you got diff. Its amazing how the flow gets effected.
Most flow tests that people do are with very low pressure and without an engine with all its weird breathing characteristics on the other end.
Flow tests are the most misused metric in the world, like when people flow test heads, they find out that a bigger hole flows more air, but they then miss the point it will make far less torque if you go too far.
The reality is that such things as these extra 90 degree bends tend to make little difference in the real world, those bends will disrupt the flow far less than the charge cooler itself will for example.
If you are chasing the last 2bhp down on an engine, worry about it, if not, dont.
i'm with you, was just an answer on the question.
However, whe talk about 250, maybe 300 bhp engines wich is an easy achievement with these engines (turbocharged). If you got you're flow sorted the gain will be max 5bhp and like you said not worth the trouble.
The test whe did was with my 21t. First set up was the 2D 90° bend straith from turbo to ic + 30 cm straith hose (3"). Result was 281 at the wheels, 435 Nm torque.
Second set up, the strange europacup bend, langer travel but much better result: 289 at the wheels 446 Nm.
550bhp or so from my previous engine on the nova, and hopefully not too much less on the new one, thats with bends all over the shop, lol
Bottom line is that when you look at the effect bends actually have all it does in terms of the compressor map for the turbo is move you vertically up it, it doesnt actually move you any further along it.
With modern turbos that are happy to experience massive boost, its just really far less of an issue than its ever been.
Dont get me wrong, my car only has quite a few bends and a fair bit of length in the intake because I basically HAVE to, if you have the choice of a simple way to get rid of them you may as well, im just trying to manage his expectations that if he thinks by removing those bends his car is going to get a load quicker he'll be wrong to think that, cause it wont.
PS
This is my car i was on about in my last post:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y251/chip-3door/4m2/DSC_1826.jpg
bend out of the turbo, bend to drop down, bend to enter charge cooler, bend to come out of charge cooler, bend to move across, bend to drop down
So thats 6 bends, 5 of them 90s, and yet no problems at all with flowing what in the context of this discussion was massvie horsepower.
Cheers peeps will take a look at the pipe run the chargecooler is a temporary thing to be honest as I am wanting to for an intercooler.
Things are back on hold at the mo as the brand new Walbro 255 external (GSL392) packed at the begining of the week :( covered max 200miles so far and the dealer i got it from gives no warrenty other than the Walbro 1 yr manufacturer warrenty to which I have heard they never replace the pump's.
I am going to get a Bosch 044 this time around but in the meantime anyone ever stripped down a walrbo 255 and looked inside?
Maybe not much gains in horsepower but i dó think it will affect lag.
Spools up easier so torgue transfer will be more linear resulting in better grip.
Something you'll need with a fwd car!
Maybe not much gains in horsepower but i dó think it will affect lag.
Spools up easier so torgue transfer will be more linear resulting in better grip.
Something you'll need with a fwd car!
The volume of pipework matters far more than the shape of it in terms of effects on lag, and the volume thre is actually pretty small, especially considering the chargecooler itself isnt very large.
Even 10 litres of air is only 10 revolutions of the engine dont forget when you are talking about a 2 litre 4 stroke.
Yes there will be an effect, will it be perceivable to a human being, almost certainly not.
Its like if you go for a piss before you drive your car, yes technically its now lighter and faster, but dont expect to feel the difference (well other than the a big sigh of relief maybe)
All a bit acedemic anyway if he is going for a intercooler now, he'll have a far bigger intake volume on that no doubt!
With regards to the pump, an 044 needs to be gravity fed, so unless you have a lift pump it needs to be mounted lower than the bottom of the fuel tank.
With regards to the pump, an 044 needs to be gravity fed, so unless you have a lift pump it needs to be mounted lower than the bottom of the fuel tank.
On the 5 GTT the external GSL392 Walbro 255 is mounted lower than the tank and getting fuel to it hasn't been a problem until monday. The car idles fine and afr's are ok on idle but as soon as you up the revs says to 1200rpms there is not enough of a fuel supply and it hesitate's lean's out and dies.
I have replaced injectors, FPR's, different fuel rail, I even replaced all the fuel lines, new fuel filter aswell, even tried without fuel filter, removed the sender in tank to see if any debris in tank it is nice and clear, tank was brand new from Renault 1 yr ago.
Make sure you check the wiring too, although TBH that sounds too extreme a failure to be just down to low current, but it does limit a pumps flow if the wiring isnt upto the job and you get a voltage drop as a result.
you do have a point on the boost piping chip!
but if it's possible why wont do it :P
Dont get me wrong, im not saying dont do it, if nothing else it will make the bay easier to work on without all that crammed into it.
Im just trying to manage peoples perceptions of how much difference it will actually make performance wise
Those bends are worth a few quid too, so worth getting off just to sell, lol
Cheers for all the advice guys, I did try and run a live straight from the battery and it made no difference :( .
As the car isn't going anywhere at the mo due to the pump I will have a play with the chargecooler location and pipe run and see if I can get it the same as Coops layout :D .
Does anyone have a pic of the clio gearbox with the battery bracket in place?? i just want to see how it all fit's. I maybe able to bodge the clio mount onto the the Jb3.
Well removed the Walbro 255 (GSL392) tonight and put on a temporary Bosch pump for now of a standard sapphire cossie. Seems better not driven the car yet though. Adjustable reg back in place aswell set @ 3bar with vac line off.
Standard saph cosworth pump will do mid 300s without a problem.
Standard saph cosworth pump will do mid 300s without a problem.
Cheers, yeah stuck the sapphire pump on and I still have the same problem, I am not sure it is fuel related now I can hear the pump all ther time as the Bosch pump is noisey than the walbro. But no change tried to drive the car and it's the same :( Had a friend pop over yesterday and we went through a few things and he noted that my TPS (red box part) was slightly loose we tried to adjust it to get the correct settings but it would die under 1400 rpm's. We are going to get another TB which has not been touched and see if that makes any difference.
Other than that am stuck as to what could be the problem
a fuel pressure gauge should show you if its the pump or not
volymmannen
09-08-2011, 08:06
Standard saph cosworth pump will do mid 300s without a problem.
Cheers, yeah stuck the sapphire pump on and I still have the same problem, I am not sure it is fuel related now I can hear the pump all ther time as the Bosch pump is noisey than the walbro. But no change tried to drive the car and it's the same :( Had a friend pop over yesterday and we went through a few things and he noted that my TPS (red box part) was slightly loose we tried to adjust it to get the correct settings but it would die under 1400 rpm's. We are going to get another TB which has not been touched and see if that makes any difference.
Other than that am stuck as to what could be the problem
you need the xr25 to adjust TPS correct, but i heard you can measure it too,dont know how.
Standard saph cosworth pump will do mid 300s without a problem.
Cheers, yeah stuck the sapphire pump on and I still have the same problem, I am not sure it is fuel related now I can hear the pump all ther time as the Bosch pump is noisey than the walbro. But no change tried to drive the car and it's the same :( Had a friend pop over yesterday and we went through a few things and he noted that my TPS (red box part) was slightly loose we tried to adjust it to get the correct settings but it would die under 1400 rpm's. We are going to get another TB which has not been touched and see if that makes any difference.
Other than that am stuck as to what could be the problem
you need the xr25 to adjust TPS correct, but i heard you can measure it too,dont know how.
I tried to measure the OHMS on the TPS but it was just not setting at what i wanted it to. So have stuck another TB on and that has solved the crap idle, bogging, hestiation etc.. just need to get more fuel for WOT driving as only running 6psi and it's way to lean. Walbro 255 going back on and fpr going up to 3.2bar to see if it makes a difference
If you increase the FPR then you will make it richer everywhere not just where you want to.
It will need a proper remap.
Anything else you are wasting your time and will end up with either a melted engine or terrible economy, both of which cost more than getting it done properly.
If you increase the FPR then you will make it richer everywhere not just where you want to.
It will need a proper remap.
Anything else you are wasting your time and will end up with either a melted engine or terrible economy, both of which cost more than getting it done properly.
If only I had the funds for standalone at the mo.
A remap isn't that hard...
Henk is in Goes ( Zeeland, Netherlands) 17 sept (but it's booked) and 8 okt.
It's a club rollingroad meeting and he then charges very reasonable prices!
Only i'm guessing it is to far in the future for you :P
ahum ... :?:
both dates are fully booked and distance aint an issue, 4 UK cars booked.
I never talked about distance :P
But sorry for posting without asking you first.
crashed and being broken
Unfortunatly yes I had a tyre blow out at 75mph car then decided to roll :cry:
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