View Full Version : bike carbs kit / prima racing
http://www.primaracing.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=10568
anyone had experience with this ?
i know its a piece of piss to fit the lot on to the car but a few
things are not mentioned .
what sort of management does it run ? is it included in the kit ?
its going back wards really as there carbs not throttle bodies
wont need any management iirc..
thats the reason i am asking ,i want to figure out the difference
in operation between these and throttle bodies :roll:
:D 8)
Ant-Williams
26-02-2009, 17:29
Carbs are opened by the throttle cable and fueled in relation to the throttle position afaik hence the 2 fuel regs its all mechanical and much simpler than throttle bodies but cannot be setup as accurately as the fuelling is not controlled electronically via a map. So i dont think it will need management to run them. They dont get as good gains as bodies either i believe.
I may be wrong and someone please correct me if i am, but from what i have picked from talking to people this is how i understand the differences.
Ant
carbs can only ever be set up in a linear responce to fueling meaning you usually get very bad idle sometimes part throttle flat spots etc..
which can be ironed out with bodies but not carbs..
volymmannen
26-02-2009, 19:53
carbs are from stonehenge why use them??? better mpg and power from ITB“s
white16valver
26-02-2009, 22:44
You'd probably get massive flames on the overrun with a decat though ;) :twisted: :D
rob-legend
27-02-2009, 00:00
You'd probably get massive flames on the overrun with a decat though ;) :twisted: :D
hahaha yeaah dooo ittt :twisted:
Bog brothers up north are the ones to talk about bike carbs. An yes some can be ecu.d
Laine_16v
27-02-2009, 13:27
You would need an ignition only ECu for bike carbs.
i am not thinking of using any damm bike carbs !!!
i just wanted to learn how much will it take to get this 800 quid running
as they say they can fit them ready to drive away for an
extra 500quid + vat .
i allready got a set of bike throttle bodies that i am looking in to
fitting on a standard f7p :P
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/renaultparts/S8003806.jpg
schakal, this is exactly what i have been looking into lately. For the sake of getting a manifold made up you can use a good set of bike throttle bodies.
Only problem i see is that you would need to have some decent management to run them as i doubt they would work on a standard clio ecu even if it was chipped? How would the idle work without an iscv??
Be worth buying for the manifold ;)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Clio-Williams-1-8-16v-R6-Throttle-Bodies-Manifold_W0QQitemZ180332302229QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item18033230 2229&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1689%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
Be worth buying for the manifold ;)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Clio-Williams-1-8-16v-R6-Throttle-Bodies-Manifold_W0QQitemZ180332302229QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item18033230 2229&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1689%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
FAIL !!!!
manifold costs only 175 from bogg brothers made to suit your application .
having said that ,its not that difficult to have one made out of
s/s in a local friendly s/s zorst shop .
i think the main problem is determining the length of the pipes from the manifold as apparently wrong lengths can cause running problems
:?
also why has he got a dead ended stub between ports 2 and 3 ??? :roll:
http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/35/d3/56ae_1.JPG
looks like a mount for a support from the block.
If your running throttle bodies, you'll need aftermarket managment.
I'd look at going elsewhere, ive not been impressed from what ive seen from Bogg Bro's,,,
stan , do you know of anyone local that can weld aluminium mate ?
let me tickle you ??? :P :P :P
TALK TO ME !!!! :D :D
broken willy
27-02-2009, 22:27
imo for the cost and power increase its well worth doing. pound for pound theres not many mods where you can pick up as much power. obviously you will get more from throttle bodies but they cost 3times as much! im prob gonna run carbs myself. my only concern is how to get it through the mot :?
Schakal I will try an dig out a mag ive got that tells you what an how torun an fit a set of these including the manifold etc ........ye or am i too late ?
regards col
Schakal I will try an dig out a mag ive got that tells you what an how torun an fit a set of these including the manifold etc ........ye or am i too late ?
regards col
never too late for the trumpets mate :D
please do dig it out :P :P
white16valver
04-03-2009, 20:31
imo for the cost and power increase its well worth doing. pound for pound theres not many mods where you can pick up as much power. obviously you will get more from throttle bodies but they cost 3times as much! im prob gonna run carbs myself. my only concern is how to get it through the mot :?
I think my other concern is petrol consumption :shock: LoL :lol:
rob-legend
04-03-2009, 22:33
someone do this, so i can price it up :P
also would you need to run a smaller rad? or are the trumpets short enough to sit behind the rad?
sideways danny
05-03-2009, 01:24
you do need a short rad on a mk1, it's tight under there. Lose the slam panel too
broken willy
05-03-2009, 18:23
imo for the cost and power increase its well worth doing. pound for pound theres not many mods where you can pick up as much power. obviously you will get more from throttle bodies but they cost 3times as much! im prob gonna run carbs myself. my only concern is how to get it through the mot :?
I think my other concern is petrol consumption :shock: LoL :lol:
befriend someone with a company fuel card, or u can spend on mine for a small fee :wink:
i spoke to prima and boggs bros today, the bike carb setup uses the standard ecu to control the ignition. the setup seems very easy to put together. its just a case of fitting a fuel reg and replacing the standard manifold and injectors with the carbs. mot shouldnt be an issue either!
someone on here done the conversion and it yeilded shit results, but i think he had problems with stuff..
it all makes sense now .
fuel will always be there waiting to be sucked by the engine .
all leccy stuff on the standard plenum , the injectors and icv will be
ditched .
info from lambda + cts wil be useless but wont cause any
problems to the running .
sounds cheap enough to get a set
of carbs on ebay and DIY the lot . pretty easy to make a manifold
from steel if you have a good welder .
than need to find someone good with carbs to set them up nicely 8)
what scares me is the fact that carbs are a bit temprimental
in cold or too hot weather :? which is not what you want
on a daily driver .
Right young man ive found 2 mags that deal with carb fitting ,servicing etc.
one other thing they reckon they are not tempremental in any way!(they say)
have you a fax........or do you want me to photocopy an post......its your deal.
pm or reply regards col
Right young man ive found 2 mags that deal with carb fitting ,servicing etc.
one other thing they reckon they are not tempremental in any way!(they say)
have you a fax........or do you want me to photocopy an post......its your deal.
pm or reply regards col
pm incoming :D :D 8)
rob-legend
05-03-2009, 22:48
i wanna see if this can be done cheaply and effectively, coz i fancy some of this action :wink:
only if it works well though :oops:
someone on here done the conversion and it yeilded s**t results, but i think he had problems with stuff..
'cos he kept the std rad. not only is that going to up the intake temp, but you physically cant get a desired intake length...this WILL kill power.
For the record Bogg Bro's have never done one on a std ecu, so its a bit suck it an see. IMO it will make for a messy installation even if it runs right. Best bet would be to nbuy an ignition only ecu. For a paltry £300, it will allow for better calibration/more power, and look alot neater.
This aside, I still think you'd be better of spending a couple hundred more and getting an EFI ecu and fitting bike ITB's. The cost difference between bike CARBS and bike ITB's would be say £300....worth it imo for the more refined engine control.
Thats it Rob cover your bases :lol: just balance yourself on the fence :wink:
rob-legend
05-03-2009, 23:20
damn straight :wink:
Ive been toying with this idea for years, believe with bike bodies you can just set an idle speed like you would with normal carbs, (Idle Screw)
Altiss Engineering will make a manifold.. chap next to me at work has a tig and likes home jobs :D might have to invest in a set soon, Question is, Tuned 1.8 or 2.0 :P
broken willy
06-03-2009, 00:48
someone on here done the conversion and it yeilded s**t results, but i think he had problems with stuff..
'cos he kept the std rad. not only is that going to up the intake temp, but you physically cant get a desired intake length...this WILL kill power.
For the record Bogg Bro's have never done one on a std ecu, so its a bit suck it an see. IMO it will make for a messy installation even if it runs right. Best bet would be to nbuy an ignition only ecu. For a paltry £300, it will allow for better calibration/more power, and look alot neater.
This aside, I still think you'd be better of spending a couple hundred more and getting an EFI ecu and fitting bike ITB's. The cost difference between bike CARBS and bike ITB's would be say £300....worth it imo for the more refined engine control.
bogg bro's say they have done quite few and its worked well, if set up right theres no reason why it shouldnt. for me im just looking for cheap power for tracking as it isnt my daily drive, if it was i prob wouldnt consider using this option. if it looks messy(to some :wink: ) and restricts 3.8bhp im not fussed, the extra £300 would pay for a couple of trackdays!
someone on here done the conversion and it yeilded s**t results, but i think he had problems with stuff..
'cos he kept the std rad. not only is that going to up the intake temp, but you physically cant get a desired intake length...this WILL kill power.
For the record Bogg Bro's have never done one on a std ecu, so its a bit suck it an see. IMO it will make for a messy installation even if it runs right. Best bet would be to nbuy an ignition only ecu. For a paltry £300, it will allow for better calibration/more power, and look alot neater.
This aside, I still think you'd be better of spending a couple hundred more and getting an EFI ecu and fitting bike ITB's. The cost difference between bike CARBS and bike ITB's would be say £300....worth it imo for the more refined engine control.
what EFI ECU would you recommend Stan, when using Bike Throttle bodies as opposed to carbs bearing in mind that the dicussion is based on spending as little as possible for reasonable gains
http://www.totalvauxhall.co.uk/resources/totalvauxhall/TOV64.tech60697.pdf
:P :P :P
http://www.totalvauxhall.co.uk/resources/totalvauxhall/TOV64.tech60697.pdf
:P :P :P
love it!!!
:P
broken willy
06-03-2009, 20:40
:goodposting:
rob-legend
06-03-2009, 22:26
8)
Craig what intake length would be best?
bogg bro's say they have done quite few and its worked well, if set up right theres no reason why it shouldnt. for me im just looking for cheap power for tracking as it isnt my daily drive, if it was i prob wouldnt consider using this option. if it looks messy(to some :wink: ) and restricts 3.8bhp im not fussed, the extra £300 would pay for a couple of trackdays!
Really...they must have been busy in the last 5 months since i spoke to Steve there about it.
Where are they? Ive not seen any...have you? surely out of this "quite a few" there would be at least one on the forum.
Midge--depends on the cams, but 350mm seems to be a figure they like.
someone on here done the conversion and it yeilded s**t results, but i think he had problems with stuff..
'cos he kept the std rad. not only is that going to up the intake temp, but you physically cant get a desired intake length...this WILL kill power.
For the record Bogg Bro's have never done one on a std ecu, so its a bit suck it an see. IMO it will make for a messy installation even if it runs right. Best bet would be to nbuy an ignition only ecu. For a paltry £300, it will allow for better calibration/more power, and look alot neater.
This aside, I still think you'd be better of spending a couple hundred more and getting an EFI ecu and fitting bike ITB's. The cost difference between bike CARBS and bike ITB's would be say £300....worth it imo for the more refined engine control.
what EFI ECU would you recommend Stan, when using Bike Throttle bodies as opposed to carbs bearing in mind that the dicussion is based on spending as little as possible for reasonable gains
I use Emerald quite a bit, but im currently talking to another leading manufacturer, who is going to be configuring their ecu;s to accept the renault 16v/williams flywheel pattern.
These are £650.
An ignition only ecu is about £300.
Thing is, you have to consider set-up/calibration costs. An EFI ecu will cost you say £350 to have mapped. A carb set-up may cost you £300 to be set-up on the rollers (and im not including any igniution mapping in that really), but I can pretty much guarantee you will be back on the rollers with carbs 2/3/4 times....trying to cure flat spots and hessitations.
The "cheapness" isnt all about the initial parts out-lay...
Liking the Key words Few and worked "not so" well.... :D Bike Itbs setup right is the way forward, Carbs are alright on an Xr2 or 1600E, Ford Pop where Virtually any modification is going to make a gain, But modern engines which need decent fueling and Ignition setup's otherwise your just wasting money
I wouldnt underestimate bike carbs guys ive spoke with guys who have em say they are sharp an responsive with no flat spots an good economy if driven (normally) .
The only thing they say is the throttle needs altering ,due to very shortmovement on a bike an a graduall movement on a foot throttle.
Ive said my piece now i`ll retire gracefully to my fox hole an wait for the flack :)
Thing is with Carbs they have one downside, Jets, whereas an injection system will have a hopefully perfect amount of fuel and air mix for the current rpm and throttle position, Even carb bikes are being phased out, dont think theres many production bikes coming out now with carbs, with the exception of motorcross bikes where i guess weight is an issue with running efi
I wouldnt underestimate bike carbs guys ive spoke with guys who have em say they are sharp an responsive with no flat spots an good economy if driven (normally) .
The only thing they say is the throttle needs altering ,due to very shortmovement on a bike an a graduall movement on a foot throttle.
Ive said my piece now i`ll retire gracefully to my fox hole an wait for the flack :)
Thats true enough, but my point is really, that takes quite a bit of setting up ona completely different application than waht they were intended for. This=money...more than simply mapping an ecu for itb's...and i would happily put money on it that the larger initial outlay of using itb's would be off-set by the cost of more set-up time required with carbs.
Each to his own and all that, i personally dont see the sense in using older (not as refined) technology for the sake of an extra couple of hundred £ on parts.
People concentrate too much on cheap cheap cheap....it rarely works out as cheap as portrayed by the time the job is complete.
I do agree in what you say Stan, and ihave seen throttle body systems on the internet under a thousand pound all in.
But there are those of us who look at circuit boards an faint!........I like the spanner an handgrenade approach :oops: :)
broken willy
07-03-2009, 21:24
bogg bro's say they have done quite few and its worked well, if set up right theres no reason why it shouldnt. for me im just looking for cheap power for tracking as it isnt my daily drive, if it was i prob wouldnt consider using this option. if it looks messy(to some :wink: ) and restricts 3.8bhp im not fussed, the extra £300 would pay for a couple of trackdays!
Really...they must have been busy in the last 5 months since i spoke to Steve there about it.
Where are they? Ive not seen any...have you? surely out of this "quite a few" there would be at least one on the forum.
im just quoting what i was told! no i havent seen any, but there will be 1 soon :twisted:
issue for me is to get from bike carbs to bike itb you need management, inductive pick and prob a different flywheel, thats the best part of another £700 and thats before mapping. ive got a complete bike carb kit ready to bolt on, delivered to my door for under £600 and a rolling road set up is gonna cost me £80. if that gives me an extra 10-15bhp and more torque id say its money well spent
number1.. perfect air/fuel ratio will give you optimum power results but close to perfect will still give you a good increase. the reasons carbs were phased out was fuel economy could be improved, not enviormentally friendly and maintainance. when running a second car to abuse around a track or down a strip who thinks about any of those?
Even with carbs, you would want the OE ecu mapped to alter the ignition curve..
For £80 im guessing they wont do this.
Are you fitting a shorter rad mate?
broken willy
08-03-2009, 00:36
na £80 covers ajusting and rejetting. im currently running a remappable ecu chip from chipwizards, the ignition advance has been ajusted to suit headwork, s/s manfold, piper cams and verniers. i think i recall wayne mentioned he advanced it as far as possible on the standard ecu. it currently peaks at 7100rpm
hopefully will be running a shorter rad, i need to find something suitable first! im also looking to get some longer trumpets engineered. the current total intake lengh is 250mm
it maybe mapped for those modifications, but obviously changing the intake will change the VE versus engine speed curve,,,,so ign advance requirments will be different.
I would 100% fit a shorter rad, and get that intake length up.
broken willy
08-03-2009, 01:01
thats a good point. im going to try it with the current map tho and see how i do, i can always have it ajusted after if needed. do you supply longer trumpets for bike carbs/bodies?
i dont mate...
the best bet would be to get the manfiold made longer..
you have pm also
still i can't see why as bike bodies are as cheap as bike carbs..
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.