whats the best throttle body kit for the clio 16v williams

[kermack]

put a f7r engine and gear box from a megane in the clio with the clio head. had alot of work done on it kent cams flowed and ported. so thinking of getting throttle bodys to finish it off. can enyone tell me the best kit to get

[Coops]

depends mate

if you want it all done for you cant go far wrong in contacting stan @ APD

http://www.ap-developments.com/

[2 live]

best off savin urself a lotta quid n DIY tbh. get the mapping done by someone with a r/r set up ....roberts ur mums bro.


jenveys are dear, webers do the job just as well and at a fraction of the cost. bike bodies can be had even cheaper, but are a little too small omho.

[busterhymes]

what weber throttle bodies are good for the williams. do you have experience of running the weber units and what improvements in terms of performance do you get and how does this compare to jenvey units. i'm also guessing a standalone ecu is required :)

[2 live]

yes i ran my williams on webers. complete kit. weber alpha ecu is supplied with the kit. was £1700 for the kit, loom, mani, bodies, ecu etc.

i got the kit off another car, but it was mapped badly, and i never got round to getting it mapped correctly either. performance wise....made a shit load of diff. had quite a few do's with my mates ra spec scoob, and he couldnt get anywhere near me. neither could any of the others i had a play with. only car i had probs with was jesus' 172 but then, with a decent mapping sesion, i reckon that would have been same story.


how it compares to jenveys i dont know, the bodies were fitted to the same engine that i raced the white bodied beast with, in std inlet i lost about 1/2 car to a car legnth per gear, with the bodies on, i reckon id have pulled on it.

[2 live]

gunner had a quick ride in it, whilst we were comparing over the moors against his vx. it also came about that we had a little play with a scoob on that run too.....hehe.

[busterhymes]

was the complete kit specific for the williams :)

[2 live]

well.williams/16v clio yes.

[busterhymes]

ta for that, food for thought as they say

[sideways danny]

http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37054

worth a look. The jenvey bodies are definitely better than the weber ones

[Wobba]

We all know ITB's make better power, but how did you find the driving was with increased torque, and how about the economy?

[2 live]

We all know ITB's make better power, but how did you find the driving was with increased torque, and how about the economy?


how did i find driving it..hmmmmm............. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:



and sooooooo much fun hooning round in it. did the school run every day, wsnt completely stripped as some would have you believe. had the rear seats in for 1 of the kids ;)


economy. lol....like i said mate it was badly mapped. coupled with my right foots tendency to get stuck to the floor....was a bit thirsty lol.

[Wobba]

Thanks :) But with a proper map for economy it could potentially be pretty good right?

With the ECU's for the kits you can have about 3 maps cant you, so one for econo-mode and other two for moderate or extreme levels of performance I guess.

Good to hear you did the school run lol. I need my car for the daily commute for now...don't want it to be undriveable. I guess the torque makes it a nicer drive for pootling about as well...

[Wobba]

Thanks :) But with a proper map for economy it could potentially be pretty good right?

With the ECU's for the kits you can have about 3 maps cant you, so one for econo-mode and other two for moderate or extreme levels of performance I guess.

Good to hear you did the school run lol. I need my car for the daily commute for now...don't want it to be undriveable. I guess the torque makes it a nicer drive for pootling about as well...

The tripple maps thing is pointless, when on low engine load that's what gives you the economy, the only advantage 3 maps has is when running a boosted car.

I drove my car on ITB's everyday for 3 years and it was fine, so I wouldn't worry :)

Ok cool. I guess you could map it for partial throttle input as being 'economode' rather than switchable maps.

[Wobba]

I want the huge flames :D

[sideways danny]

the only advantage of multiple maps is changing for different octane fuel. Put IMO, even that is a waste of time, it only takes seconds to upload a mpa from a laptop, it takes longer to drain the tank and change the fuel. Multi-maps is a gimmick

[sideways danny]

Thanks :) But with a proper map for economy it could potentially be pretty good right?

With the ECU's for the kits you can have about 3 maps cant you, so one for econo-mode and other two for moderate or extreme levels of performance I guess.

Good to hear you did the school run lol. I need my car for the daily commute for now...don't want it to be undriveable. I guess the torque makes it a nicer drive for pootling about as well...

right, to attempt to dispell a couple of myths, mapping is done one of 2 ways Either for race, or for road. Race mapping isn't done with economy compromise at lower RPM. Ignition maping is (or should be) done to give maximum torque at each load point, this doesn't change, the engine wants what it wants, all you have to do is identify how much advance it wants at each point. The only changes this need normally is sometimes you soften or smooth the transition between load points to make stop start driving nicer. Fuel mapping can be a little more flexible, for the road you have a target in mind for each zone of the load table and you can stick to that target fairly closely. For race, you can apply the same attitude to fuel as you do to ignition, give it what it wants to make peak at each point.

Mapping for boost can be harder as fuel can be used as a coolant to stop detonation, but too much fuel for cooling can lose power. Again, all you can do is give it what it wants. You can't just magic up more power.

[Evogone]

the only advantage of multiple maps is changing for different octane fuel. Put IMO, even that is a waste of time, it only takes seconds to upload a mpa from a laptop, it takes longer to drain the tank and change the fuel. Multi-maps is a gimmick

Gimmick for road car but not competition cars. Lots of cars are mapped for pump fuel and max octain allowed in the regs fuel Carless 103 for example. This is especially critical for turbocars as there is the greatest oppotunity for extra bhp.

Run a 103 map on pump fuel and will eventually meltdown

Run a pump fuel map with Carless 103 then you dont get the benifit.

If you can switch maps then it saves all the hassle of getting the laptop out etc.

[stan]

Just for the record, Weber/webcon gear isnt a fraction of the cost of Jenveys at all. If anything its dearer, and more awkward in terms of trumpets and filtration available off the shelf.

[stan]

And the triple map feature on the K3, whilst could be seen as a bit gimmiky, has its uses.
The 450bhp v8 Dax Rush ive built for example, there will definately have a traction friendly map :lol:
But I think for your standard 2.0 NA its un-necessary, good economy and good torque/power can be achieved on one map file.

[2 live]

Just for the record, Weber/webcon gear isnt a fraction of the cost of Jenveys at all. If anything its dearer, and more awkward in terms of trumpets and filtration available off the shelf.

yeah the trumpets are a bit cumbersome, and filters.lol.

but swings and roundabouts really.

for an off the shelf kit....its pretty cheap. mani, ecu, loom, bodies, well everything really except the map and shorter rad

[Wobba]

Just to resurrect this thread from the dead quickly...

Although a standard engine with ITB's may produce a relatively (figuratively speaking) low power increase by themselves, would it be fair to say that any further mods you did such as cams etc may have an improved effect on a ITB'd setup than they would on a standard throttle setup? Obviously with mapping...

Also, would it be fair to say that ITB's are not just about peak figures but the spread of increased torque/power throughout the rev range?

Soon I will be sending a 714 head to Craig at APD to work on. I intend to keep the coil setup with an aftermarket ECU, have it fully rebuilt and for Craig to wave his wand at it for a bit more oomph. Am I right in guessing this would be an ideal base for ITB's? Any vague idea of typical figures to expect with mapping with ITB's attached?

As a side note, next week I am ordering a Gripper LSD and having it fitted at some point too! Should be a fun summer ;)

[stan]

Typically you'll see about 175-180bhp on a std williams engine, and around 200-210bhp with cams & headwork, obviously very spec dependent, these are conservative figures i guess.

With just itb's the torque produced by the engine is increased EVERYWHERE in the rpm range, so the car puls harder everywhere. Combine this with a huge increase in throttle response, and the drive really is transformed.

[Daz.]

how much is headwork on an f4r head out of curioisity?

[stan]

how much is headwork on an f4r head out of curioisity?

650+vat from me, this is a fully modified casting, recut seats, refaced and back-cut valves, skimmed, fully assembled with new stem seals, and also includes matched inlet manifold.

[northy]

can i ask stan if the headwork u do comes with flow figures before and after ?

[stan]

It can do, but they are pretty meaningless on the scheme of things though, so I tend not to bother. My flowbench sees very little use.

With the addition of my engine dyno, the plan and all round better option is to have the heads advertised with % power/torque gain, obviously this means you have a quantifiable figure to work wiht, as opposed to a CFM which means nothing on its own really.

[northy]

cheers pal. 8)