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Wobba
20-02-2011, 13:26
As some of you know, I am sorting some fairly large stuff out with the car (again), which will solve the missing power issue with 0217 since having quite a lot of stuff done to it last year.

The car is currently over with Dan at 519 Automotive (http://www.519automotive.co.uk).

I will be replacing the Megane engine with an Hillpower rebuilt F7R700 (Willy engine) but probably using a Hillpower Megane 714 cylinder head ported etc. instead of my APD cylinder head, not 100% sure yet. The 225 Catcams will be replaced with some 213 Catcams to take advantage of the fact the engine is a 12.5:1 high compression block with all forged internals:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSC004181.jpg

Engine in the back of teh T5 on it's way hoem :D

It's all in bits now, and I don't need the modified inlet as I have ITB's. There's a few things to do, such as the gearbox needs a new output shaft seal I think and the clutch release bearing has rattled ever since I got it back last year (annoying as Summeh and I had sorted this the last time we had the engine out!)

Quite a few people have had a peep at the Hillpower head and have remarked on how nice it has been done. My main concern was having to port it further to match the Chadil ITB manifold, but the size difference is tiny and could in theory assist with mixing the fuel with air before entering the combustion chamber, so hopefully it will be fine.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSC00424.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSC00422.jpg

The manifold is undergoing some work as there was for some unknown reason a crack on a little part of it. So that's being welded, and I have also requested they machine a second hole in intake number 3 so I can put a 2nd vacuum feed for the brakes, as there is only one currently. To put all the vacuum demands through a single source can cause an imbalance, so I will be spreading the load and hopefully improving the braking for the car too!

As the engine is forged, I can get away with higher revs, and the cams I have will probably have power higher up the range anyway, so I think an 8k RPM limit will be set, maybe higher depending on results at the mapping session, not sure yet. As such I will be using a Jenvey fuel rail in the bodies, not the head as it was before. I was thinking of eight Megane injectors, but I have changed my mind (more stuff to go wrong!). I am going to use Saab 346cc red injectors as I don't think the Megane ones will cope very well, assuming nicely over 200 bhp here. I'm going to use some fancy fuel regulator as well. I may keep the one on the new engine though as it is an unusual item:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSC004211.jpg

Car will also be having some minor welding to sort a bit of corrosion on one sill, will all be replaced soon enough after it goes to the bodyshop anyway.

On top of all this I will be reuniting my car with a lambda sensor. Currently, it does not have one.

Finally, I got really lucky on Friday. I predict the car will all be up and running with a base map by the end of February so I called Emerald to speak to Dave Walker about booking the car in there. A bit of a trek from home, down here in the sunny south, but I've heard many good things about Dave Walker and read his engine management book from front to back about three times and used it for reference loads in my own mapping sessions on my Emerald ECU, so am keen to see what he can do!

Now, the other two times I have rung there has been a five or six week backlog to sort a dyno and mapping session out. It was the same story this time :( BUT, as I was about to put the phone down, a lady there piped up saying there had been a cancellation five minutes earlier, and could I make the 3rd of March! 'YES I CAN!' I yelped excitedly. So, she booked me in, asking the type of car and spec...she laughed after I was still listing the spec after about a minute and said: 'so basically the full works then...'

Oh yes, the full works, sounds about right...watch this space...

Evogone
20-02-2011, 13:37
Another chapter starts on the Wobba'mobile'...

Exciting times ahead. :D

Wobba
20-02-2011, 14:21
Haha yes! Another episode, and hopefully the last of a mechanical nature!

Evogone
20-02-2011, 15:02
Any pics of the APD head in caparison to the Hillpower one ?

cliokongen
20-02-2011, 19:59
YES! :D

This should be interesting...
Keep the updates coming.

walters300
20-02-2011, 20:07
:P This should be the grand finalle now and I hope for your sanity you get 230bhp :wink:

ThRaXaIR
20-02-2011, 21:14
Good work Wobdog!

Wobba
20-02-2011, 21:45
Any pics of the APD head in caparison to the Hillpower one ?

Dan says it looks fine, I've not seen inside the APD one yet.

Yes :D This will be fun I hope!

230 bhp is probably not going to happen though :p I'd expect about 210 ish for now till the engine gets a bit more run in. It only has 1k miles so far.

Jamie.
21-02-2011, 00:21
Did you get a refund off stan or is this more hard earned cash on the car? Got to admire your resilience.

Wobba
21-02-2011, 02:25
Did you get a refund off stan or is this more hard earned cash on the car? Got to admire your resilience.

I'd rather not have people dragging all that up again, thanks. Not because it bothers me, but I think there's been enough on-line mud-slinging. What's done is done.

As for the resilience...yea, lol...thing is, how can I give up now when the solution is just one step away, after so many steps I've already taken to get this far? This car has the potential to be an absolute animal, the pieces are all there. It is not a matter of resilience anymore, but common sense :)

fab
21-02-2011, 12:03
dibbs on the modified inlet :D

sideways danny
21-02-2011, 12:56
dibbs on the modified inlet :D

too late ;)

fab
21-02-2011, 13:14
:beamme:
:wink:

Wobba
22-02-2011, 22:36
dibbs on the modified inlet :D

too late ;)

Sorry fab, Dan pipped you too the post the other day for the inlet.

Wobba
23-02-2011, 23:07
Some more piccies :) These were taken by Dan at 519 Automotive, specifically to give me updates as he knows I get withdrawal symptoms without Willy :)

Out comes a beastie:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0539.jpg

THe timing of the old cams measured to see if the problem with the old build can be diagnosed. Inlet was very advanced I think and exhaust cam was retarded, but not by much:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0548.jpg

Out comes the old:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0557.jpg

Along comes the new:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0541.jpg

Hill Power head checked before 213 cams are fitted (valver cams shown there):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0549.jpg

Some new bits:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0559.jpg

Saab injectors. Previously owned by Dan for his build, now donated to the Wobbamobile:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0558.jpg

Got some other bits yet to do still, but good progress being made by Dan and I think you'll agree it all looks very promising work! We are on schedule for the mapping session on the 3rd March, which is quite a novel experience really ;)

REALLY EXCITED!!

Coops
24-02-2011, 00:03
hope all goes well mate, couldnt be in safer hands than mr sideways

SUPRISE

:P

Wobba
24-02-2011, 00:21
hope all goes well mate, couldnt be in safer hands than mr sideways

SUPRISE

:P

Thanks Ben!

robi1000
24-02-2011, 00:25
Hmmm, I could use some parts shown here... :lol:

Wobba
24-02-2011, 00:29
I know you could mate lol.

cliokongen
24-02-2011, 00:44
Looking good Wobba.... :D
New guess the bhp game perhaps?

Wobba
24-02-2011, 01:15
Looking good Wobba.... :D
New guess the bhp game perhaps?

I won't do a guess the BHP game :) I don't want to raise expectations this time. There could be unforeseen issues, but thus far it's looking good and the ingredients are there for a belter of an engine build. Nick Hill and Dave Walker are both well known and respected and Dan has met all his promises and put up with my repeated offers of advice on how he should do things he already knows how to do, and multitude of questions, lol. I am a bit nervous after the bad luck I've had :(

The engine has done 1k miles, so it's more or less run in but knowing what new engines are like, they don't free up completely for some time unless you rag it everywhere so I imagine the figures wont be the best they can be straight out of the box, though I am hoping for over 200.


looking good Wobba, hope all goes to plan this time. Like u say u've got all the ingredients for a very quick car!!

When u've got used to the power send it up to Martin for some weight improvements!!....Socket/Torx set and some snips he's away!!

Lol. Yes, thank you, and thanks for the advice :D Hopefully it will take me some time till I get bored of the power this time :p

LEIGH-ANNE
24-02-2011, 15:52
Seems funny seeing your car in dans garage. Then i spot lees, and gus's... awww

16v_paddy
24-02-2011, 22:01
Seems funny seeing your car in dans garage. Then i spot lees, and gus's... awww

Well he'd better keep that 2 litre heap of shite away from my car or there will be trouble :P

Wobba
24-02-2011, 22:15
Seems funny seeing your car in dans garage. Then i spot lees, and gus's... awww

Well he'd better keep that 2 litre heap of shite away from my car or there will be trouble :P

It's ok, the sheer brutality of my car physically repels the gayness of your pink chick-wagon.

Wobba
25-02-2011, 12:11
Big problem arose yesterday as Dan and Ktec could not get Catcams to send over their back order batch of cams, including my 213's, which are late. It meant the deadline for my mapping date would be missed. A big blow to my plans :(

No other cam manufacturer could meet the deadline either, we tried Piper and Colombo & Bariania as well (no response from them at all to date, plus their cam profiling is either too mild for road for me or waaaay too bonkers with their motorsport range lol...though I was tempted).

I decided to get on to Catcams in Belgium myself, to explain why I needed this part urgently, and could they please help, and I didn't care how much it cost. After looking into it and various communiques going on between themselves in the background, they agreed to rob another international shipment of some 213 cams for us and have someone at their warehouse to stay late and arrange an overnight courier ;)

Sorted!

Matthew Saville at Catcams was very helpful in organising this at their end. It only cost £30 to have them ship them over separately from their main UK bulk shipment, worth every penny, as otherwise I could not get another mapping slot for over 4 weeks at Emerald!

In return, they want to see the graphs and figures of my final dyno run after mapping to see the effect of their cams. Be hard to tell as there is so much changing with the engine, but I will send them nevertheless.

Hooray! 8)

northy
25-02-2011, 12:57
so what parts are going to be left from the APD build & what is not ?

Are they new T/B's or existing ones with new bits added ?

sideways danny
25-02-2011, 13:05
so what parts are going to be left from the APD build & what is not ?

Are they new T/B's or existing ones with new bits added ?

All that will remain really is the cam pulleys, the ITBs, and the emerald ECU and loom.

Wobba
25-02-2011, 14:35
so what parts are going to be left from the APD build & what is not ?

Are they new T/B's or existing ones with new bits added ?

All that will remain really is the cam pulleys, the ITBs, and the emerald ECU and loom.

Yes. There's a few bits that will remain like catch tank and stuff. The basic neat engine bay will obviously stay neat and tidy as Craig did a good job there, and hopefully look better with the addition of a few other shiny bits :)

northy
25-02-2011, 14:49
have u bench flowed both heads (APD vs Hill Power) to see which flows the best ?

snowman
25-02-2011, 14:58
Hurry up and shift this thing Dan as im waiting on you ......lmao,nice updates 8)

cliokongen
25-02-2011, 18:18
Nice Dan.... ;-)

I want 213's as well..... ;-)

Wobba
25-02-2011, 18:25
have u bench flowed both heads (APD vs Hill Power) to see which flows the best ?

Nah. Decided not to split the head from the block in the end and the manifold matches the head ports so npnp.

Just spoke to Dan. My cams have arrived! And so has the manifold after it was repaired due to a crack at one of the bolts holes...possible overtightening, maybe the fact no gasket was used may be a reason? Not sure why there was no gasket?

Obviously we need to use the verniers on the old 225's. Dan's just informed me there is a load of grease or paste(?) in one of the pulley bolt holes and it sheared off when he's taken it off. Apparently it has been bolted on and threaded then put back in and secured using this stuff. Half the pulley bolt is stuck inside.

Not sure how incompetent you have to be to thread a bolt like that...personally it hurts my brain to think down to that level of ineptitude and carelessness.

Will have to have the rest of that that bolt removed somehow.

midge
25-02-2011, 20:16
Personally i'd be making a phone call and asking why it was like that!

northy
25-02-2011, 20:40
have u bench flowed both heads (APD vs Hill Power) to see which flows the best ?

Nah. Decided not to split the head from the block in the end and the manifold matches the head ports so npnp.


Wobba - dont u want to have the best head to start with then you know its flowed as good as possible within the limitations of the design ???

cliokongen
25-02-2011, 21:49
Who does independant flow testing?

Michael

Laine_16v
25-02-2011, 22:53
Wouldnt even bother contemplating ripping cylinder heads off to check for flow.

Nick hill was the best in the business for years, leave that engine complete.

sideways danny
26-02-2011, 00:06
Wouldnt even bother contemplating ripping cylinder heads off to check for flow.

Nick hill was the best in the business for years, leave that engine complete.this is exactly what IS happening. Still here reversing issues now at 11pm. Half the cam pulley bolts were way over tight, and have rounded. Had to weld nuts on to remove the bolts.

Wobba
26-02-2011, 13:58
Wouldnt even bother contemplating ripping cylinder heads off to check for flow.

Nick hill was the best in the business for years, leave that engine complete.

That's what we decided, several other people have said the same.

As for the sheared bolt in the camshaft, fairly sure it can be removed and any thread damage repaired so it can be used safely.

sideways danny
26-02-2011, 19:07
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q59/sidewaysdanny/DSCF0572.jpg

:shock:

snowman
26-02-2011, 19:24
thats just blatant gross negligence and at over £500 a set of cams wouldnt be happy at all

northy
26-02-2011, 20:16
so are you checking the bottom end over before fitting it / removing the head for a inspection ?

Justin..
26-02-2011, 21:58
I bet it's bottomed out on the grease when torquing up!

sideways danny
26-02-2011, 22:04
so are you checking the bottom end over before fitting it / removing the head for a inspection ?

no, that would be a massive waste of time, and Wobbas money for extra parts. Already said in this thread that the head is not being removed, as to do so would be madness.

Justin, I did think that at first, but the fact it's just that one cam with grease on the bolt sets off a lot of alarm bells

Wobba
26-02-2011, 22:18
I think a compression test is all we need for now. Be great to rip it to bits and poke about, but I am sure the seller has told me everything about the engine and I don't have anything to worry about.

Wobba
26-02-2011, 22:18
^^ Famous last words ;)

Coops
26-02-2011, 22:33
whats the requirement for the damaged cam? or just to sell on? presume this isnt holding up the build as new cams are being fitted? pulley was free from damage?

Laine_16v
26-02-2011, 22:45
I think a compression test is all we need for now. Be great to rip it to bits and poke about, but I am sure the seller has told me everything about the engine and I don't have anything to worry about.

It doesnt need a compression test!! Just bolt the ****er in and get it mapped :P

16v_paddy
26-02-2011, 23:00
Just get that sexy as fook borescope in there to have a look

Wobba
26-02-2011, 23:17
whats the requirement for the damaged cam? or just to sell on? presume this isnt holding up the build as new cams are being fitted? pulley was free from damage?

It needs to be sold on to help pay for all this work.

It is not holding up the build, no. But if we had not managed to twist Catcams arm to send the 213's over from Belgium direct, it would have been a bigger problem.

Wobba
26-02-2011, 23:18
I think a compression test is all we need for now. Be great to rip it to bits and poke about, but I am sure the seller has told me everything about the engine and I don't have anything to worry about.

It doesnt need a compression test!! Just bolt the f**ker in and get it mapped :P

+1

I will test it though just out of interest ;)

Wobba
27-02-2011, 01:36
Much magic has been worked at 519 Automotive in the last few days....Dan's been waving his wand about again...

213 Catcams in ;)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0584.jpg

Damaged bolt lip repaired:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0581.jpg

It seems the manifold could not seal properly due to the edge making contact here (air leak, anyone?):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0580.jpg

It has been machined back a bit now.

Old vacuum hose hole plugged. Notice there is now a gasket between head and inlet manifold:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0579.jpg

New double feed fitted for brake servo:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0576.jpg

No introduction required:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0569-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0574.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0585.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0573.jpg

Much F7R goodness 8)

Jamie.
27-02-2011, 02:25
Looks good. So the problems on the last engine seem to be unravelling. Personally I'd be going to a smalls claim court for all previous monies spent with him plus remedy work on new parts. I think you would win the case with ease. However would be some payout negotiation I'd say. Reckon you would get 70% of amount claimed.

zmaster2k
27-02-2011, 10:20
Agree with Jamie tbh

Coops
27-02-2011, 10:36
agree with above

and dont even want to think about Dan waving his wand about :wink:

cliokongen
27-02-2011, 18:00
Using the cat cams specified timing figures - lift @ tdc?

Looking good...... ;-)

Justin..
27-02-2011, 18:46
Dan you neeeed to get the proper Meggy distributor cover plate!

dkrevs
27-02-2011, 19:25
Last picture is just :droool: Awesome... 8)

northy
28-02-2011, 09:49
so are you checking the bottom end over before fitting it / removing the head for a inspection ?

no, that would be a massive waste of time, and Wobbas money for extra parts. Already said in this thread that the head is not being removed, as to do so would be madness.

^^ Famous last words indeed wobba.

Correct me if im wrong but surely doing all this work on a unknown bottom end, even if it is 'only for your own piece of mind' is a bit silly to me.

You spend ££££'s on the last engine which we later found out to have a weak bottom end, and u were never happy. To me i would of made sure i had a sound base to start with! And now your spending yet more money on engines.

If it doesn't make the power this time (no offense to Danny or anyone else intended) wouldn't it be nice to say to Dave Walker on his rollers - yes every consumable (gasket, bearing, seal etc) has been replaced, cams, liners, crank & pistons measured etc and it is all blueprinted and 100%. I have the flowed head with the figures here, the matched ports the tested in injectors, and this is how much you can swing the timing of the cams if you need to do....rather than just taking a flyer on yet another 'used' bottom end and hoping it does the numbers this time around?

Sorry if you have this information from the guy who sold u the new engine (i don't known), but as we all know, unless u have all the receipts / build data to go with it - i would never trust a unknown engine unless i had to.

Good luck though Dan, I'm looking forward to seeing how big your smile will be from this car :winkey:

chip
28-02-2011, 13:15
I can see the point that pulling an engine apart isnt cheap (especially these renault motors as decent quality head gaskets etc are quite expensive) so to do so just to look at it seems like a waste of money, but I must say Im with Northy that if you are actually paying someone else to map it, it seems like a good investment to check everything over first, I know several people who have paid good money for mapping on bad engines.

So glad I do all my own mapping myself so its not an issue to me personally, I would hate to spend out on the transport of the car to the rollers and paying for the mapping etc only for it to then go to waste if the engine itself has any mechanical issues.

Certainly a dilema

Wobba
28-02-2011, 14:17
Northy, I want to respond to the suggestion that the the old engine was not 100% before I took it to APD, in your post above:

The old engine was fine before it got to APD. It made good power before work started on it. I never had a reason to suspect it was failing, and when we fitted it, Summeh and I were impressed with it's condition.

Also, is it not unreasonable to expect a professional to check things? Or should it be expected a punter should have to test the work of professionals each time? Personally, I believe it's part of the service you pay for.

I disagree: It's not silly to correct issues with the engine as and when we find them. It makes perfect sense, even if the bottom end is pooh.

It's not a completely unknown bottom end, I've seen it, and the receipts. Checks out fine. The head work looks excellent.

Also, as far as checking the new engine goes, how far do you go? Do you strip an engine down that someone tells you is already tip top and measure clearances etc. The cost becomes prohibitive for this as it gets to a stage where I may as well have had an engine rebuilt for the purpose anyway, not to mention the additional time involved. I don't have the luxury of time, and I don't have spare cars lying about that I can use instead or girlfriends/wives/family to drive me about. In this case I decided to leave it be, and if there is an issue, because we have fixed everything else, we will have eliminated all the other problems it can be. It's had a visual inspection, it looks damn good, and I have seen the receipts from Hill Power.

Yes, it could turn sour, but weighing up the risk vs cost and time I've decided the risk is acceptable, and it will receive a compression test before it goes for final mapping. I understand the bottom end aspect of this is my own risk, not Dan's, unless he times it wrong of course or does something really daft! This time if the bottom end is a fail, I can only blame myself and misplaced trust in my fellow man.

northy
28-02-2011, 16:44
No problems Wobba, glad you can see the direction I am coming from with my above post - Good luck with the build and keep us updated with your progress.

Wobba
28-02-2011, 17:41
I don't mind acknowledging there is an element of risk attached to doing things this way with the new engine, but when it borders on to suggesting fault was mine with the last round of engine problems is a touchy subject!

Laine_16v
28-02-2011, 19:19
Wheres all this worry and risk coming from i dont understand...

Its a rebuilt hillpower engine with uprated internals and 1k on the clock, the thing will be ****ing bullet proof.

2 live
28-02-2011, 20:08
hope it all goes well for you this time mate. but i must admit....im with northy on this one too. id be getting everything replaced too. rings/shells/mains etc. would be par for the course imho when building an engine like this. time/cost is an issue, but with a working car already, albeit down on power, you had time to rebuild the new btm end then it would be just a straigh swap, drive there, pull old lump out, swap what bits you wanted and drive home the same day. simples.

MatBrown
28-02-2011, 20:19
Why rebuild a rebuilt engine?

2 live
28-02-2011, 20:29
peace of mind. for the extra cost while its out, would make sense.

Wobba
28-02-2011, 20:47
Why rebuild a rebuilt engine?

There is the always the chance a seller may mislead a buyer to get a sale I guess. Only Matty W can answer this question in relation to this engine, it was his and he had the work done. He struck me as being a honest kind of guy and had receipts he showed me but forgot to give me when I drove off.

Coops
28-02-2011, 21:08
i bought the rad from this engine, went in at same time according to mattyw, and it was mint as well, lovely clean coolant came out all over my boot :-) :lol:

northy
28-02-2011, 21:13
but when it borders on to suggesting fault was mine with the last round of engine problems is a touchy subject!

I never said it was your fault, but i dont think things were done the right way then and the BIG problem never got rectified as you well know. I more than most, know how touch this subject is.

northy
28-02-2011, 21:17
Why rebuild a rebuilt engine?

There is the always the chance a seller may mislead a buyer to get a sale I guess. Only Matty W can answer this question in relation to this engine, it was his and he had the work done. He struck me as being a honest kind of guy and had receipts he showed me but forgot to give me when I drove off.

i did say at the end of my post - if he is happy with the reciepts etc then cool....get it installed and back out on track. And im not doubting any work that the previous owner has done.
But any kind of serious engine build should stripped and inspected in my eyes to eleminate any guess work so you know its 100% yourself.

Can i ask a few more questions lol -
It was a Hill Power engine originally, badged as a F7P??
What did matty do it to 1,000 miles ago and why did it need it??

Cheers northy x

cliolord
28-02-2011, 21:51
Wheres all this worry and risk coming from i dont understand...

Its a rebuilt hillpower engine with uprated internals and 1k on the clock, the thing will be f***king bullet proof.

Nick Hill knew EXACTLY what he was doing with the F7 engine. Slam it in and open the throttle. If that engine isn't 100%, I will eat my keyboard

Wobba
28-02-2011, 22:46
but when it borders on to suggesting fault was mine with the last round of engine problems is a touchy subject!

I never said it was your fault, but i dont think things were done the right way then and the BIG problem never got rectified as you well know. I more than most, know how touch this subject is.

They were not done the right way, no. In hindsight a compression or leak down test should have been carried out straight away and the BIG problem diagnosed. Stan had messed me about though with the time he took and things I found wrong within days of getting the car back, and to be honest a few people had started to make me really doubt him, that along with the final straw when APD was burgled and he lost most of his stuff anyway led me to decide not to go back there as to me it was beyond doubt he could not have done anything about the issues I had anyway, and I would just end up losing my car even longer, not to mention the distance I would need to travel.

Anyway, I will probably be emailing Stan tonight suggesting a course of action, which could solve this debate to both our satisfactions.




Why rebuild a rebuilt engine?

There is the always the chance a seller may mislead a buyer to get a sale I guess. Only Matty W can answer this question in relation to this engine, it was his and he had the work done. He struck me as being a honest kind of guy and had receipts he showed me but forgot to give me when I drove off.

i did say at the end of my post - if he is happy with the reciepts etc then cool....get it installed and back out on track. And im not doubting any work that the previous owner has done.
But any kind of serious engine build should stripped and inspected in my eyes to eleminate any guess work so you know its 100% yourself.

Can i ask a few more questions lol -
It was a Hill Power engine originally, badged as a F7P??
What did matty do it to 1,000 miles ago and why did it need it??

Cheers northy x

Matty W replaced the F7R badge with his old F7P one. I can only speculate why, but I think I know.

I don't fully understand your second question. It was rebuilt 1k miles ago, I think in 2008, sat in his white Mk1 for ages.




Wheres all this worry and risk coming from i dont understand...

Its a rebuilt hillpower engine with uprated internals and 1k on the clock, the thing will be f***king bullet proof.

Nick Hill knew EXACTLY what he was doing with the F7 engine. Slam it in and open the throttle. If that engine isn't 100%, I will eat my keyboard

I agree, this is why I bought the engine after about 2 months quizzing Matty about it. If it has issues, then I will soon find out and deal with it.

If not, game on ;)

If I had a long term project car that did not need to be on the road all the time and I could work on over a looooong period of time and leave in a garage, then I would do an engine rebuild myself and work on it meticulously, and one day maybe I will. In the meantime I consider the risk and costs worth it to get the bugger back on the road and working as it should be, scaring modern hatch drivers with what will hopefully be a decent power figure for a n/a road car like this.

northy
28-02-2011, 22:55
8)

sideways danny
01-03-2011, 01:08
I think it's only fair that i comment on the engine condition, as i'm the one working on it. So far there's not a single thing on the hillpower engine which hasn't been IMMACULATE. Every part i've had to take off to swap for new/alternative bits has been perfect. Even the old set of standard cams looks to have been chemically cleaned, and there's not a mark on any of the lobes or journals. Serious attention to detail.

The suggestion of pulling the engine apart to rebuild it is lunacy. Would make buying it in the first place pointless, and the old 714 could have just been built with new parts (an early suggested plan, until this engine came up)

I dont think i've had to work on a used engine thats been such a pleasure before. I have no doubt that the insides are just as good as everything else

sideways danny
01-03-2011, 01:17
Case in point, this was immediately after removing the cam carriers. This looks like it's never run at all, for an engine to be like that after even only 1000 miles means there is NOTHING to worry about

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/DSCF0549.jpg

Wobba
01-03-2011, 01:38
I think it's only fair that i comment on the engine condition, as i'm the one working on it. So far there's not a single thing on the hillpower engine which hasn't been IMMACULATE. Every part i've had to take off to swap for new/alternative bits has been perfect. Even the old set of standard cams looks to have been chemically cleaned, and there's not a mark on any of the lobes or journals. Serious attention to detail.

The suggestion of pulling the engine apart to rebuild it is lunacy. Would make buying it in the first place pointless, and the old 714 could have just been built with new parts (an early suggested plan, until this engine came up)

I dont think i've had to work on a used engine thats been such a pleasure before. I have no doubt that the insides are just as good as everything else

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa y!

dkrevs
01-03-2011, 11:29
Wobba, you had 714 BE before? What will you do with it?

Wobba
01-03-2011, 11:42
Wobba, you had 714 BE before? What will you do with it?

Investigation then possible rebuild or low compression turbo build.

A&P
01-03-2011, 12:59
Hope this all goes well for you bud, I think danny is on ball with this one. Good luck mate.

A&P
01-03-2011, 13:00
ON THE BALL , on ball :roll:

Wobba
01-03-2011, 14:15
ON THE BALL , on ball :roll:

lol yes he is :)



Apologies to anyone who got the shitty end of the stick from me yesterday, was very highly strung!! Partly because of this bloody car, and other crap too.

Allllll over soon...

*deep breaths*

Annnnd Relax.

Clio-Girl
01-03-2011, 14:38
i know what you need Wobba... a nice trackday at bedford, that will sort you out :wink:

Smokey McPot
01-03-2011, 19:43
If you come to Bedford I will take you for Pizza and wine after.

northy
01-03-2011, 22:26
i know what you need Wobba... a nice trackday at bedford, that will sort you out :wink:

i know what he really needs lol a car making the power it deserves too.


Dan - what was the need to rebuild this engine 1,000 miles ago from when Hill power first did it ?

Wobba
02-03-2011, 12:34
i know what you need Wobba... a nice trackday at bedford, that will sort you out :wink:

i know what he really needs lol a car making the power it deserves too.


Dan - what was the need to rebuild this engine 1,000 miles ago from when Hill power first did it ?

Hill Power did rebuild it to it's current 12.5:1 spec 1k miles ago, and did the head at same time.

Wobba
02-03-2011, 12:37
If you come to Bedford I will take you for Pizza and wine after.

Hehe, thanks dude :D Very kind offer, which I may take you up on if I come as I am so broke now I cant afford to eat.

Smokey McPot
02-03-2011, 20:58
No problemo. :)

stevie_b
02-03-2011, 21:38
Did it all get finished in time? Is Dan on his way up to Dave Walker's as we speak?

Coops
02-03-2011, 23:02
why bother at all if your going to build a better engine from the 714 lump ;-)

boooooost = god :-)

sideways danny
03-03-2011, 17:16
222.5

robi1000
03-03-2011, 17:26
If that's power...

:groupwave:

A&P
03-03-2011, 17:46
:shock: Well done guys :D great news.very happy for you wobba.

cliokongen
03-03-2011, 17:47
What a nice figure..... ;-)

Tell us more!

dkrevs
03-03-2011, 17:49
8) 8) 8) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

A&P
03-03-2011, 17:50
Also very impressive turn around time danny :wink:

Tommo
03-03-2011, 18:13
Finally!! Very happy for you Wobba :D

sideways danny
03-03-2011, 20:27
oh, and 173 lb/ft :p

robi1000
03-03-2011, 20:29
oh, and 173 lb/ft :p

Whoa! That's a very good result!

Evogone
03-03-2011, 20:31
Graph will be interesting......to compare etc.

ThRaXaIR
03-03-2011, 21:23
HOLY SHIT, that thing must go like stink. Congratz Wobba! x

Candy Piper
03-03-2011, 21:33
Well well well, Nick Hill proves it again.

THE best UK F7 engine tuner bar non.

Tommo
03-03-2011, 21:57
I agree, top bloke! Such a shame he's no longer in the tuning business... :(

2 live
03-03-2011, 22:01
not as good as dan it seems....52.5bhp from his cam settings and bodies....extremelyimpressive.

Laine_16v
03-03-2011, 22:49
not as good as dan it seems....52.5bhp from his cam settings and bodies....extremelyimpressive.

What are you on about the old engine had a shagged bottom end.

52bhp is from a complete rebuilt nickhill high compression engine and new cams. Its not so hard to believe.

Evogone
03-03-2011, 23:33
Its about avg for the spec......

Glad its where is should be, i bet hes loving it.

Wobba
03-03-2011, 23:59
Hey guys :D

Thank you all so much! I LUV U GUYS!

It has been a mental couple of days, everything came to a head today and it was intense. I was up till about 3 a.m. the previous night, virtually got disowned by half my family (long story), had about 2 hours sleep, drove to Dave Walkers on an interesting base map.

Got to Emerald. These guys are really good and a nice bunch to talk too. I can't begin to tell you all the little things we did at the dyno, a story for another day.

I watched the figures on the display, I was really pleased as it was already matching my old figures early on and I thought maybe another 20 bhp and I be happy...Dan then pointed out it was only like 50% throttle and power at the wheels hahahahahaaaaa NOT the fly as I thought: OMFG!!!

On top of that Dave retarded the ignition as the engine was detonating, the advance used on the map is NOTHING compared to my old engine. Could wind up the advance as well as it was on total wank RON 95 fuel ;) The high compression engine has so much more volumetric efficiency, it's totally different, can clearly see it's high comp. The Emerald guys were impressed with the engine ;)

Had a little issue with the car wheel spinning on the dyno. Dave thinks it has more power to give.

The 213 cams...I thought they would be a bit too wild for driving about, but no, I have been pootling around as I do quite happily, up hills at 20mph in 5th gear lol. It's fine!

Of course, when you press the loud pedal, it just sucks you in, the lower gears are just ****ING BONKERS. Even half throttle is enough to see off most people, and the torque wave is awesome. Full throttle in 2nd is, frankly, incredible.

Well, I really need rest. Work tomorrow :( I am shattered.

Dan was a legend. Well done mate ;)

Anyway, here are the results. I did them in colour I think but its come out black and white, no biggie but you cannot see the AFR reading. I will do another but I need sleeps now.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20coming%20of%20teh%20High%20Comp/File0013.jpg

Thanks for everyone's kind words. It has been a tough battle getting this far, and there is more to come I think...but for now, it's just time to enjoy the fruits of success ;)

walters300
04-03-2011, 00:12
and wobba rides off into the sunset :wink:

Wobba
04-03-2011, 00:16
and wobba rides off into the sunset :wink:

You knows it mate :D

Was a fun drive home is all I can say lol ;)

walters300
04-03-2011, 00:25
:D delighted for you mate, you have your well and truly deserved, now enjoy the fker and leave it alone!! :P body work only from here on in!

2 live
04-03-2011, 00:43
not as good as dan it seems....52.5bhp from his cam settings and bodies....extremelyimpressive.

What are you on about the old engine had a shagged bottom end.

52bhp is from a complete rebuilt nickhill high compression engine and new cams. Its not so hard to believe.

dan said on c16v that the engine was 170 b4. b4 the thread got deleted/modded. he must know. hes the man. lol. so a 52.5 increase, for which HE is taking credit for is more than impressive for a set of cams/bodies and remap.

cliolord
04-03-2011, 00:49
So how does it feel to be in the "properly setup & goes like a twat" club? Savage I bet :wink: Great stuff!

zmaster2k
04-03-2011, 01:17
2live give it a rest mate!

The guy Is happy? Car has produced what it should. What's the issue?!

Laine_16v
04-03-2011, 08:36
not as good as dan it seems....52.5bhp from his cam settings and bodies....extremelyimpressive.

What are you on about the old engine had a shagged bottom end.

52bhp is from a complete rebuilt nickhill high compression engine and new cams. Its not so hard to believe.

dan said on c16v that the engine was 170 b4. b4 the thread got deleted/modded. he must know. hes the man. lol. so a 52.5 increase, for which HE is taking credit for is more than impressive for a set of cams/bodies and remap.

Sorry yeah you are right, i forgot this engine as well as his old made similar figures.

Coops
04-03-2011, 09:21
good stuff Dan about time she put out a few ponies ;-)

pod time yo!

2 live
04-03-2011, 10:04
2live give it a rest mate!

The guy Is happy? Car has produced what it should. What's the issue?!

im happy for dan. as said, the amount of hassle hes had getting it to this stage, he deserves it.

i just find it hard to believe that a cam set up on n/a can gain 50bhp as sideways is pretty much claimimg and taking credit for. and that the guys claiming the f4s are the better engine etc are now eating humble pie and backtracking slightly lol.

as already said, nice 1 wobba, its finally got there

Wobba
04-03-2011, 13:08
THANKS EVERYONE!!! LUUUV U!!!!

:D

Holy shit, it is quick. My Gripper diff, barely bothered with previous loads, is frequently heard clunking about now as it measures out the torque. Thank God I have it!

Wow....did a quick run down some of my local roads that I know. It's HOLY SHIT HANG ON TIGHT fast.

I am going to prison soon I reckon.

wil4s1
04-03-2011, 13:15
good to see its finally right. Hope its finally working for you now as have followed this saga from the sidelines and has come a long way, after a lot of trouble engine replacements, burning the midnight oil you certainly deserve it now.

Scott

Wobba
04-03-2011, 13:49
good to see its finally right. Hope its finally working for you now as have followed this saga from the sidelines and has come a long way, after a lot of trouble engine replacements, burning the midnight oil you certainly deserve it now.

Scott

Haha, thanks Wil. No doubt, you will read more! The saga never ends!

snowman
04-03-2011, 14:28
Happy Days Dan,really pleased for you,about time aswell. :D

Wobba
04-03-2011, 14:34
Happy Days Dan,really pleased for you,about time aswell. :D

Thanks mate! You're next up for a bhp hike I think !?

snowman
04-03-2011, 14:48
Maybe,hope so anyway,been riding a feckin pushbike for a year now lmao

cliokongen
04-03-2011, 15:55
WOW! - Great result Wobba.... :D
Must be a pleasure to drive!

@ sideways danny
Did you time the cams using the std. figures supplied by Cat Cams?


Michael

northy
04-03-2011, 19:12
glad to see a figure representative of your wallet mate.

Have you beaten cliogirls record for the fastest / most expensive engine ???

diditno
04-03-2011, 19:24
mines cost me around six an half grand. two full rebuilds in under 4k. including 2 sets of pistons, 2 turbo rebuilds and every thing else. engines are fun.

snowman
04-03-2011, 19:38
Shame the garage is still fubar as you cant alter the spec :cry:

northy
14-03-2011, 11:51
How you getting on with the car then wobba - been plenty of time for a bit of a update - any comparisons yet ?

northy
14-03-2011, 13:54
Time for a update having read FB :(

Evogone
14-03-2011, 18:43
Time for a update having read FB :(

FB???

2 live
16-03-2011, 01:27
facebook...........h/g gone??

Wobba
16-03-2011, 12:48
Might have headgasket failure. I think that's what it is, or cracked head.

Symptoms are over pressurising coolant system, causing coolant to spurt out of the cap a lot, also plumes of white smoke under hard load from exhaust.

It was getting quite hot, and at quite random times as well.

Popped a low temp thermo and rad fan switch, and flushed coolant as well, and put water wetter in. It's probably not getting hot enough now so this is not the solution long term.

Found a few minor coolant leaks, and a major one from front engine pipe couple of days ago. It's much better since I fixed that and tbh I've not driven it that much since as I did my back in sorting out the gears.

On the aforementioned test drive I lost 5th gear and reverse. Spent HOURS in middle of night, two nights in a row, fixing it. Got that spot on now though, better than ever before in fact. Also sorted blowing exhaust.

Still got a few smaller issues to sort out.

Had some welding done the other day, Leighanne took it from me to get it done as I cant do anything due to work. Was an MOT fail the way it was.

If it is the HG it must have taken a hammering during mapping and on the base map as it was detonating during this short time, and I was driving very carefully to get to Emerald. Had bad det before on my R5 GTT like that, so I knew what it was, it had HG failure not long after too.

Car still drives ok, it's just under heavy load it shows the symptoms of a bad HG or cracked head.

Car looks great right now though. About the only thing stopping me from petrol bombing it.

Tomorrow is MOT. If it fails hard (it shouldn't) I may just leave it somewhere off the road for a few months and cycle to work!

fab
16-03-2011, 13:16
So just another typical day in the life of a Williams owner then :wink:

northy
16-03-2011, 17:31
keep us updated Mr W.

So has it gone back to sideways Danny for investigation ?

Evogone
16-03-2011, 18:14
Should blow on that mileage unless it has actually done more.......or not done right in the first place......

midge
16-03-2011, 19:35
Give it a compression test, i've seen something like this before and it was a very small leak in the heater matrix, was letting air in, the smoke from exhaust could well be due to condensation, what fuel was it mapped on and what fuel have you put init since?

Coops
16-03-2011, 20:36
mine was doing this, bar the white exhaust smoke, it was a kippered radiator, swapped that an all is hunky dory

get the coolant checked for combustion products

Wobba
16-03-2011, 20:41
keep us updated Mr W.

So has it gone back to sideways Danny for investigation ?

No, he is really busy at the mo, plus it's a long way to go for me. I am considering all possible causes before I give up and hand back. If it is HG it wont be Dans fault.



Give it a compression test, i've seen something like this before and it was a very small leak in the heater matrix, was letting air in, the smoke from exhaust could well be due to condensation, what fuel was it mapped on and what fuel have you put init since?

I think you could be right. The symptoms could be leak related. I've found several so far and till I am convinced 100% it's HG I will keep leak hunting...

I am not saying for sure it's not, but today I think I found the last coolant leak and luckily had the tools to fix it at work.

The previous big leak was at the front of the engine where it comes out of that pipe from the waterpump. I took off a pipe that was leaking previously as well and fitted low temp fan switch. This pipe is a pain as you have to get it on just right or it leaks, may be the VW/Audi design, dunno.

Anyway, test drove it the other day and hammered the shit out of it. No smoke, no issues, no overheating (not even near). Drove to Winchester and back, hard. There was a very small puff of smoke at the end of white smoke. It gave me hope that I was on the right track.

When I got it home I popped hood, to my dismay I saw some drops of coolant on the underside of bonnet again but a LOT less. Was over the expansion bottle....But I also spotted some splashes above the radiator. Could not see leak...when I got to work today I could see it had lost coolant again and there was some more fluid seeping out the rad/pipe again which I moved a few days ago.

Having sorted that, just drove it home and found myself alone on the M27, so I bitch slapped it, watching for smoke....nothing. Nada. Non smokio monsieur. Temperature was well within operational limits. Oil was fine.

Gave it some welly on some bends too and nothing.

Got home, popped hood. No coolant loss and no over pressurising and no coolant all over the bonnet for the first time ever! Could this be problem solved??!! ****ing hope so!

So...where did all the white smoke come from? Well, my theory is, where it over pressurised, it sprayed the manifold from the expansion bottle and made a big smokey mess behind me at high rpm, which COULD have been pressure from combustion chamber (HG failing)...or just where the waterpump and increased temperature from air getting in were sending it beyond the expansion caps ability to cope, venting pressure and coolant.

That is the theory. I may be wrong and it's just ****ed. It has definitely improved though. When Dan and I drove it home from Emerald the smoke on high load was like some kind of 007 smoke-screen effect. It's gotten gradually less and less with each leak I've sorted.

Will monitor and let you all know!

I think I am going to invest in some new coolant hoses. These old hoses really dont like being removed and squished about all that much. One failed at Emerald whilst mapping (they replaced that), Dan had to cut one back a bit as well, and one almost fell apart in my hands the other day as I removed it (lucky I had a spare).

Performance wise? Well, haven't driven it much recently as I have done my back in and the gears were all out and I was worried about this HG/coolant issue. I have though (I am happy to smugly report ;) ) raped everything thus far on 4 wheels. To get the best out of it I have had to adapt to a different kind of power and power that's extracted at the higher RPM areas. Second gear tom-foolery on twisty roads goes so fast, it's hard for me to register. You have to be totally 'in the zone', or basically, crash in a shitty mess. Maybe I am just not that good a driver. I'm getting old so perhaps it just seems more hectic than it really is. To keep it on the boil, fast gear changes are needed so having now totally fixed the gearing issue it's much better.

It's a different car now, I think next I need to rethink my suspension setup and overhaul it so I may sell my AVO's and get something ludicrously expensive instead, something befitting the money-pit known as 0217...


mine was doing this, bar the white exhaust smoke, it was a kippered radiator, swapped that an all is hunky dory

get the coolant checked for combustion products

I will Coopsie, I will.

I am watching the rad as well, just in case!

Coops, you have a Spesso HG?

Coops
16-03-2011, 20:52
ai i have a spesso gasket

dont fill your coolant bottle to max either, i run mine on min when cold and it never blows out, above that it blows out all over. bare in mind the coolant system was never designed for the kind of temp pattern a heavily modded engine throws out, so expansion will be more than normal, hence blowing coolant out the cap and coating the bonnet. as said mine did same and it was combo of too much coolant and a totalled rad. all hunky dory now :-)

Wobba
16-03-2011, 21:14
ai i have a spesso gasket

dont fill your coolant bottle to max either, i run mine on min when cold and it never blows out, above that it blows out all over. bare in mind the coolant system was never designed for the kind of temp pattern a heavily modded engine throws out, so expansion will be more than normal, hence blowing coolant out the cap and coating the bonnet. as said mine did same and it was combo of too much coolant and a totalled rad. all hunky dory now :-)

This is true. The waterpump must be having a fit at 7.5k lol and the relatively massive retardation of ignition timing I now run due to the compression (like, advance of 17 degree MAX, compared to 31/32 it used to have) it will mean higher core temperature from the charge leaving the engine.

Yes, I will not overfill :)

By the way, it was one of your old posts from like 2 years ago I took advice from to get the gears fixed again...I could have kissed you at the time (dont ask for any kisses at any car meets though, ok?).

Coops
16-03-2011, 22:49
how about just a hug? :D

sideways danny
17-03-2011, 01:49
how about just a hug? :D

can i flying hug you, and send us rolling down a grass bank and almost cost myself a tecticle?...........oh wait, already done that lol



I'm still fairly confident that the rad isn't doing enough, and the fan has no balls being I cheapy (advice i gave first time it popped the pressure cap and sent STEAM (it's not smoke!!!!!) out behind the car. With the dyno fan pointing straight at the rad there wasn't a problem, although it was obviously highlighting a few ageing hoses with a couple of pin holes developing.

IMO, more powerful fan (even a standard one adapted to fit which is what Gaz uses, and what i've done elsewhere too) set of new hoses so there's no more perrishing rubber in there anywhere (we've spoken about this already) and a better rad if that doesn't sort it

For the record, i said it's not the HG, it's running hot due to compression and ignition timing and needs better cooling, from day 1 ;)[/quote]

16v_paddy
17-03-2011, 10:36
IMO, more powerful fan (even a standard one adapted to fit which is what Gaz uses, and what i've done elsewhere too)

Oh hai!! :D

Laine_16v
17-03-2011, 13:51
Yeah seems like a good idea, im going to get myself one of the ph2 black fans and bash that on my radiator.

walters300
17-03-2011, 15:00
oh mate It Kills me to read the last few posts, it does sound minor though fingers crossed, my car has a mini cooper fan on it and it seems a lot better than the standard one, I also fitted a new rad and never had any water problems, good luck with it :wink:

vkosho
24-03-2011, 23:52
Just read all this...

What a great result wobba, those power figures are really impressive. Looks like dans the man with a quick turn around to boot.

Im really pleased to hear about all this after what happened last year, congrats wobba! Shame about your recent issues but im sure youl get it sorted.