Very interesting article about braking - maybe worth a stick

[16v_paddy]

Been sent this link & I think it should be read by everyone as it's very informative and it's opened my eyes to the truth & technology behind braking systems :wink:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml

[kenny]

Deff a sticky required on this, a really good article which debuks the idea that dot5 fluid is the bees knees.

[Richardcard1974]

There are a few basic facts that must always be kept in mind when discussing brake systems:

1) The brakes don't stop the vehicle - the tires do. This means that braking distance measured on a single stop from a highway legal speed or higher is almost totally dependent upon the stopping ability of the tires in use

Backs up pretty much everything ive been saying about the pointlessness of 4 pots for road use for the last three years.

[Richardcard1974]

4) Control and balance are at least as important as ultimate stopping power.

Again backs up what i have been saying. Being able to stop is reliant on the ability to maintain control of the vehicle, which requires attention to both the fron and rear brakes in any upgrade, and measurements of the bias change.

[Richardcard1974]

5) Braking performance is about more than just brakes. In order for even the best braking systems to function effectively, tires, suspension and driving techniques must be optimized.

Did i write this artical? Seems to be an exact replication of ALL the arguments i have been trying in vain to bring to the attention of other car enthusiasts for many years, only to be ignored.

[Richardcard1974]

Warning do not read these articals if you belong to the 'coilies and 4pots' brigade as they may seriously damage your reality perception.

[J o n]

your certainly right about 4 pots Rob, imo they are overkill on a Clio for road AND track use. Going out in the GDI demo car at Snetterton and the brakes were too good imo, it would do an endo under hard braking. I suppose it doesn't harm to have them, but I'd spend the money on better discs and some decent pads for a fraction of the cost... which is what I did and the car stops incredibly well imo

[busterhymes]

have to agree had wilwoods on ansd just to powerful for everyday use back to std now plenty good enough

[Richardcard1974]

your certainly right about 4 pots Rob, imo they are overkill on a Clio for road AND track use. Going out in the GDI demo car at Snetterton and the brakes were too good imo, it would do an endo under hard braking. I suppose it doesn't harm to have them, but I'd spend the money on better discs and some decent pads for a fraction of the cost... which is what I did and the car stops incredibly well imo

Well clio cup race cars ran a standard system with uprated pads. I cant see why an 900 kg clio track car would need uprated brakes past that spec.

[Coops]

because they look shiny :wink:

[J o n]

your certainly right about 4 pots Rob, imo they are overkill on a Clio for road AND track use. Going out in the GDI demo car at Snetterton and the brakes were too good imo, it would do an endo under hard braking. I suppose it doesn't harm to have them, but I'd spend the money on better discs and some decent pads for a fraction of the cost... which is what I did and the car stops incredibly well imo

Well clio cup race cars ran a standard system with uprated pads. I cant see why an 900 kg clio track car would need uprated brakes past that spec.

I used totally standard discs and pads last time out and they were pretty good. The pads did wear a fair bit and the discs were mullered by the end of it, but they lasted a day of abuse. Changed to better discs and pads after, as decent pads tend to eat the standard Renault discs on track in my experience.

[LEIGH-ANNE]

because they look shiny :wink:

Can i have a pick of just how shiney please? :D

[MAXIBOY]

its misses out some much though.. :lol:

unsprung weight being one of the main reason for alloy calipers.

plus this one company is claiming its the only one making decent kits..

what about AP brembo etc..they ignore this stuff unlikley and yet all the companies make big brake kits..

plus you can improve on the standard stuff..otherwise why didn't the rally/race teams just run the standard stuff

think we did this all once when you banned me from your site for not agreeing with you..

[Richardcard1974]

its misses out some much though.. :lol:

unsprung weight being one of the main reason for alloy calipers.

plus this one company is claiming its the only one making decent kits..

what about AP brembo etc..they ignore this stuff unlikley and yet all the companies make big brake kits..

plus you can improve on the standard stuff..otherwise why didn't the rally/race teams just run the standard stuff

think we did this all once when you banned me from your site for not agreeing with you..

Add in the weight of the alloy bell housing and larger discs and any caliper saving is offset by this increase in weight.

[MAXIBOY]

alloy bells weigh very little..rotors weigh less than standard discs..

and calipers are significantly lighter saving weight in the most important place..

unsprung..plus tyre technology has increased significantly over the standard 185/55 15 michelins originally in 1992.

more so for those running high performance type track tyres..

[Richardcard1974]

alloy bells weigh very little..rotors weigh less than standard discs..

and calipers are significantly lighter saving weight in the most important place..

unsprung..plus tyre technology has increased significantly over the standard 185/55 15 michelins originally in 1992.

more so for those running high performance type track tyres..


Well my alloy bell housing, larger discs and larger superlite calipers weigh about the same as the standard set up in total weight.

[Coops]

because they look shiny :wink:

Can i have a pick of just how shiney please? :D

what are we talking about here?my brakes i hope :P

[LEIGH-ANNE]

because they look shiny :wink:

Can i have a pick of just how shiney please? :D

what are we talking about here?my brakes i hope :P

Yea of course...ur hi-spec 4-pot front calipers and cross drilled and vented discs

:wink: :P

[Jamie.]

My old hi-spec calipers wieghed more than the moon and thats fact.

[Wobba]

because they look shiny :wink:

Can i have a pick of just how shiney please? :D

what are we talking about here?my brakes i hope :P

You have brakes? Gay :)

[MAXIBOY]

My old hi-spec calipers wieghed more than the moon and thats fact.

how much does the moon way..

[fasterthanjesus]

i may or may not be on my own. but the 4 pots kit made braking more responsive after a good blast. something the standard setup didnt do, even after i changed the whole lot.

i think its down to driving style. and if you notice something that doesnt suit or feel right to your driving style - then change it.

i have been happy by the change to 4 pots. others may not. but i wouldnt recommend it as a standard change. i would recommend low temp rad and fan sensor as a must.

each to their own. it felt broken - so i changed it. if it doesnt feel broken - dont fix it.

[MAXIBOY]

no your not..

plus on a standard power car i believe they are up too the job when new/maintained..as i have often said

but this doesn't their the best option always..more so when power speed and traction is increase significantly..

as said pays your money makes your choice.. 8)

[Richardcard1974]

How many people have fitted 4 pots have removed a brand new set of renault calipers to fit a brand new set of 4 pots?

Anything new will be better than anything full of rust.

[MAXIBOY]

your point being...

:?

[2 live]

grrrrrrrrr.....summat me n bobster agree on.

its a stance he stole from me years ago.........;)

[schakal]

i dont agree on that rust comment .
most of the time you will find out the owner
never pays any attention to the braking system
and they expect it to last and perform forever .
most people dont even know how often they have to flush
and refill brake fluid ffs !!

again the standard system on renos are plenty enough for the daily commuting
if you have a faster car or are a bit of a competant driver and want to stop faster either
on road or track ,than there are other ways
of slowing down/stopping a car quicker

COMPRESSION FUR DAS FOOKIN GEWINN !!! :wink:

[MAXIBOY]

grrrrrrrrr.....summat me n bobster agree on.

wash your mouth out young man.. :lol:

[ThRaXaIR]

My old hi-spec calipers wieghed more than the moon and thats fact.

how much does the moon way..

duh the same as a wheel of old stilton. so roughly about 9 pounds iirc so it fact its not to bad and he should quit his whining! :P

[col]

Exellent post paddy......considering what weve been discussing. :goodposting:

[16v_paddy]

How many people have fitted 4 pots have removed a brand new set of renault calipers to fit a brand new set of 4 pots?

I have & it's the best thing I've done on my car imo

maybe they are overkill but I don't particularly care, as they've given me the confidence to drive mine so much harder & beyond where I've had the std caliper setup scaring me shitless because of brake fade.

As for unsprung weight, I can't really comment but how can ally bells, rotors & 4 pots weigh the same as std setup :? I can safely say that my wilwoods are about half the weight of my std calipers, but I don't really know enough about the rest to comment any further

MAXI - I know what you're saying about how biased the articles are towards the stop-tech gear :lol: I was able to look past that & learn quite a few new & interesting things that will make future my braking upgrade descisions much more informed & worthwhile :)

[1995clio16v]

Thats a YANK site and what do they know?

Theyre always wrong!

:o

[Matty86]

grrrrrrrrr.....summat me n bobster agree on.

me too... I feel dirty :shock:

I've also got standard shocks, can I be in your club?



Everyone asks me if i've upgraded my brakes when doing the engine swap and always look surprised when I say I haven't.

Fact is, i've never experienced fade in my 30k of valver ownership (including a few track days, training days, sprints, fair few laps of the 'ring and loads of country lane hoonage- mainly over dartmoor).

I've also always stuck up for the valver ABS system!

[2 live]

pah..........abs...and std shocks.........sorry......only cars with no driver aids/hindrances allowed lol.


youd be well impressed with a set of coils tho mate. car feels soooooooooooo much more planted. rob wouldnt know cos his mums cars only ever get polished by him, all his arguments and comments are based upon something hes read somewhere, not experienced