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View Full Version : engine back in - now the fun starts.... (help please!)



talkingfish
07-03-2010, 09:09
Put the engine back into 0425 yesterday.... installation went well but have two major issues currently that I need help/advice on...

1) Engine started OK, but was idling very high (over 2,000rpm) and when the throttle was pressed it stalled.... what could this be? I'm going to re-strip down the air filter / throttle body area to see... could it be an issue with the throttle potentiometer as I've put a new throttle body and inlet manifold on? If so, how do you adjust it or does anyone have any suggestions as to what this could be?

2) Gear arm adjustment - tried and tried yesterday to get the gear arm adjustment correct but couldn't do it - are there any techniques anyone can suggest for getting this right?

Thanks in anticipation guys!

robi1000
07-03-2010, 10:05
Sounds like TPS problem. Judging by your description it might be turned too much anticlockwise. Try turning it a bit clockwise. For a proper adjustment you need williams tech manual and a multimeter.

jw
07-03-2010, 12:04
i would not adjust anything if the car was running fine before it was taken out, i would say the problem is else where, as for the gear linkage i just marked it with paint before i took the engine out so i could have a reference mark you just need to make small adjustment to the left or right, it helps if you have the front of the car on axle stands to see if you can get all the gears by wheel rotation. i had a problem getting reverse, got there in the end like i say its TINY adjustments..

Wobba
07-03-2010, 12:11
Hahahaha usual shit!

Sounds like an air leak to me. Try fiddling with the pipe from the ISCV when engine running and anything else going into the inlet manifold. All the nuts are on to secure the manifold the head yea?

Gear adjustment...yea...its a bitch. Helps if tehre are two of you. Get the car in the air, mark clevis bar (the one with the grooves on) and the clamp part it fits into. Get in the car, put in reverse, 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc find which gears you cant get and work from there.

If you cant get fifth for example I believe you need to twist the clevis bar like 0.5mm a time anti clockwise (I seem to remember) to fine tune it. TINY increments at a time, its super sensitive. Each time you adjust, get back in car and try it. You may overdo it then find you cannot get 1st or reverse...so marking the bar with your starting point becomes a good point of reference.

MatBrown
07-03-2010, 14:09
Shouldn't have even messed with the linkage, if you remove it from the gearbox under the rubber boot no set-up is required.


Mat.

talkingfish
07-03-2010, 14:52
thanks for your help guys... stripped down air filter and throttle body and re-tried... car now won't start at all... starter motor turns over and fuel pump primes but nothing after that.... currently going through process of elimination.. cleaning plugs, checking leads, fuses etc. but concerned that it was running last night but not now....

Mat - unfortunately we forgot to remove the gear linkage when removing the engine, hence it got damaged and needed re-connecting....

jw
07-03-2010, 15:01
this may sound silly but have you enough petrol? or clamped off the fuel lines under the car??

Wobba
07-03-2010, 16:27
Check ECU connectors and check board. May be blown.

northy
07-03-2010, 23:06
fuel lines on the right way ?

Are you getting a spark ?

MatBrown
08-03-2010, 00:01
Mat - unfortunately we forgot to remove the gear linkage when removing the engine, hence it got damaged and needed re-connecting....

Might be better off buying another one that hasn't been messed with.


Mat.

Daz.
08-03-2010, 00:56
When mine had that bump I got it back and it was terrible! went back for adjustment and it was ****ing amazing!

talkingfish
08-03-2010, 21:17
right, checked and done the following things...

1) checked all fuses - OK
2) checked all connections - OK
3) Fuel getting to injector rail and fuel pump priming OK
4) Removed ISCV and cleaned inside and refitted
5) Checked coil against previous one that I knew worked - OK
6) sprayed WD40 inside all HT leads and re-fitted
7) Removed spark plugs, cleaned and returned
8) removed dizzy & cleaned rotor & connectors

still nothing.... any more ideas?? how do you know 100% I'm getting a spark? could the alarm system be malfunctioning?

GavinMccoull
08-03-2010, 23:24
Pull the plugs out and get somebody to turn the ignition, soon know if your getting a spark just be careful not to electricute yourself :lol: Sounds strange maybe its the immobiliser. Was the timing done when the engine was out?

Gav

Coops
09-03-2010, 11:36
you want me to pop round darren mate have a check over it with you? just drop me a txt or something

talkingfish
10-03-2010, 19:55
right, found out what it is.. no spark... bought some new plugs, pulled a ht lead out and put it on one of the new plugs and turned the starter... no spark... now, what can cause that?? dizzy & rotor? is there something in the alarm system that stops it sparking??

MatBrown
10-03-2010, 20:11
right, found out what it is.. no spark... bought some new plugs, pulled a ht lead out and put it on one of the new plugs and turned the starter... no spark... now, what can cause that?? dizzy & rotor? is there something in the alarm system that stops it sparking??

You did earth the plug out while doing this?
If so, check from the coil direct, this will eliminate the dizzy.


Mat.

BigSteveT
10-03-2010, 23:51
Earth the thread of the plug when you're cranking the engine over & see if it's still not sparking? You need to check that Dizzy cap closely :?

BTW did you fit a new gasket with the new inlet manifold?

talkingfish
11-03-2010, 11:55
Steve - have got a new dizzy, rotor and TDC sensor - I get them tomorrow... will do the earth test tonight... yes, fitted a new gasket when I put the inlet manifold back on...

talkingfish
11-03-2010, 18:58
right, earthed the spark plug and I AM getting a spark...!! the rev counter is moving when I turn the starter so it's not the TDC... I've checked all the earth points too...

any more ideas? alarm system / immobliser? something in the ecu?

GavinMccoull
11-03-2010, 19:16
Oops sorry for forgetting to mention that you need to earth the plug :/ Prob caused you a whole load of greif that you didn't need. :?

Gav

MatBrown
11-03-2010, 19:24
Is fuel getting into the chambers?
Take a plug out and see if its wet.
Could be the FPR.


Mat.

talkingfish
11-03-2010, 20:49
FPR - fuel pressure regulator? Is that the thing that sits on the end of the injector rail the other end to where the fuel lines are??

plugs are wet which would indicate fuel is getting through, yes? there is also a stench of petrol why I try and start the car each time...

northy
11-03-2010, 22:45
you sure the fuel pipes are on the right way around?

once the plugs get wet - bin them. get some new ones in.

MatBrown
12-03-2010, 00:29
you sure the fuel pipes are on the right way around?

once the plugs get wet - bin them. get some new ones in.

But not till you get it sorted, else you'll go through a lot of plugs.


Mat.

MatBrown
12-03-2010, 00:32
If your getting a spark and your getting fuel it's down to the timing.
Check the TDC just in case.
And try yet another coil.


Mat.

Wobba
12-03-2010, 01:32
FPR - fuel pressure regulator? Is that the thing that sits on the end of the injector rail the other end to where the fuel lines are??

Yes.

talkingfish
12-03-2010, 11:33
If it's timing, what do I need to do to investigate that?

talkingfish
12-03-2010, 12:14
not sure what I could have done to effect the timing whilst the engine was out... not changed the cam belt, only the aux belt, water pump and alternator...??

Coops
12-03-2010, 12:16
if you've not touched the belt then siming should be fine

TDC sensor its sounding like

as said mate i will attempt to pop up tomos with some spares i know work and we'll do a bit of diagnosis murder :wink:

katbloke
12-03-2010, 12:56
ive had it where wilma wouldnt start, took off tdc sensor, cleaned it and all its respective terminals, put it back on and it fired up

talkingfish
12-03-2010, 14:33
I have a nice new TDC sensor waiting in the wings to try out... :wink:

Coops
12-03-2010, 15:04
get the spanners out mate and get it tested, hopefully will sort it and save me a trip ;-) altho i would like to come see the car again and go for a spin when the roads are dry and salt free again 8)

BigSteveT
12-03-2010, 20:31
I reckon it's got to be something to do with a dodgy connector or something ballsing it up??

Coops
12-03-2010, 20:33
he's checked tdc sensor and put on new one, no different. most confusing. as you say steve must be a dodgy connection or something by sounds of it

BigSteveT
12-03-2010, 20:50
Right then guys, what's the remote diagnostic then??

All the fuel lines & connections are correct & securely made.

The car started first time on the key & was ok apart from the high idle speed.

I thought it was the choke keeping the idle high so didn't think about it & let it run.

After a seconds the idle didn't drop so i gave it a few blips on the throttle & still no reduction in idle.

We then turned it off & fiddled with a few things then started it again.....

Again high idle

Turned car off again & then had another fiddle...

Started car again & then blipped throttle & it died & will then not re-start?

I think it must be something like a duff connection or signal to the ECU or something but not being a Clio Williams-phile i'm a bit lost??

If you can go & have a look Coops that would be great mate & i'll treat you to a beer at a future RTOC event! ;)

BigSteveT
12-03-2010, 20:56
Is their anything that needs to be set up when fitting different inlet & exhaust manifolds???

Coops
12-03-2010, 21:38
no all mechanical/physical changes to the engine will make no difference, i can fire up the turbo on a williams or valver ecu no problem and it'll run and idle, just cant boost as it'll pink like a right un.

i'm popping in to check up on Darren and 0425 tomorrow, see how we do

talkingfish
12-03-2010, 21:56
ahhhhhhh, thanks guys.... Steve, don't worry, it will get sorted in the end... (though I must admit it is now all a bit strange as I've tried everything suggested on here..) -

I'm hoping Coops will give a fresh set of eyes in case we missed anything putting it back together or if anything has happened since...

talkingfish
13-03-2010, 18:03
this gets stranger and stranger.... Coops came over this afternoon (many thanks my friend!) and we tried a few things...

Swapped over both ecu and map sensor from my car to Coops' and they were fine... tried his on mine and nothing...

Tried spraying "quick start" in the manifold.... nothing...

Removed plugs and cleaned, checked for spark and replaced...

Fitted new dizzy cap and rotor...

Car STILL does not want to start.... gonna do a compression test tomorrow to see if there is any damage to the engine....

Coops
13-03-2010, 23:59
ai its got me at a complete loss Darren mate, i was confident we could sort it but that wore away after two hours or so of tinkering and trying :(

up to now i've failed to get hold of a comp tester, but will hopefuly get one in the morning :D as said though this isnt scare mongery its just elimination, we have fuel and spark so next stop is compression 8)

MatBrown
14-03-2010, 00:16
Did you swap the coil again?


Mat.

Wobba
14-03-2010, 00:17
Tried starting with full throttle yea?

Sure the timing is correct?

Compression test should help eliminate that. Poked a torch in and had a look inside the chambers with the sparks out? Swimming in fuel?

Why was the engine out in the first place?

2 live
14-03-2010, 02:34
have you had the leads off the dizzy??

im assuming coops checked they were on right way anyway ;)

sooty666
14-03-2010, 10:59
im thinking TPS.. are you using the origial throttle body??

BigSteveT
14-03-2010, 12:10
Tried starting with full throttle yea? - No i never tried that. Although after reading the guide on high idle speed then maybe that would be something to try?

Sure the timing is correct? - Darren didn't touch the Timing belt but did replace the Aux Belt? Is their something that can be done with the Aux belt run that can knacker up the timing run??

Compression test should help eliminate that. Poked a torch in and had a look inside the chambers with the sparks out? Swimming in fuel? - No?
Why was the engine out in the first place? - Repair Gearbox & Tidy up engine bay.

have you had the leads off the dizzy?? Yes i'm sure Darren had the leads off the Dizzy but would have thought they were back on?

im thinking TPS.. are you using the origial throttle body?? - No the complete Inlet manifold & throttle body was changed for a "flowed" one? Maybe that needs changing over with the old one?

kenny
14-03-2010, 12:11
Common faults to both problems of high revs and non starting are faults with, Mass Air Flow/Coolant Temp sensors, ECU, Immobiliser and induction leaks. If there is fuel and spark it’s likely an engine control fault. Have you re-checked the engine management fuse in the bulkhead fusebox since trying all those parts?

alex_blue16v
14-03-2010, 12:37
this exact same thing happened with a mates corsa after two litre turbo conversion it ran once when we finished but it wouldnt go again. found out it was a dodgy coil so replaced that but it still wouldnt go.
After many days head scratching, earth checking etc, we took the plugs out overnight to let any fuel that might have collected from the extended cranking sessions evaporate, gave the plugs a quick clean and started first time in the morning.

Maybe try this?

talkingfish
14-03-2010, 19:00
Common faults to both problems of high revs and non starting are faults with, Mass Air Flow/Coolant Temp sensors, ECU, Immobiliser and induction leaks. If there is fuel and spark it’s likely an engine control fault. Have you re-checked the engine management fuse in the bulkhead fusebox since trying all those parts?

fuse OK - we tried a working ECU of another Willy and it would not fire, conversely we tried my ECU on the other Willy and it worked fine... could it be something further down the line than the ECU?

talkingfish
14-03-2010, 19:01
Did you swap the coil again?


Mat.

but if I'm getting a spark surely coil OK, yes?

talkingfish
14-03-2010, 19:03
im thinking TPS.. are you using the origial throttle body??

throttle body has been changed but original potentiometer has been used... throttle body is just a mechanical part, yes? would you suggest changing these parts too?

MatBrown
14-03-2010, 19:14
Did you swap the coil again?


Mat.

but if I'm getting a spark surely coil OK, yes?

Thats the mistake i made once, the amplifier was screwing things up.


Mat.

BigSteveT
14-03-2010, 19:14
Does the williams have a diagnostic port or is it pre Full ECU control??

MatBrown
14-03-2010, 19:16
There's a socket in the fuse flap inside the car.


Mat.

Wobba
14-03-2010, 19:33
OBD 1 though, not II.

BigSteveT
14-03-2010, 19:34
What would that tell you? Would it give some ideas??

Does any club member have a code reader??

Coops
14-03-2010, 20:22
i tried starting on full throttle, no different

will swap coil again on tuesday when do comp test

tried drying and carb cleaning the plugs and replacing, no different, tried leaving cylinders open to dry out as they were full of fuel, no different so darren is leaving them open now till tuesday just in case

will try without cts conected but it should still start with faulty cts or misaligned tps just wont run right, but the cars not starting, it tries a bit then nothing

2 live
14-03-2010, 22:53
check the leads have been put back in right order....fuel and spark.....should start, unless the fuels going in cylinder no.1 and the sparks firing cylinder no.3.....id give that a try 1st tbh.

Wobba
15-03-2010, 00:10
So the cylinders are flooded. It may start next time :)

Spark leads look in the right order looking at pics on other thread.

Can't see anything unusual other than the map sensor vacuum hose being a bit twisted but shouldn't cause any probs surely...

Only sensor that would cause it to not work is the MAP sensor if not plugged in as far as my meagre knowledge goes.

Next time try swapping ignition coils with a working car.

Hope its nothing big and mechanical...

Coops
15-03-2010, 10:22
will try coil off my williams on it on tuesday, as said we checked map sensor and wiring, all looks fine and map sensor is fine as it works on my car.

Jon come on man, i may make school boy errors sometimes but believe me the leads are correct way round, its been checked 1000 times ;-)

northy
15-03-2010, 10:48
You tried swapping the ecu ?

Coops
15-03-2010, 12:39
yes, my ecu doesnt work on his, same problems and his ecu works fine on mine

2 live
15-03-2010, 21:43
will try coil off my williams on it on tuesday, as said we checked map sensor and wiring, all looks fine and map sensor is fine as it works on my car.

Jon come on man, i may make school boy errors sometimes but believe me the leads are correct way round, its been checked 1000 times ;-)


lol.start with the simple things mate ;)

talkingfish
18-03-2010, 13:59
got a mobile diagnostic engineer coming tomorrow to have a plug in to see if that tells me anything... if not, then another thing to dismiss...

northy
18-03-2010, 14:01
you tried swapping flywheel sensors ?

Coops
18-03-2010, 14:08
believe he's tried a few but not swapped mine onto it no

northy
18-03-2010, 14:12
If your getting fuel and a spark it should start. All the earths ok, no relays missing? Fuel pump priming?

Have you tried bump starting it ?

Coops
18-03-2010, 14:51
as far as can see earths are fine, all relays are clicking as they should and fuel pump is priming and pumping no problems

not tried bumping it but surely wont make a difference, if wont start of starter then wont bump, as all bumping does is mimic the starter

northy
18-03-2010, 14:58
Unless its that flooded it needs bumping to clear it all.


Thats what happened to me once when i connected the fuel hoses the wrong way around - wouldnt start till it was bumped and cleared

Coops
18-03-2010, 16:34
left plugs out and turned over then left for half hour to let petrol evaporate, should of done trick surely?

talkingfish
19-03-2010, 20:15
right, finally now appears we have a diagnosis....

diagnostic check revealed nothing... however a compression check revealed 3 of the 4 cylinders were down....

put some oil in the cylinders and the car started... hoorray!!! BUT...

car would not idle correctly and coolant was boiling... another pressure check revealed low readings on cylinders 1, 3 & 4... which my friends I would suggest is a head gasket!!!!!!

gutted is not the word.... after stripping the thing down and putting it back together it has to be done all over again... :rant: :rant: :headbutt: :headbutt: :flogging: :flogging: :titanic: :titanic:

I'm off for a bit of..... :shots: :shots: :shots:

Coops
19-03-2010, 20:20
bugger mate, can't believe the cars lost compression, engine was fine before it was removed wasnt it? :(

talkingfish
19-03-2010, 20:36
aye, engine was fine.. got me to the'ring and back plus some hot laps... notice water pump was shagged when I took it off during the rebuild... whether this had put strain on the heat gasket and it was on the way out anyway... the 6 month lay-off just accelerated the failure....

BigSteveT
20-03-2010, 10:53
:mechanic:

talkingfish
20-03-2010, 10:59
:mechanic: = :rant:

Wobba
20-03-2010, 12:42
Well at least you have found the problem. After messing about with it so much lately you'll be well positioned to have the head off in no time, checked and skimmed, and back on with a lovely new gasket, bolts and belt :)