Buying a Williams (Noob Guide)

[fab]

Right lets see if we can channel our resources and knowledge and help some of the new members,and those to be, what to try and look for when buying a Williams.
It should just consist of straight forward facts. If your looking for the differences between them then there is a sticky for that.
Anyone in the trade your comments and experience is very welcome.

Here is my experience..

So, Ive gone back to the future, and i'm on the hunt for my all time favorite car. I'm looking at adds on the net, found this club here also, and me mates are spotting them for sale left right and center. I know from the outset that no matter which one I buy I'm gonna end up throwing money at it. How much depends on how much fun your having or want to have!

Lets start with the mileage.
These cars are circa 16 years old. Average mileage per annum on a family car is 12,000 miles. So that would make anything with less than 196K on the clock, below average mileage.

Owners.
Some people are more fussier than others but just because it has had 10 owners or more does not mean it is a bad car. Far from it! It could well have been that the cost of maintenance was spread out throughout all the owners, which is a good thing in my book, rather than have say 3 owners that did nothing but oil changes.

Bodywork.
Easily and without argument the most important element of buying your soon to be old classic. Their French, and they rust badly whether you look after them or not.
IT IS the most expensive and requires the most skilled of pro's to restore the car back to showroom condition (thats if you want it to look, shall we say mint). Look inside the engine bay at the sills, left and right, also get underneath the car if you can and check out the sills. Anything with a sunroof and watch out there is no water puddles in the cabin,or even signs of wet carpet as the rubber around the rear windows do leak on some.
As for the speedlines, get them refurbed. But for the love of god make sure you get the color right!

If your not overly fussy about the exterior look, then just watch out for badly corroded parts such as the sub-frame, rear axle, brake calipers and lines and the exhaust. These from my experience were the most expensive to clean/replace.

Suspension.
Anything with mileage over 80K will probably need suspension renewing. That means shocks(front/rear),top mounts and arb bush's, possibly as well the bottom ball joints and wishbone bush's.
Steering rack track rod ends will need looking after, aswell as the play issue (on the linkage) with the steering rack itself. Also bearings are a bugger to do without a press so bare that in mind also.

Engine.
IDEALLY you should bring along an experienced mechanic or someone you trust knows their reno's,and who can run checks in this area.
But you can assume that if the service history does NOT indicate a timing belt change,water pump change,aux belt change, clutch plate/cable service, coolant flush then these items will need to be carried out ASAP.

Interior.
Make sure your happy with the overall condition of the cabin. Seats,dashboard's even carpets can be found ten a penny.
Door cards, parcel shelf and gearstick leather surround not so much.

Bottomline
So I'm back from the future, and it's been 6 years since I bought my Williams. Purchased new for £2K. Spent £6K.
Condition wise it's as good as I can get it with the resources I have at my disposal today.

Thinking with my head, if I was buying my first Williams today I would easily be prepared to spend £8K on a perfect example, regardless of phase. (that is without the need for getting the spanners out, ever again)
Otherwise, i'd buy a fully loaded track day car.

[fab]

Part 2.

Taking the car home.
If the car has been sitting idle and even sometimes not, the rear brake bias valve will most likely have seized up, possibly the brake calipers aswell. So dont be in a rush to drive it away there and then. There are many a good towing company out there that will happily provide a good service. Also tyre pressures and make of tyres are so important for these cars I cannot stress enough that you check these VERY regularly and before each drive.
If you have no other option but to drive it away, use your common sense and take it easy. They can bite you in the ass before you even know about it!

So you've biten the bullet and got the car home. Where do you start? Lets see if we can help save you some time effort and cash.

Cleaning exterior parts.
Provided engine and gearbox are sound, i'd say 70% of your time will be spent at cleaning and sourcing parts. A sand blaster or someone with one will be your best option. You are also most likely going to require an angle grinder for stubborn bolts. Rear axle, sub-frame, wheels, front hubs, struts, exhaust heat shields are all exterior items that are prone to corrosion and will most definately require cleaning. Some people get them powder coated, some will apply their own protection paint. Either or try and keep colours as close to the original value if you can. Original sub-frames are grey in color. Heat shields are bare metal or white for the fuel tank. If your unsure, ask.
All exterior trim area's can be renewed using your prefered back to black or whatever you wish to call/use for it. As for windscreens, forget about trying to DIY this. If it's chipped get it polished or replaced by a professional company.

Inside the engine bay.
Area's such as the sills could do with added protection. Chances are the slam panel,bonnet holders and bolts for the lamps are showing signs of corrosion so could do with a clean/replacement. Engine mounts are another item that could do with a light sand blast. You'll figure it out on the way. Reno sell the original color paint in spray cans.
You dont need an engine lift to do any of the major serviceable items. Drop the subframe and gearbox out and with a decent 4 tonne jack you should be able to safely/comfortably move the engine left or right enough to get at the areas you need to service. Also, make sure you have good axle stands that dont dig into the car under-sills.

Interior and parts
Nicest thing about working inside the cabin is that the seats are easy to take out. If there is dust or dirt inside the clocks, it is possible to take off the glass cover and give it a good clean. Check the rubber seals on the rear windows. In fact its a good idea to look underneath these as rust is prone to appear under this rubber. Door cards are mostly un-repairable, and as mentioned before the leather surround for the gearstick is next to impossible to find without holes. You may have found a car that has been modified and missing standard items. Dont stress out though, seek and ye shall find!
Use common sense and shop around for spares and ask for discount if buying new. Luckily, Reno released a good few number of the Williams Clio, and many were purchased and stripped out for rallying from birth, or are turning up beyond economical repair, so spares are in good suppy both at home and abroad from enthusiasts and collectors.

Summary.
Hopefully this will get you started. Everything you need to know is on the forum. There is a members guide section also. Trust me, the forum users have asked/answered every conceivable scenario that could possibly arise with the buying/ownership and restoration/preservation and of course modifying of a Williams Clio. That said they still like to be challenged with questions new or old and be reminded how engaging and captivating the Williams to own/drive really is. At the end of the day, it's not how much time or money you have spent on it, it's what the car gives you back in return during ownership. It is one seriously addictive car with the added bonus of being versatile in the modification department. Once your good to go, it's happily capable of being a daily runner, track day car or even just dry stored.

[Jamie.]

Fantastic effort.

I stickied this - be good if we all put something in.

[Markic]

Great guide matey!

Can someone write a few words about how to take out the dashboard? is it too much of a hassle? cheers!

[fab]

Thanks Jamie.

It should be noted that whilst my guide is a general overview of what you can expect to find when viewing a Williams, and the work required there afterwards,
arj256 gives a very thorough guide on the viewing process here;
http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25276

Markic, top of dash easy, just three screws. If your on about the whole dash, I've been fortunate enough not to have had the need to do that!

[2 live]

not forgetting the 2 at the sides ;)

as you say tho. easy enough to do. the lower dash is a bit more hassle. lol

[Markic]

I meant the complete dash guys.
I was thinking about stripping the complete dash off, clean it, clean the ventilation, and soundproof it abit, to have less sounds from the dash.

[fab]

Markic, haynes manual is gonna be your best bet or look around for a Matrix removal guide as it almost involves the same thing.


not forgetting the 2 at the sides

2live you been sleepin in the car again to remember that lol

[Markic]

cheers mate, I suppose it will be the same thing, as the heater matrix is under the dash :D

[Wobba]

Great stuff Fab. I may contribute in my own small way soon :)

[fab]

Most certainly Wobba.
A piece on how to boost (and I should say tame) the necessary "one point twenty-one jiggawatts" would be most desireable :D

[dimma]

One thing i thought I should mention when buying a Williams is always check the serial number plate on the engine block. I have heard of some with the 1.8 16v engine in them simply because it was the cheaper road to go when somthing happened the Williams engine.when a 1.8 engine has the Williams manifold on it and the blue spot taken off the dipstick it looks identical to the Williams engine.the Williams engine plate will read F7R A 700 and the 1.8 16v will read F7P.the plate can be seen if the airbox is removed is it located at the inlet manifold side at the bottom of the block at the flywheel end.It's the only way of telling if it's the genuine Williams engine.

[robi1000]

Not really. Plates can be changed. Only real way to check if it's F7P or F7R is by checking what is casted on the block (if there is F7R written on it). Other way is to measure the stroke through one of the spark plug holes. F7R will have 93mm stroke (F7P 83mm).

[dimma]

Just saying as that happen to me 2 years ago.I went to see a Williams 2 that needed a gearbox,I was for buying the car until I checked the engine plate and there it was F7P.would it not be hard to change the plate without it looking like someone changed it?

[MatBrown]

Nah, it's only riveted on.

[fab]

Just wanted to throw something together whilst this stuff is relatively still fresh in my head.


Williams Strut/Damper
If you absolutely want to maintain the factory release set height, and keep the standard feeling, then you have no other alternative but to use OE supplied shocks and springs. They will not be the dampers originally fitted to the car as DeCarbon as a manufacturer are long gone. I do not believe the original dampers are serviceable.
Renault use Kayaba as a supplier today for the front struts and similar for the rear damper. As to whether they choose to switch supplier in the future remains to be seen. So for the standard look and feel that is what you have to contend with.
Don't want to start giving opinions on these but if you begin to upgrade any other suspension components,including the tyres, these dampers will begin to show their weakness.


Williams Aftermarket Strut
Notice the way the heading says 'Williams' strut/damper and not 1.8 16V? This is where some confusion occurs to newcomers as many sellers advertise their products as Williams/16V fitment. As a direct replacement they are not compatible.ViaRouge are a typical example of this.
The Williams has wider track than a valver therefore if you purchase 16V struts you will need camber correcting/adjusting bolts to re-align the suspension back to factory default. The rear dampers are a direct fit for both models, however rates may be different.

Bilstein and AVO are the only mainstream suspension manufacturer's that I know of who produce an aftermarket front shock/strut which are a direct fit. AVO's is a 'shortened damper' therefore the standard coil may not suit.
The bilstein B6 comes in a performance and a sport version. The part number for the sport version is VE3-4183/ 600VE34183 and will work with the standard spring. Expect a 15mm drop using the standard spring. With an Eibach pro-kit,-25mm.

Bilstein also do a B4 strut for the 1.8 16V, a B8 sprint version and coilovers for both models.
The B4 strut would be regarded as a direct replacement for the standard OE supplied one on the valver.I do not know if it lowers or raises the car height, but chances are it would be minimal either way.The B8 sprint is a shortened damper that both would require that you use camber bolts.


Coils/Springs
A suspension coil spring is designed to set the ride height of the car and absorb the bumps on the road. The damper's main job is to stop the spring from oscillating.
So can I use the standard coil with any after market damper and that would maintain my ride height I here you say? Well the answer to this kind of contradicts my statement on what the purpose of the suspension spring on a car is.
Yes you can use the original spring but the car will be lowered more than standard,even if by a few millimetres, because when you screw on the top suspension mount nut onto the strut rod it will compress the coil just that bit more. With a shortened strut you will require a matching rate spring no matter what the marketing buffs tell you.

The original springs are color coded with 2 white paint marks. It is a linear spring in design. A standard 172 has the same spring, marked white/white.
The springs from the Mark 2 clio’s can also be used,such as a 182. Cup springs are generally regarded to be a tad firmer and very likely will alter the car height.
Aftermarket springs are ten a penny. Some are progressive rate or dual rate in design, whereby they are soft enough for the initial few millimeters of movement and then the rate increases as the coil is compressed more. Cannot offer any feedback on these but most people who come onto the forum come crying looking for standard springs to replace the one's in cars which have been lowered by the use of these coils. If you don't match the damper to the coil your clutching at straws and highly likely going to get a bad ride. Renault don't publish their spring rates like the Japanese car manufacturer's do.
In general the standard spring works well with a mild performance damper but the standard damper does not work well with a lowered or harder spring.
So that's about all I know about coils springs for the Williams at this point.WTF? No mention of those ghastly expensive things they call coilovers!Sure, they can be used on the road, and they can be adjusted up and down,left,right,soft,hard whatever, but they were/are designed for motorsport use. Unless you know your corner weights or have a suspension guru in your pocket you are unlikely to experience the full benefits of these for the price you will pay for them. On top of that they would require regular servicing.
It is a very complex area and one which draws many discussions but if you are generally happy with the feeling,the other suspension components are being compliant and if it inspires confidence in your driving then you should be going in the right direction with your suspension setup.


Kayaba and Bilstein B6
6485

Original Decarbon Rear Damper
6486

OE supplied and ViaRouge
6487

Delphi Decarbon Performance
6488

Original Suspension Springs
6490

[hny]

wow it has put me off buying one reading all this as i do not know much about them .:???:

[amsgoldsmith]

Can someone write a few words about how to take out the dashboard? is it too much of a hassle? cheers!

[jasonsmith]

Sure, you can.