PDA

View Full Version : Nice sooty plugs



Wobba
23-08-2010, 21:11
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/IMAG0263.jpg

Replaced now, but these are what plugs look like due to over fuelling ;)

Gave increasingly bad misfires and economy...

Evogone
23-08-2010, 21:34
One of them looks oily...... :?

Brealbags
23-08-2010, 21:35
Reminds me of when I first bought the valver

Laine_16v
23-08-2010, 22:02
They are obviously sooty, but i wouldnt say they were OMGWTF outrageous. Ive seen worse plugs than that work perfectly fine?

Jamie.
23-08-2010, 22:11
Literally setting fire to £50 notes...

Wobba
23-08-2010, 22:35
Well, tomorrow I will know if the misfire I have had is cured. There appears to be oil leaking into the wells a fair bit so may need a new rubber Megane seal on camcover. Could have been oil seeping in and causing the misfire but the plugs are covered in carbon deposit pretty bad.

As for burning £50's Jamie, no biggie ;)

16v_paddy
23-08-2010, 23:01
As for burning £50's Jamie, no biggie ;)

He's got to do something with them ever since he got bored of using them for toilet roll :P

Wobba
24-08-2010, 18:44
Bad intermittent misfire still there, from cold only until up to temp, but still sounds warbly like a Subaru since putting on Supersprint manifold as well.

FFS, just what I dont want before a trackday.

jay s
24-08-2010, 21:36
may need the map adjusting now the supersprint is fitted ?

Wobba
24-08-2010, 22:18
Well, it's a shit thing to have go wrong tbh especially with so little time and a trackday in under a week.

Worst case its the bottom end ****ed or HG failure or something.

Could be a load of things...that's the bummer, I dont have time to check.

Was fine on a test drive just now but it did do it a bit at first.

robi1000
25-08-2010, 00:42
If it's fine it could be that one of the valves is not sealing as it should while it's cold. When engine is hot and things expand, it's ok. This is how things currently are with my AX. Why one of your valves is bent is another issue...

Wobba
25-08-2010, 07:55
Great. I hope its is just a sensor or minor electrical issue, just cba with more trouble...

LEIGH-ANNE
26-08-2010, 15:30
I will need to get ur car into work for saturday dan

Wobba
26-08-2010, 19:56
I will need to get ur car into work for saturday dan

Thanks mate. Will speak soon.

Wobba
26-08-2010, 20:11
Well, Ive tested injectors by unplugging power to each, sounds even worse so unless one has an intermittent failure its not them.

Took off crank sensor...its a different one to normal as I use Megane flywheel, gave it a clean and inspection.

Tried with air temp sensor disconnected (so it uses default values). Same.

Tried another CTS. No change.

Changed plugs for proper Meggy ones and cleaned up oil. It seemed better for a bit so COULD be oil contamination. Will check tomorrow.

It has gotten worse since changing manifold, but it was there before as well.

Will be receiving Meg 714 ignition coil pack tomorrow. I know these can fail so could be that.

When cold it is misfiring horribly. Can feel the engine hesitating loads on part throttle. When hot, sounds like a scooby but is smoother.

Robi: no idea how it would be possible for engine to go bad.

Lets hope it is something simple.

Tommo
26-08-2010, 20:19
My Girlfriends Megane had to have a new coil pack last year, it had exactly the same symptoms to what you're describing...hope you get it sorted mate

Wobba
26-08-2010, 20:29
Thanks Tommo :)

The F7R 710/714 single packs are sposed to be more robust than the double pack ones, but yea, they do fail. Finding one was VERY hard! Only place new is Renault! £144.53435

Evogone
26-08-2010, 22:05
Was one of the pugs oily as per the pic ? that could be the issue. :cry:

Wobba
27-08-2010, 09:29
That oil is from where the plug well was oily and leaked down onto it as I took it out. I need a new camcover seal I think...

Evogone
27-08-2010, 09:55
That oil is from where the plug well was oily and leaked down onto it as I took it out. I need a new camcover seal I think...

Is it the cam cover seal or is it the cam carriers ? My Megane cam cover leaks...

The common theme to leaks in the plug holes on ITB car is APD heads and cam carrier sealing.....

Im going to put a willy one on my with sealer and if it still leaks down the plugs them its definately cam carriers.

Wobba
27-08-2010, 11:03
Yes it could be the carriers mate, I simply don't have the time to keep on pulling my car apart to solve problems right now :( Other priorities. This will also mean timing the catcams to seal the carriers again.

The good news is the coil has just arrived...fitting at lunchtime. Let's pray it works.

northy
27-08-2010, 11:53
Have u tried replacing the spark leads - they could be braking down.

Also it could be the map rather than the engine at fault ?

if it missfires / splutters when cold its over fueling - then at part throttle it should pull clean - is it doing this ????

Wobba
27-08-2010, 12:05
Have u tried replacing the spark leads - they could be braking down.

Also it could be the map rather than the engine at fault ?

if it missfires / splutters when cold its over fueling - then at part throttle it should pull clean - is it doing this ????

All this has been though my head mate. Don't think it's the map but I could try switching back to the old map. Need a laptop for that but I dont think the map is the issue as it has been running spot on till last week, though there has been a gradual increase in a misfire ever since I got the car back from APD where it had the 714 head put on it (no HT leads).

It is shite on the cold start map tbh and this is one of the things I want to change, as it runs no lambda sensor, so yea it isn't nice at first, but the misfire has made it MUCH worse. As the map leans the fuel out when it gets hotter it improves, but still misfires.

Got the replacement coil here. I am going to put money on it that it will solve it, otherwise it's off to LA's work tomorrow for a professional opinion.

Laine_16v
27-08-2010, 12:33
Hmmm i wouldnt blame the lack of lamba on poor start problems.

I didnt run one and my map wasnt even for my engine and it was fine from cold :?:

Evogone
27-08-2010, 13:11
and the results are............................................... ..........................?

northy
27-08-2010, 13:27
your exhaust wont cause it to be worse - unless u have a leak. And the ecu is over fueling as a consequence.

U can always try a standard ecu to rule out the map.

Why do u have no lambda sensor ?

Wobba
27-08-2010, 13:46
Ok, well there is bad news: coil made no difference.

However...the supersprint manifold I put on is blowing pretty bad. Could that be doing it?

Wobba
27-08-2010, 13:47
Why do u have no lambda sensor ?

Ask Craig.

Im using Emerald ECU.

northy
27-08-2010, 13:49
the emerald ecu surely has the facility to use a lambada - did ktec fit one in the tailpipe when they mapped it ?

Do u know why it doesnt run one lol ?

Wobba
27-08-2010, 14:21
Yes Ktec had exhaust sensor in.

Dont know why he chose not to map car with lambda.

Wobba
27-08-2010, 15:03
This could be a possible dodgy crank sensor. I believe I have a Megane sensor and Meg flywheel. Can I use a valver or Williams sensor instead?

Will take it apart and clean it...or replace if I can.

Anyone got one spare for Meg or 172?

northy
27-08-2010, 15:10
It is shite on the cold start map tbh and this is one of the things I want to change, as it runs no lambda sensor, so yea it isn't nice at first, but the misfire has made it MUCH worse. As the map leans the fuel out when it gets hotter it improves, but still misfires.



Yes Ktec had exhaust sensor in.

Dont know why he chose not to map car with lambda.

Hang on - does it have a sensor fitted or not ?

Your totally confusing me!!!!!

cliokongen
27-08-2010, 15:16
They are obviously sooty, but i wouldnt say they were OMGWTF outrageous. Ive seen worse plugs than that work perfectly fine?

+ 1...
Just a little rich! :-)

Wobba
27-08-2010, 15:35
It is shite on the cold start map tbh and this is one of the things I want to change, as it runs no lambda sensor, so yea it isn't nice at first, but the misfire has made it MUCH worse. As the map leans the fuel out when it gets hotter it improves, but still misfires.



Yes Ktec had exhaust sensor in.

Dont know why he chose not to map car with lambda.

Hang on - does it have a sensor fitted or not ?

Your totally confusing me!!!!!

Ok, The car does not have a lambda sensor in it as Craig mapped the car with a cold start map without using a lambda probe.

Ktec used a AFR sensor in the back end of the exhaust to map the car.

My new question is can I plug a valver/Williams crank sensor to work with a Meg flywheel as this is the only sensor left that I've not messed with that could be causing issue. Already replaced CTS.

Evogone
27-08-2010, 15:43
Have you not fitted the coil pack ?

Wobba
27-08-2010, 15:54
Have you not fitted the coil pack ?

Yes, no change :(

Evogone
27-08-2010, 16:15
Compression and leak test and new lead from coil pack (renault ones rubbish and should use a seperate ne much more reliable..........Could be one cyclinder thats the issue.

Take the new plugs out and see if you still have an oily plug.

If not then could be cam timing / why it didnt make HP in the first place.....

Evogone
27-08-2010, 16:17
Oh and check voltage to ECU when first starting and running. Mine had a bad earth and was struggling to start as it only got 11.5v.

Wobba
27-08-2010, 18:28
Ok thanks. I have just replace the crank sensor and at first it seemed great (could be imagining it) but misfire still present :(

No problems starting, its holding the revs that has become worse and worse so it just stalls unless hot.

Wobba
27-08-2010, 18:30
Compression and leak test

Being done tomorrow!

Wobba
27-08-2010, 22:23
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/The%20ITB%20Album/IMAG0270.jpg

Plug area appears clean and no leaks from cam carriers, phew.

There is a theory appearing: The cracked Willy manifold has led to a map that's slightly rich, exacerbated by my new supersprint manifold, which is also blowing. And also the exhaust which is now blowing a bit more due to pissing about with manifold.

This may well have messed up the AFR and compression or whatever and be making it run like a sack of shit.

The other theory is the piston ring on one cylinder has gone or a valve is screwed or something. Hope not.

So tomorrow is compression check and messing with exhausts!

Tommo
27-08-2010, 23:34
Jesus mate, nothing but bad luck for you at the mo :cry:

How can a new manifold be blowing, unless it's 2nd hand and it was already cracked....or fitted incorrectly :?

Anyway, hope you get it sorted tomorrow, looking forward to seeing it in action on Monday :evil:

Wobba
28-08-2010, 00:39
Think the joint is blowing, but it could be somewhere else as well, plus I bodged the exhaust a bit to make it reach the downpipe (would have reached if flexi joint was on).

Yea, this has proven to be a real bitch this time! Usually my approach of 'replace EVERYTHING POSSIBLE' works :/

Evogone
28-08-2010, 05:02
What stopped the leaking ? new Cam cover seal ?

Good luck on the comp test..!

Laine_16v
28-08-2010, 10:00
Nothing exahust side will effect your engine, it is not metered! As like mine it runs no lambda (open loop), therefore there is no way a blowing manifold can induce biased AFR readings from a blow, because there is no lamabe sensor to try and correct it.

Its the same sort of thing with lumpy cams and a map sensor, the engine can see the inlet pressure changing rappidly and trys to constatntly change the fuel, but can never keep up.Take the MAP sensor out the equation and the engine is "blind" to the pressure changes and runs s default amount of fuel (directly related to your map and no pressure sensor).

Thanks for reading my saturday morning waffle :D

Wobba
28-08-2010, 19:50
The cam seal may be leaking a bit, not sure yet, but the carriers are not which is the main thing.

I know what yer saying Laine. Thing is a blowing exhaust/manifold will mess up the AFR results when mapping a bit so will probably be set up by programmer to run richer than it should be (mine is).

Exhaust has been changed now. Most of the leaking has been stopped, it does make for a better drive. The smaller bore of the Mongoose (smaller lol) means it feels pokier but I think loses a little top end, however, I can now actually hear my ITB's...and my stereo. Just.

The misfire only appeared for a short time today when Leighanne and I tested the car with new exhaust. She reckons its very quick ;)

I cant find the fault and today after a good run it was fine. All the way home it was fine as well, except for tell tale sign of wheel bearing or CV (only 16 months old) starting to go.

I suspect the same problem will manifest sometimes at random, if so I will either wait for something to fail and sort it then or leave it with someone I can trust to do it and borrow someone's car to get to work.... :p

northy
01-09-2010, 11:03
sorry we seam to be talking about different lambada sensors

Q. do u run one in the exhaust just before the cat is what i was asking - not a after market one fitted when mapping the car

Laine_16v
01-09-2010, 18:46
No, he runs open loop. No lambda control.

northy
02-09-2010, 07:59
and what is the advantage for this ?

16v_paddy
02-09-2010, 20:21
Probably down to the standalone management being much more sophisticated & able to run it better than what the standard stuff can?

Evogone
02-09-2010, 21:23
Its to do with lambda being only being utilised for upto 30% throttle and under 3500rpm usually, so if it a fast road / competition car it just one less thing to go wrong.

A wide band lambda is usually fitted but is only normally used to map the car as it gives a proper output that can be used for mapping and is closer to the engine rather than the back of the exhaust position so can give a more accurate AFR.

Sometime they are used in self learn mode so to minimise mapping time needed to some like to use it some dont.