Rear engined Mk1 clio

[case]

I've been thinking of another project to do now i'm only doing the rubbish finishing touches to mine that you just never want to make time to do.

I want something that built just to use mainly for trackdays etc. I don't really mind what it looks like. i've been think ing about a bike engined mini but can't afford it. So this lead me to think about making a rear engined valver. I think i could make it and i'm sure it'd be alot of fun and loads easier to work on, and have the advantage or fully adjustable rear susspension etc. But does everyone think it'd be anygood round a track.

I've not got much track experience or practice with a rear engined car so i'm unsure whether it'd have big advantages on a track?

This then me on to thinking about a twin engined valver, once i'd got the rear one running and a bit more money i could then build both engines to a good spec and re-fit the front one. I know these many problems here but the main question i have is how insinc (sp) would the two engines have to run? As i can see there obiously is alot of factors that would mean the engines wouldn't be running the same. No two engines are the same and ontop of this you have differences in power curves, transmission losses, clutch slip, etc, etc. Would simply building to identical egines and then custom mapping them be ok?

Sorry for the long post but i have alot of questions before i could even think about getting this project off the ground.

Thanks
Mark

[Mark_Ritchspeed]

Probably easier making it 4wd. Get an early Evo with a shitty body and transfer everything over to the Clio shell including engine etc.

Nice easy 300bhp 4wd Clio.

Ok, maybe not "that" easy. :wink:

[case]

It'd cost loads to buy an evo though even if old. And although building and mapping the two engines wouldn't be cheap that a long long way away yet.

Other thing is i feel like i'm jumping in the deep end as it is and i know very little about evo's, turbos, or even 4wd set ups so thats a bit like jumping in the deep end with lead shoes on. :lol: While i think i could relatively easly replicate the complete front set-up of a clio in the back. Although that power of the evo would be loverly.

I think for the minute the twin engined one is a little ambisus (sp) but how would a rear engined one handle?

Thanks for the help.
Mark

[J o n]

how about a V-Tec lump with 250+ bhp and NA? Speak to BenR, he knows of a few eninge posibilites, plus there's always the 172 engine route, but i'm unsure on them as yet... they do make some great power tho.

[case]

i had thought about a vtec lump but again i'd have to find a Civic type R in the scrap yard with rear end damage, not common or cheap. Thought a valver engine then could build a TB willy or valver lump once i got it all running.

And it'd be true to its routes aswell if that not a little anal.

[J o n]

not anal at all mate, always more satisfying tuning the car with a manufacturer specified engine.

as for the Honda all you need to do is find a breakers, I found a fantastic Reno one and they get F7R quite a lot. So i'd imagine getting hold of a DC2 1.8 engine wont be too difficult a task if you look around.

[Swervin_Mervin]

A dc2 lump will be megabucks TJ. I think the valver lump is a good route. No one wants the engines so they're cheap as.

Whatever happened to that rear engined V8 mk1?

[J o n]

aah, wasn't sure how much they are, the CTR engines for the 2.0 I know are not too pricey... prolly less in fact due to being commonly available...

yeah the 5.7V8 Chevvy block iirc? Craig was the one in the know as regards that Mike... hopefully he can shed some light... but it's prolly one of those tried but it just wont work attempts, it was outrageous anyway, I'd have ****ing loved to have seen it working... fingers crossed it's still a work in progress!!!

[case]

Trouble is i really need the complete front set-up including subframe. Which i'd imagine will be alot of money when i know i can buy a non-running complete valver for £500.

I thought about a rear engined V8 but i just don't think you could fit it in easily with the box aswell. I know the 16v/williams set-up really well and thats why at the minute i'm prefering that option.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I bet it needed stabilisers at the rear!

Yeah the DC2 lumps are well pricey from what I remember Mark saying. Something like £1500 rings a bell. :shock:

[case]

stabilizers. hehe. thats why i wanted to do it. Imagine the looks as you pull a wheely off the line :twisted:

[2 live]

itd definately be fun on the track mate lol.all that rear end power, but with the weight bang on the axle lol

was gunna twin engine craggys old willy 2..til i hit money troubles....would be fairly easy to rear mount one i reckon

[Jabba the...]

stick a 182 lump in and tune or a gtt 250bhp turbo, stick with a renault engine its more authentic, they also do a 3.5 v6 as seen in the 350z bit ambitious or poss a 2.0 turbo lump from a megane :?:

[Zollo]

If you can find one, you can get a 285bhp 3.0 straight-six, including a 5-speed, out of the E36 M3 for £1800. Or £2400 for the 321bhp 3.2 with a six-speed from the Evo. :P

[clowo16v]

It's easy enough to space frame the back end to take an engine, though it'd probably be detrimental to the cars handling to have the engine transverse, as all the weight would be right at the back.

Best bet would be to find a Renault 25 gearbox, as you can get loads of adaptors to bolt it to various engines. Although not a Renault engine, best ones to go for are a Vauxhall redtop or Calibra turbo engine, or a Golf G60 motor. With the engine mid mounted the handling would probably be better than a modified standard layout car.

See ya

Matt

[case]

My main question is how would it handle with most of the weight over the rear axel? Obviously i'd put as much weight in the front as possible, fuel tank, radiator, battery, etc, etc, but it'd still be arse heavy by a mile.

How is a renault 25 drive train set-up is it front engined rear wheel drive? What concerns me about this is most cars i know like this the gear linkage is on the top of the box and feed straight into the car. I think this could be hard to get round, but i am unsure. Other thing i like about the transverse set-up was i would use the orignal subframe meaning i already have lower wishbones etc in the right place. the only thing i'd have to do for the susspension is fabricate a mount for the upper of the strut. Something i can't see being too difficult.

I can obviously see a mid-engined car would handle better but is it worth the extra work to move the weight forward off the rear axel?

thanks for all of the help.
Mark

[2 live]

best way to do a rear engined conversion, if ur fittin another clio engine, is to buy an old shitter, and use the front end of that...chop the back end out of ur clio now...drive the other clio into the boot area of urs, chop the front off at the bulkhead, and get the strut tops etc all stitched in to the back end

[Swervin_Mervin]

My main question is how would it handle with most of the weight over the rear axel? Obviously i'd put as much weight in the front as possible, fuel tank, radiator, battery, etc, etc, but it'd still be arse heavy by a mile.

How is a renault 25 drive train set-up is it front engined rear wheel drive? What concerns me about this is most cars i know like this the gear linkage is on the top of the box and feed straight into the car. I think this could be hard to get round, but i am unsure. Other thing i like about the transverse set-up was i would use the orignal subframe meaning i already have lower wishbones etc in the right place. the only thing i'd have to do for the susspension is fabricate a mount for the upper of the strut. Something i can't see being too difficult.

I can obviously see a mid-engined car would handle better but is it worth the extra work to move the weight forward off the rear axel?

thanks for all of the help.
Mark

25 was front engined front drive. I wouldn't use their stuff. Lotus used it on the Esprits and my dad owned a 25 and I can confirm the weakest link is the 25s box et al.

I would've thought the handling would be fine TBH if you had a twin engined one as the weight distribution would be 50/50.

[clowo16v]

My mates run a standarad 25 gearbox behind a 280bhp Cossie for years without any problems.

What about using a Beetle gearbox, you can build them to be really strong, and there's a variety of adaptors to mate them to other engines.

See ya

Matt

[KingStromba]

What about buying a turbo 2 and restoring it? :P

[case]

Why would a 25 gearbox be a good idea then if its front engined front wheel drive? Just because of the range of engines it will fit.

I know a twin engined will handle ok as it'd be 50 50 weight distribution. But i just really not sure how it'd handle with only a rear engine. Would it make the front wheels stupidly light in hard acceleration?

Would the car just be stupily arse happy.

Thanks
Mark

[clowo16v]

The 25 engine/gearbox is inline, so the driveshafts come out of the middle of it (like on a F1 car). This means the engine will end up just behind the front seats, giving perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The VW beetle gearbox will do the same thing.

With the standard transverse gearbox I think you'd struggle getting the engine in, as the wheels on a Clio are right at the back of the car so I think the rocker cover would clout the back window. It would probably end up handling like a Beach Buggy/Hillman Imp and you'd end up with 3 bags of cement in the front to get any sembalance of good handling.

If you want it to be arse happy i'd use an inline engine/gearbox, as with enough power any RWD car will swing the arse about with ease. With the rear engine I think you'd find that you'll just understeer everywhere, and the only time you get the back end out will be as you head towards the armco lol.

See ya

Matt

[case]

a turbo 2 would be nice but i'd be too scared to rag it. I could look at the set-up they use though. They're transversely mounted engine aren't they? How do they handle?

Hadn't thought about using the innner wings off a 16v for the engine mounts and susspension tops. That could be a good idea 2live.

[case]

The 25 engine/gearbox is inline, so the driveshafts come out of the middle of it (like on a F1 car). This means the engine will end up just behind the front seats, giving perfect 50/50 weight distribution. The VW beetle gearbox will do the same thing.

With the standard transverse gearbox I think you'd struggle getting the engine in, as the wheels on a Clio are right at the back of the car so I think the rocker cover would clout the back window. It would probably end up handling like a Beach Buggy/Hillman Imp and you'd end up with 3 bags of cement in the front to get any sembalance of good handling.

If you want it to be arse happy i'd use an inline engine/gearbox, as with enough power any RWD car will swing the arse about with ease. With the rear engine I think you'd find that you'll just understeer everywhere, and the only time you get the back end out will be as you head towards the armco lol.

See ya

Matt

I think i could just about fit it in, if not i could always fabricate a bonnet bulge into to boot. lol.

Does everyone else think the 25 box would be a good idea then? Which engine would then be best to couple up to it? the 25 engine at a guess? I surpose i could still use a clio subrame as a starting point for the susspension even if i don't use the engine.

[case]

Another thing that i've thought about this is as i'd be using a front subframe on the rear, i could make it 4 wheel steering if i could change the ratios on the rear rack.

Any thoughts on this?

[clowo16v]

I've just been looking through the options. A Renault 21 turbo uses the 25 gearbox but its strengthened, and as you will probably know the turbo motor can make tonnes of power.

As for rear wheel steering, you'd need an electrically powered steering rack, as it would be very difficult to get a mechanical connection through. I think theres a few new cars with fly by wire steering, so this could be a lot simpler than it looks. You'd have to limit the steering lock to only a few degrees though, and make sure its setup properly so that there is no bumpsteer from the back end.

See ya

Matt

[u33db]

Speak to EP Motorsport about how they did they're twin engined 5...the floorplan is the same as the clio so it should be nearly identical to do once you know how. Alternatively, there's a chap over on RTOC whose dropped the engine in the back of his GTT...road legal...be worth talking to...

[case]

Might try and give EP motorsport a ring in the week and have a chat to them. Also might go over to RTOC for a look as i also thought about a 5 engine in the back.

Thanks for the help.
Mark