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Wobba
23-11-2010, 15:45
Off to Surrey RR on Saturday with a bunch from C16V and a few others.

I've fixed all the problems I can find, replaced a few items (apart from a slight 'box leak) and am looking forward to trying the car out on a different dyno to the Ktec ones where the car didn't produce expected figures.

I've replaced my cracked manifold and changed exhaust for a slightly smaller bore one now. Oreca was just too extreme for everyday, had to come off for now. I've fixed a potential cooling issue which meant it never got hot enough as well.

I am hoping it will do much better than the 165 bhp it was dyno'd at last time at Ktec. I suspect their figures are quite down on the true power.

So currently:

714 block (4 bar pressure at cold start and 1.3 at hot idle)
APD Spec II Megane 714 head on coilpack
Emerald ECU
Catcams 225's & Verniers
Jenvey 45mm throttle bodies
Supersprint manifold & downpipe (wrapped)
Mongoose 2.25" full system/decat

Gripper LSD
AST Solid Top Mounts (set with negative camber and positive caster currently, awesome)
AVO Coilovers
Powerflex ARB thingies
Camber correction bolts
Short shift gear lever
Yanoo Clevis bar-minibar mod
Toyo R1R tyres

Ktec big brake conversion with Mintex M1155 pads
Braided brake lines
Braided fuel hoses

Semi stripped

I am hoping for 180 bhp or more this time. Any less and I will be doing more checks.

Craig at APD has said he will check it all over if I want. If there is anything wrong I would suspect cam timing as that's the only thing I have not checked. Hopefully there is nothing wrong.

Some random pics to make you salivate, and besides, I've not posted any for ages of my car :)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/IMAG0193.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/092.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/DSCF0393.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/IMAG0192.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/IMAG0252.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/DSC00287-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/Williams%20217/DSC00252.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/Williams%20217/IMAG0131.jpg

:)

Wobba.

Clio-Girl
23-11-2010, 15:48
you are becoming a bigger whore than coops :wink: :lol:

dkrevs
23-11-2010, 16:05
I hope you'll get some nice figures this time. :) You have a really nice Williams. :wink:

PS: That Oreca Gr.A exhaust is PORN!! :droool:

Wobba
23-11-2010, 16:19
Thanks guys.

Ronee: I've not posted pics on WC for ages :(

Oooh....maybe a big pic thread is in order!

midge
23-11-2010, 16:36
Did Craig do the cam timing? cant see it being wrong tbh! and if it was i expect K-tec would have picked it up on the rr, Hope it makes the figures for you. Engine looks mint!

Clio-Girl
23-11-2010, 16:48
Thanks guys.

Ronee: I've not posted pics on WC for ages :(

Oooh....maybe a big pic thread is in order!

hehe im only kidding, ITB porn is always acceptable of course!

we will need a picture thread after the weekend i may even take some bay pics of mine, its been so long since i did i dont have any of how it looks now :(

bigjim
23-11-2010, 17:41
surely with that spec throttle bodies cams etc u should be nearing 200bhp??? i would be very dissapointed if it was only pushing out 160-170bhp, maybe just the ktec rollers, how does it drive, does it feel like its proper quick?

Wobba
23-11-2010, 18:14
I can't keep up with all the different Wobba's car related threads.

Life is never boring with the Wobbamobile!

Jim:

I think there is a lot of hype with figures so expectations are probably higher than reality. I remember reading of 190 bhp cars with just cams in Max Power back in the day...load of bollocks made up by owners and tuners alike with dodgy rolling roads. Unfortunately, these figures have been the bandied about for so long people believe them to be true and inevitably lead to disappointment for an owner when measured on a properly calibrated dyno.

That's not to say all RR's read high, some read low, as I suspect is the case with Ktec's dyno (unless my tyre pressure or suspension geometry are to blame) as the car feels quicker than 165 bhp...

Yes, it feels quick, but then it felt quick when it was dyno'd without cams or ITBs etc at 152.1 bhp. The noise with ITB's is intoxicating.

Lately it has felt at its best as I have replaced a number of parts now and sealed the exhaust leaks as well and changed a few map settings to improve cold starts and idle.

It currently handles supremely well in the dry, and most amusingly in the wet. I think 180 bhp is on the cards, maybe 181.

Yanoo_
23-11-2010, 18:49
Yanoo Clevis bar-minibar mod

that's + 10 mental HP :D :D

This car should perform over 195 HP @ flywheel IMO.

Oszy's Willy performed 158 hp @ wheels 2 years ago and it had only a minor modification: increased CR ~ 11.5, CC225 + custom vernier pulleys (timed for wide torque curve), chipped stock ECU/management, wrapped Elia manifold, custom exhaust, ported cylinder head.

Wobba
23-11-2010, 19:43
Yanoo Clevis bar-minibar mod

that's + 10 mental HP :D :D

This car should perform over 195 HP @ flywheel IMO.

Oszy's Willy performed 158 hp @ wheels 2 years ago and it had only a minor modification: increased CR ~ 11.5, CC225 + custom vernier pulleys (timed for wide torque curve), chipped stock ECU/management, wrapped Elia manifold, custom exhaust, ported cylinder head.

Thanks Yanoo_, but if you think about it, that spec of Ozzy's is similar to mine except for the ITB's and management. The 45mm ITB's wont be worth 40 hp alone no matter how well mapped. If it makes 195+ I'll eat my pants.

To get near or over 200 I'd need a high comp bottom end and/or seriously mad cams.

robi1000
23-11-2010, 20:04
It's not extra 40hp to make 200. Oszy has 158hp at the wheels. So maybe 20hp to have 200. Although I think he said he's near 190hp now.

Who knows...

Wobba
23-11-2010, 20:09
Ahh lol I missed THE WHEELS bit :p

Fuk, yea...ok.

LEIGH-ANNE
23-11-2010, 20:12
Nice pics lol

Yea you have done a lot of niggly bits which needed sorting. You know my guess anyways :wink:

Yanoo_
23-11-2010, 20:45
It's not extra 40hp to make 200. Oszy has 158hp at the wheels. So maybe 20hp to have 200. Although I think he said he's near 190hp now.

Who knows...

Yes, that's at the wheels. And approx. 190 HP at flywheel.
The car has been modified since then (higher CR and Clio III RS pistons), now it's a slightly more powerful. But the idle.... well that's a bit lumpy.

Wobba
24-11-2010, 00:12
It's not extra 40hp to make 200. Oszy has 158hp at the wheels. So maybe 20hp to have 200. Although I think he said he's near 190hp now.

Who knows...

Yes, that's at the wheels. And approx. 190 HP at flywheel.
The car has been modified since then (higher CR and Clio III RS pistons), now it's a slightly more powerful. But the idle.... well that's a bit lumpy.

How user friendly is it? Mine is currently quite happy to just be warmed a bit and off we go. I wouldn't want a car that's a bitch to drive daily tbh, that's why Ive not had a cage fitted and buckets etc with polycarb windows or Chuck Norris clutch :p

Coops
24-11-2010, 11:15
flippin heck wobbanory boyo,your car/engine is beautiful!

Wobba
24-11-2010, 11:45
Cheers Ben, it's a bit ragged at the moment and vandals smacked the wing mirror off the other day and dented the door as well.

Still, most of it is good and a few new bits of bling in the engine bay will freshen it up such as aeroquip fittings and some more braided lines, and a special OE fuel rail (converting to the Jenvey style rail later).

Also picking up another set of Speedlines on Saturday to have refurbished in black for winter tyres and, next year, R888's for track and some road use.

:)

Yanoo_
24-11-2010, 13:21
How user friendly is it? Mine is currently quite happy to just be warmed a bit and off we go. I wouldn't want a car that's a bitch to drive daily tbh, that's why Ive not had a cage fitted and buckets etc with polycarb windows or Chuck Norris clutch :p

It's quite user friendly. Above 3000 rpm :D CC225 is timed for huuuugge overlap so it's not a daily car, difficult to drive under 3000 rpm, lumpy idle and kangaroo effect on low rpm :D Perhaps a decent map (or a standalone ECU even more) could help a bit but the owner doesn't bother with it. It's not for everydays, it's a weekend car.

cliokongen
25-11-2010, 00:51
Fingers crossed for a great result! :D

Wobba
25-11-2010, 11:47
Fingers crossed for a great result! :D

Cheers mate!

Wobba
27-11-2010, 23:02
What a day.

Bloody cold, but great turn out and some serious ITB F7R cars there with Stevie B, cliolord and Ronee and Beaniemoo's F4R ITB car. I'll let them post their figures up though.

Pretty good result for Paddy_16v considering basic mods and little F7P. Justins ex-cop car Beemer proved to be on the healthy side too! Jay S did well again with just a minor fuelling issue knocking his result down a tiny bit.

There were a couple of cars that made disappointing figures considering the spec, mine being one of them. 166.7 bhp is unfortunately not what I paid thousands for :roll:

Still, had a fun day out and it was really great to see everyone and meet new faces :)

Wobba
28-11-2010, 00:13
Says it seems to hold back after a certain points and I agree.

It's not the map.

Evogone
28-11-2010, 01:12
Says it seems to hold back after a certain points and I agree.

It's not the map.

Just waiting for the pm....... :wink:

What did the others make ?

northy
28-11-2010, 12:18
:roll:

cliolord
28-11-2010, 20:16
Says it seems to hold back after a certain points and I agree.

It's not the map.

Just waiting for the pm....... :wink:

What did the others make ?

Cliolord. 222.8bhp 172ftlb~
Clio-girl. 214.5bhp 168ftlb~

Evogone
29-11-2010, 11:28
Says it seems to hold back after a certain points and I agree.

It's not the map.

Just waiting for the pm....... :wink:

What did the others make ?

Cliolord. 222.8bhp 172ftlb~
Clio-girl. 214.5bhp 168ftlb~

Both looking good, what are the power curves like, as they are different spec engines with diff ITBs... would be interesting to compare.

Evogone
29-11-2010, 12:58
Bummer carnt view the thread....wouldnt be lean running by any chance ?

northy
29-11-2010, 13:53
wobba has remapped his since Ktec rollers jon, so it isnt down to any maps of theres FWIK

Evogone
29-11-2010, 14:29
wobba has remapped his since Ktec rollers jon, so it isnt down to any maps of theres FWIK
Whos mapped it now ?

northy
29-11-2010, 15:33
wobba did it himself.

Evogone
29-11-2010, 15:58
:shock:

Wobba
29-11-2010, 16:04
All I have done, apart from the odd test map, is to sort the non existent cold start/running map and alter some idle mapping.

I could do more, but to what end? I've already tested minor changes in ignition on the road and it makes no more discernible power, so I've reset it to Ktec spec, and I already know the top end fuelling is about right.

I've been studying engine management for a while now and have the basics covered. I understand a lot more than I did, but know enough that major changes without being on a dyno, wearing a pair of det cans on my head, would be foolish.

It's not Andy Cutlers error is what I am saying, though his map was not perfect, it was about right as far as I can tell. Stan's top end fuel mapping was about right as well. AFR readings prove this.

Both of them however mapped the car with exhaust/manifold leaks, so to get it perfect would not have been possible.

Clio-Girl
29-11-2010, 17:43
From all accounts it's just the typical Andy Cutler mapping. Rich low down and lean on power, but that's probably not the full story, I'd imagine ignition is all over the place too.

im going to go on the defensive here im afraid..

if Andy is soooo bad at mapping then why were the top 4 cars of the day 'Andy maps'? with perfect graphs??

1. Cliolord 222.8bhp 172lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

2. Beanie 222.2bhp 173lb/ft (High comp F4R ITBs cams headwork)

3. Ronee 214.5bhp 168lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

4. Stevie B 192.8bhp 170 lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

robi1000
29-11-2010, 18:02
Can someone tell me what are the differences that are worth 30bhp, between Cliolord's and Stevie B's car? Probably not just cams? Could you guys write which cams you're using?

sideways danny
29-11-2010, 18:09
Can someone tell me what are the differences that are worth 30bhp, between Cliolord's and Stevie B's car? Probably not just cams? Could you guys write which cams you're using?

cams and cam timing, compression, 714 head, williams exhaust manifold on steves.

Steves was all spec'd for lower RPM usable power as he wanted it for sprinting. Dont think you can argue with 170lb/ft!!

jay s
29-11-2010, 18:10
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

sideways danny
29-11-2010, 18:11
Steves would probably compare best to Ronees really. Same CR, just 208s in Steves and 213s in Ronees

Laine_16v
29-11-2010, 18:16
From all accounts it's just the typical Andy Cutler mapping. Rich low down and lean on power, but that's probably not the full story, I'd imagine ignition is all over the place too.

im going to go on the defensive here im afraid..

if Andy is soooo bad at mapping then why were the top 4 cars of the day 'Andy maps'? with perfect graphs??

1. Cliolord 222.8bhp 172lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

2. Beanie 222.2bhp 173lb/ft (High comp F4R ITBs cams headwork)

3. Ronee 214.5bhp 168lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

4. Stevie B 192.8bhp 170 lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

Agreed, i look forward to having my car mapped by Ktec tbh :)

sideways danny
29-11-2010, 18:34
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

It's the cams. I'd put money on it. 225s are just not suited to ITBs as far as i'm concerned. Perfect as a "stage 1" upgrade cam, but they offer no benefit in this instance. You could dial in more lift at TDC I guess (not knowing what they're dialed in for) but i can's see much more than a few more bhp at the top of the revs, and pushing the power up the revs in general.

cliolord
29-11-2010, 19:28
From all accounts it's just the typical Andy Cutler mapping. Rich low down and lean on power, but that's probably not the full story, I'd imagine ignition is all over the place too.

im going to go on the defensive here im afraid..

if Andy is soooo bad at mapping then why were the top 4 cars of the day 'Andy maps'? with perfect graphs??

1. Cliolord 222.8bhp 172lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

2. Beanie 222.2bhp 173lb/ft (High comp F4R ITBs cams headwork)

3. Ronee 214.5bhp 168lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

4. Stevie B 192.8bhp 170 lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

Agreed, i look forward to having my car mapped by Ktec tbh :)

Mines fine, never been better. Glad Andy has worked on the map, drives much better and actually starts :D

Andy's map 250miles+ to a full tank of fuel which is superb imo considering I use to get 150miles on an APD map with no lambda which isn't ideal.

So what I'm saying is, big heads up to Andy!

Evogone
29-11-2010, 20:09
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

It's the cams. I'd put money on it. 225s are just not suited to ITBs as far as i'm concerned. Perfect as a "stage 1" upgrade cam, but they offer no benefit in this instance. You could dial in more lift at TDC I guess (not knowing what they're dialed in for) but i can's see much more than a few more bhp at the top of the revs, and pushing the power up the revs in general.

Why is it the cams ? Cliokongen gets 220 with his car, same spec just higher compression 11.5cr BE.

Must be cam timing / BE...

robi1000
29-11-2010, 20:13
What are the usual rates in UK for a remap? If cost are similar I might bring my car to UK to be remapped.

The fastest Renault (highly modified R26) in Slovenia was mapped in UK. :P

sideways danny
29-11-2010, 20:31
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

It's the cams. I'd put money on it. 225s are just not suited to ITBs as far as i'm concerned. Perfect as a "stage 1" upgrade cam, but they offer no benefit in this instance. You could dial in more lift at TDC I guess (not knowing what they're dialed in for) but i can's see much more than a few more bhp at the top of the revs, and pushing the power up the revs in general.

Why is it the cams ? Cliokongen gets 220 with his car, same spec just higher compression 11.5cr BE.

Must be cam timing / BE...

on what dyno? not a dynodynamics AFAIK so you can't make a direct comparison. I've seen the videos, it's fast without doubt, but so is Wobbas

saying its the bottom end is just unrealistic it made good power before the work as a standardish car

cliolord
29-11-2010, 20:43
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

It's the cams. I'd put money on it. 225s are just not suited to ITBs as far as i'm concerned. Perfect as a "stage 1" upgrade cam, but they offer no benefit in this instance. You could dial in more lift at TDC I guess (not knowing what they're dialed in for) but i can's see much more than a few more bhp at the top of the revs, and pushing the power up the revs in general.

Why is it the cams ? Cliokongen gets 220 with his car, same spec just higher compression 11.5cr BE.

Must be cam timing / BE...

on what dyno? not a dynodynamics AFAIK so you can't make a direct comparison. I've seen the videos, it's fast without doubt, but so is Wobbas

saying its the bottom end is just unrealistic it made good power before the work as a standardish car

Mine made 247hp / 209ft/lb on a land and sea dyno... Fat chance of that!

Clio-Girl
29-11-2010, 20:54
From all accounts it's just the typical Andy Cutler mapping. Rich low down and lean on power, but that's probably not the full story, I'd imagine ignition is all over the place too.

im going to go on the defensive here im afraid..

if Andy is soooo bad at mapping then why were the top 4 cars of the day 'Andy maps'? with perfect graphs??

1. Cliolord 222.8bhp 172lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

2. Beanie 222.2bhp 173lb/ft (High comp F4R ITBs cams headwork)

3. Ronee 214.5bhp 168lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

4. Stevie B 192.8bhp 170 lb/ft (High comp F7R ITBs cams headwork)

Luck?

come on, its not luck when its 4 clios all of high spec, no one is that lucky.

you dont get perfect graphs if you are a shit mapper, i know this unfortunatly ive been through this experience.

Andy rescued mine and Gaz's car from undriveable states, which il be eternally grateful to Andy for, if it wasnt for Jon bigging up GDI so much in the past i may not have even encountered any dealings with Andy at all tbh.

midge
29-11-2010, 21:31
How times have changed eh Jon, i remember the times when every other post had 'GDI' 'Andy' 'Omex' in.

Theres horror storys out there from every one of the tuners, always is and always will be.

now, where do i take my car for mapping ?

snowman
29-11-2010, 21:53
mines going to Andy too :P

Justin..
29-11-2010, 23:38
Maybe he's just good with itbapping then if charged mapping is harder

Evogone
29-11-2010, 23:38
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

It's the cams. I'd put money on it. 225s are just not suited to ITBs as far as i'm concerned. Perfect as a "stage 1" upgrade cam, but they offer no benefit in this instance. You could dial in more lift at TDC I guess (not knowing what they're dialed in for) but i can's see much more than a few more bhp at the top of the revs, and pushing the power up the revs in general.

Why is it the cams ? Cliokongen gets 220 with his car, same spec just higher compression 11.5cr BE.

Must be cam timing / BE...

on what dyno? not a dynodynamics AFAIK so you can't make a direct comparison. I've seen the videos, it's fast without doubt, but so is Wobbas

saying its the bottom end is just unrealistic it made good power before the work as a standardish car

What is the issue with Wobbas car then ? something is not right with that engine and spec. What were the other RR results, spec of wobbas vs other cars on the rollers would suggest theres an issue.

People have made very good power with 225s it doesnt go away with fitting ITBs. I did suggest possible areas CAM TIMING /BE....which could be lots of things.

Let not start saying silly things and throwing mud i just feel sorry for the guy as he didnt get what he was sold...

Justin..
29-11-2010, 23:39
Itb mapping *



EDIT BUTTON???? ffs

cliolord
29-11-2010, 23:45
How times have changed eh Jon, i remember the times when every other post had 'GDI' 'Andy' 'Omex' in.

Theres horror storys out there from every one of the tuners, always is and always will be.

now, where do i take my car for mapping ?

Yeah Andy WAS my best mate and like any good mate I supported him with his business and personally.

However he royally f**ked me over. I was his best mate so good luck you guys ;)

Making power is one thing, making a car drivable is another. My car has always made decent power, but I got used to it driving like a sack of sh!t.

Any improvement seemed monumental, but now it's been done properly it's been a real eye opener. Also made more power after back to back runs, a significant amount more.

Charger mapping is more difficult, my car was almost undrivable as anyone who drove it pre map will agree with.

Well, I drove Clio-girls car and thought BUGGER ME it's like driving a standard Williams but with loads more power, it drives lovely. I then took my car to Andy for mapping. Mine now drives lovely :D

Clio-Girl
29-11-2010, 23:55
Making power is one thing, making a car drivable is another. My car has always made decent power, but I got used to it driving like a sack of sh!t.

Any improvement seemed monumental, but now it's been done properly it's been a real eye opener.

if anyone knows what driving a 'sack of shit' is like its me, my car barely ran with its old map by another tuner (and i use that term loosley)

Andy has made my car PERFECT in everyway, she drives superb, the power delivery and power it makes is spot on. there is nothing you could do to improve my car now, put interior back in and it could be a very nice, smooth although environmentally unfriendly daily hack.

heres my graph just to prove to people the guy can obviously map a car, some of the standard cars graphs were not even as smooth as mine when you bear in mind the spec of my car.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc166/Clio-girl/Image0045.jpg

stevie_b
30-11-2010, 00:04
Steves would probably compare best to Ronees really. Same CR, just 208s in Steves and 213s in Ronees

I'm on 213s too I believe Dan - they should have been swapped over although I have yet to have the covers off to check.

Laine_16v
30-11-2010, 00:06
Hmm obviously you know your car better than me ;) i read the build thread on Ktec Blog, and they used "Hi Torque" cams, which are definately they 208's (i used to have a aset of these too).

The charactersitics of torque and power output from your engine would be bob on for the 208's imo.

cliolord
30-11-2010, 00:10
Hmm obviously you know your car better than me ;) i read the build thread on Ktec Blog, and they used "Hi Torque" cams, which are definately they 208's (i used to have a aset of these too).

The charactersitics of torque and power output from your engine would be bob on for the 208's imo.

Your engine was a cracker until it blew up lainer, I stand by that!

Laine_16v
30-11-2010, 00:15
It definately lacked torque, only pushed out 145ft lb's on TSR rolling road from memory.

Was a little screamer though lol

cliolord
30-11-2010, 00:16
It definately lacked torque, only pushed out 145ft lb's on TSR rolling road from memory.

Was a little screamer though lol

TSR, they don't know how to operate a lawn mower let alone a set of rollers.

It was a sad time when that bolt entered the intake :cry:

sideways danny
30-11-2010, 00:28
Steves would probably compare best to Ronees really. Same CR, just 208s in Steves and 213s in Ronees

I'm on 213s too I believe Dan - they should have been swapped over although I have yet to have the covers off to check.

Well i can't comment on what happened or was changed once i wasn't working on it or what you asked for to be swapped etc. I think it's bloody fantastic now though. Perfect for what you were saying you'll use the car for Makes me want some 208s. When it was a pile of parts stored in my garage they were definitely 208s

Wobba
30-11-2010, 00:36
Surrey dyno results

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/srr1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/SRR2.jpg

I have dyno results from Stans map as well, and Andy's, though no AFR for Andy's. Some of my graphs got damaged though after my bag was stolen the other day along with about £1k worth of stuff.

I have a suspicion it could be a gradual deterioration in power. I know my car well, and although reliable, there have been little tell-tale signs of things gradually happening. I honestly expected it to make more power at the RR than it did as it has had more stuff done since the last RR and yet only gained 1 bhp and lost a bunch of torque.

stevie_b
30-11-2010, 00:38
Yes, it was definitely on 208s before. When I bought the engine I had it inventoried as 213s, which was obviously incorrect (a small mistake by someone perhaps?). When Andy said that 213s would be better I had them swapped over - as I say, I have yet to check what is in it, but that is what I was told, and paid for. If I take the cam cover off at the driver's side I should be able to see the cam type stamped into the end of the cam?

Justin..
30-11-2010, 00:43
Not sure on your dizzy set up steve, but the end if the cams can be seen easiest on exhaust cam when uou take the distributer off. You wont see much just taking the cam cover

Wobba
30-11-2010, 00:47
He uses coilpack Jus, and has some part of it over the dizzy cover bit as well.

Here are my RR figures after I got it tested at Ktec many months ago. I was told at this stage by Ktec and otehrs the rollers there are conservative:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/rr2.jpg

Afr results showed a bit rich in most parts.

sideways danny
30-11-2010, 00:50
Dan, you'll prob see an improvement in torque with some mapping as you've changed the exhaust manifold since it was done. I know Gaz did.

Steve, the cams are normally engraved along the length of the shaft. Can't remember if Cat put anyting on the end of the cam, dont think they do

Laine_16v
30-11-2010, 08:26
Cat do engrave the end of the camshaft :)

midge
30-11-2010, 14:10
Ronee's graph look smooth as hell!
Think im going to try find someone local who use's surrey rr to finish teh map on mine.

Dont know why wobba's car isnt making the numbers,
Head work by Stan well proven
225's are well proven
mapping by K-tec - well proven

So whats left? b/e is all i can think

Clio-Girl
30-11-2010, 14:40
but...

if a bottom end was unwell it would give you some sort of sign surely? wether it be a small amount of smoke or a knock. the engine was perfectly happy until it was tinkered with.

Evogone
30-11-2010, 15:02
Was the CR checked when swapping to Megane head......Could be tht the CR is er too low..!

Just a thought as this is an issue on the F4R when swapping heads as they are matched...

Wobba
01-12-2010, 14:00
Ok, the results of my compression tests are in.

It reveals some interesting figures:

All tests done on full throttle.

Cold Test

Piston 1: 85
Piston 2: 90
Piston 3: 70
Piston 4: 76

Wet tested from cold.

Piston 4: 123

Not good huh? Still making 166.7 bhp with HALF COMPRESSION! WTF!?

So I think, 'wtf, maybe the valves not sealing at cold?' so I warm the engine right up and retested straight away.

Hot Test:

Piston 1: 75
Piston 2: 80
Piston 3: 74
Piston 4: 70

I wondered straight away if the tool I was using was not sealing. I checked and triple checked it. The tester was fine and I was tightening it as much as I could at the spark plug hole. I used a different adapter as well just in case. No change.

It needs a leak down test teally, but in all honesty, after the wet test it looks like the piston rings are ****ed or the bores are worn.

Options:

Replace bottom end (again)
Pull pistons and replace rings
Rebuild current block

Stan has offered to do a leak down test if I want and take a look.

I might just go high compression on the bottom end.

Yes it will cost me more money, but on the good side, at least I now know I am in the ballpark for finally ascertaining the issue with the car and even with such poor compression it is making respectable power.

snowman
01-12-2010, 14:28
jons description of how his map ran is exactly how mine was from APD,although i did manage to squeeze out 125miles from a brimmed tank some times

Clio-Girl
01-12-2010, 14:44
and same as my RSTuning map, except it got to the point where it wouldnt drive at all and ran on 2 cylinders.

richy
01-12-2010, 15:11
going off what you have put wobba id get a leak down test done and recheck the compression, mine as std was producing 200psi+ and was tested on 2 different gauges to be sure!

if its 110% down then before wasting a ton more of money on a high comp stuff id look at sorting out whatever you may find, be it a full set of rings/hone etc or valve seats and seeing how it peforms then!

mk1 clio's are money pits anyway but yours is a serious money pit!

Clio-Girl
01-12-2010, 15:47
Snowman, sounds like they are kindred spirits then. I'm sure he'll see this and spit his dummy out, but he's not exactly done himself any favours with the Wobba car ongoing saga. On the plus side though (for Stan anyway) if the damage to Wobba's engine was caused by his mapping then at least now there's no way to prove it as Ktec and Wobba have both messed with it.

Ronee, I've never had any mapping by Paul, but from all accounts he's nothing like BenR where he takes your money then goes into hiding? How come you took the car away driving like that? Not having a go here either, as I did the same with Andy.

Wobba had an independant RR done at Ktec before he even got them to touch the mapping (iirc) and it made piss poor figures then so its unlikely Ktec are to blame here.

Jon, why have you brought BenR up into this? this thread is not about my engine build, nor are we talking about people going into hiding, so that comment seems completely irrelevent to this conversation?

as for driving my car away in the dreadful state it was, i was none the wiser i had no idea what an ITB clio was meant to drive like. I was told by Paul that 'they are all like that' when i questioned why it kept stalling. And with the persuasion of my cunt of an ex boyfriend i was talked into thinking it was fine even when i knew it was far from it, so i dealt with it by not driving it. and then as soon as the cold weather kicked in, due to the shocking map the naples wouldnt even really run.

is that answer suitable enough or is there more info you would like dragged up?

Wobba
01-12-2010, 16:29
going off what you have put wobba id get a leak down test done and recheck the compression, mine as std was producing 200psi+ and was tested on 2 different gauges to be sure!

if its 110% down then before wasting a ton more of money on a high comp stuff id look at sorting out whatever you may find, be it a full set of rings/hone etc or valve seats and seeing how it peforms then!

mk1 clio's are money pits anyway but yours is a serious money pit!

Thanks.

Yes, the car has been a money pit. Not had much luck really.

Although I think I know the root of the problem I am tempted to break the car and have done with it or accept a good offer for the whole thing.

It would be a shame I know, but my patience and time/money really is getting to a point where enough is enough and being sensible is way past due now. This will be the second engine swap, and its not like I scrimp on keeping it in good order, its had about 6 oil changes this year.

Leak down test is next on the cards.

Clio-Girl
01-12-2010, 16:34
The point is I'm not blaming Ktec for the unhealthy engine, if it was fine before it went to Stan and only he had touched it then Wobba would have been able to go back and say so. Now he has no chance.

I mentioned Ben as he does work, then you can't get hold of him, where I dont believe Paul has done anything similar, so if there's a problem I was curious as to why you didn't say? The thread is about poor RR figures, you mentioned Paul, I was just curious as to why you would dive away in the car and leave your money if you were not happy. If your ex convinced you otherwise well that's another issue entirely.

I think it's fairly clear I'm not dragging anything back up, you made the point about Paul, I just asked a simple question, no need to be defensive.

i did tell Paul on many occasions, hence why i ended up going back to him about 5 times and each time it just got worse and was costing me a lot of money in fuel each time (at that point about a tank each way) its not like i just keep schtum about it. it got to the point where i just gave up theres only so many £100's that i could waste on fuel with no results.

and FYI Paul even said to me he would have put her right after she failed to run properly, but do you really think i would of gone back knowing it was his map that put her in the predicament in the first place? trailering the naples all the way to Leeds was definatly not something i wished to do.

Paul didnt give me bad figures either in fact it was 16bhp more than i curently have, problem was it was only mapped for flat out and over 4000rpm, that was what i had issues with you couldnt drive it on the roads, which in hindsight was what Paul couldnt rectify, Andy could.

northy
01-12-2010, 16:39
sorry to hear the verdict with the B/E - but please do not take your bat and ball home 'now' saying that you will break the car as that will be the icing on the cake! Thats just plain SILLY! =;

Every problem has a reason to why it has happened.

You know the problem, you know what needs to be done to resolve it. Get checked and repaired - But if the worst did happen - source a second hand block thus keeping it simple and get the car working with minimal costs.

Get the base right and the power will follow.

A&P
01-12-2010, 16:53
Don't want to cut in here but I totally agree with northy don't give up wobba I would say the big money has already been spent , get bottom end sorted and you should be where you want to be, as I say just my opinion but stick with it wobba know its heartbreaking and bank breaking but sounds like your nearly there mate. :wink:

richy
01-12-2010, 17:32
going off what you have put wobba id get a leak down test done and recheck the compression, mine as std was producing 200psi+ and was tested on 2 different gauges to be sure!

if its 110% down then before wasting a ton more of money on a high comp stuff id look at sorting out whatever you may find, be it a full set of rings/hone etc or valve seats and seeing how it peforms then!

mk1 clio's are money pits anyway but yours is a serious money pit!

Thanks.

Yes, the car has been a money pit. Not had much luck really.

Although I think I know the root of the problem I am tempted to break the car and have done with it or accept a good offer for the whole thing.

It would be a shame I know, but my patience and time/money really is getting to a point where enough is enough and being sensible is way past due now. This will be the second engine swap, and its not like I scrimp on keeping it in good order, its had about 6 oil changes this year.

Leak down test is next on the cards.

i wasnt being harsh when saying yours is a money pit, both my williams and valver cost me a fortune over the past 7 years,

with yours i wouldnt go to the extreme of throwing a high comp B/E at it just yet, in comparison yours against mine you have the itb's/headwork/ecu etc over my spec so the potential is there to make alot more power then it currently is, you just gotta nail down the reason and get the last peice of the jigsaw puzzle inplace!

midge
01-12-2010, 17:58
Wobba - dont break the car, ignoring the fact its lovely car it doesn't even make financial sense, you can spend another 200-600 on a b/e vs losing 0000's, stick with it mate. and definately get a leak down test done, if its the valve's/cam timing im sure Craig will help you out.

jay s
01-12-2010, 18:35
i honestly think the problems lies in the bottom end, get a fresh high comp bottom end on there and the lost horses should return :wink: i agree on it not being the map this time. also i was having a chat with laine about the manifold and he confirmed chaldi do indeed do a inlet for the 710/714 head so probably not that :)

what do i win :?: :wink: to be fair it was the only thing that has'nt been changed or touched, the topend is moreless brand new so logic says bottom end after map been checked imo.

Laine_16v
01-12-2010, 18:38
I still dont think its the bottom end

fab
01-12-2010, 20:00
Just on observation..gutted for you, but Wobba you have had 1 too many issue's with this car going by your posts past and present. And it's not just common issue's we all experience with a williams.
You know the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" :?: I'm a superstitious type of person and if a car is jinxed its jinxed!
Dont let your pride and ego get in the way of common sense.

zmaster2k
01-12-2010, 20:48
just had a very big laugh over this thread tbh..... talk about poaching


Wobba... sorry about your issues matey, dont loose heart just yet :)

LEIGH-ANNE
01-12-2010, 20:54
Yer dan, keep your chin up. Your have your car sorted in the end. Besides you like tinkering with it anyways - you'd be moaning if there was nothing wrong with it and you had nothing to do lol

snowman
01-12-2010, 20:57
at least your car go's mate :(

northy
01-12-2010, 20:57
thread cleaned up by me.

Can we keep on topic here or it will be unfortunalty closed and removed.

Wobba
01-12-2010, 20:59
OKAY GUYS! Lol you've convinced me, I wont break 0217 :p

Hands up, maybe that was me just being a bit of an attention seeking girl, feeling sorry for myself as I cried into my Cupasoup earlier lol :) I am man enough to admit it!!

I know all is not lost. It's been a bit of a saga thus far and I cant say it's been fun, but I am soooo close now. 167 hp on half compression should mean as long as there are no other issues, it will go like stink as I do still trust Craig's engine work to be good.

I have two or three options already (assuming block is buggered) and am awaiting a couple of quotes. The cheap route is appealing this close to Xmas, but the high comp route could be one to take if I am ever to go that route, as it would save hassle down the line but maybe make the car too much for a daily car...opinions please?

I am quite excited now at getting it sorted for good :P Can't wait to go Megane bashing at the RS Track days next year.

Yes Leighanne, I have enjoyed playing with the car, some of it has been a big old hassle though and not cheap, as you know!

stevie_b
01-12-2010, 20:59
It needs a leak down test really

I've got a dual guage leakdown tester if you need it and it saves you time, money and/or taking it anywhere. Give me a shout if it will be any help and I'll post it off to you or something (have you got access to a compressor for high pressure air supply though?)

Winston
01-12-2010, 21:06
Been reading your problems on facebook wobba...

Hope you get it sorted dude

midge
01-12-2010, 21:18
I dont think low comp parts would be sutiable on this build.

back on topic.

midge
01-12-2010, 21:35
I dont want to come across a knob as i really do feel for Wobba, most of us here will have had problems with our cars that have wound us up to the point of wanting to jack it in, but i think its important to understand certain aspects of how we ended up with this thread on this forum.

- Wobba takes car to Craig for alot of work
- big delay
- Wobba goes to get the car, drives it for a good while, commenting on how it drive's well e.t.c
- a little while later Wobba discovers the car making less than expected power (blinded possibly by the sound of itbs)
- he phones Craig, Craig says something like 'thats very disapointing, bring it to me and we/i will go over it, compression test/timing check/leak down check e.t.c'
- Wobba doesnt take the car (understandable, because of previous big delays)

skip some messing about with map by k-tec and minor adjustments by Wobba himself, and that brings us here, 6 MONTHS down the line with the SAME issues.

So before alot of you start spouting things like 'Check the work was done' maybe you should consider the fact that Craig said to bring the car back, and he will asess it and fix any issue's that were a result of his own work.
What else could he have done?

northy
01-12-2010, 21:57
I dont think anyone has said 'Check the work was done' or even doubt APD's work on this particular thread, if they have point me in correct direction.

Most of us have seen the engine in the flesh and its a very very nice build.

Only wobba knows the full story / situation with his car. Lets leave it to him to deal with as he continues to do so.

Good luck with your car wobba - will look forward to u lapping me at the next trackday :winkey:

locked by me.