Best induction kit for Williams?

[paulous2k]

Apologies if this has been posted before....

Just sold my Cup and got myself a Williams (for the 2nd time in my life, no.161 this time, if anyone is a previous owner!) anyway... I want to stick an induction kit on it. On my last Williams I used a Green induction kit which sounded awesome, but I'm wondering what is the best kit available now???

I want a nice sound with a bit of extra power.

Any advice? I'm thinking about the K-Tec viper.

[Swervin_Mervin]

None. The standard airbox is the best setup on these cars. Fit an ITG panel filter in the standard airbox and that's as good as it gets.

[KingStromba]

You have three choices:

Fit an IK and get an nice sound but lose power (especially in summer)

Keep the standard airbox and fit a cotton / foam filter and gain nothing

Pay £200 + for a aftermarket rally IK (as fitted to the Maxi / group A cars) or relocated IK (Hillpower) and get a great sound and gain power

[Swervin_Mervin]

You have three choices:

Fit an IK and get an nice sound but lose power (especially in summer)

Keep the standard airbox and fit a cotton / foam filter and gain nothing You know this as fact do you?

Pay £200 + for a aftermarket rally IK (as fitted to the Maxi / group A cars) or relocated IK (Hillpower) and get a great sound and gain power And presumably there's independent proof that this kit increases power yes?

[KingStromba]

You have three choices:

Fit an IK and get an nice sound but lose power (especially in summer)

Keep the standard airbox and fit a cotton / foam filter and gain nothing You know this as fact do you? Lets face it a green filter element will do virtually nothing for performance.Unless you have proof otherwise, in which case id be interested to see.

Pay £200 + for a aftermarket rally IK (as fitted to the Maxi / group A cars) or relocated IK (Hillpower) and get a great sound and gain power And presumably there's independent proof that this kit increases power yes? Well as the Hillpower IK is a pretty good copy of the group A IK as used by Renault Sport, id say there were some independent tests in France that show that this setup is the best.

[Swervin_Mervin]

So you have no independent proof of either then?

Thought you were against people making un-proven claims?

[KingStromba]

So you have no independent proof of either then?

Thought you were against people making un-proven claims?

Nick Hill has done his own RR work, so not independent, but still valid tests. I believe that Nick Reed also did some pressure / temp tests on best place to have induction feeds on his car. But you will have to ask Lunner for those details. As for the Renaut sport technical manual i have infront of me open on the induction page for the group A Clio Williams....well, i think ill keep that to myself :D


Have a nice day.

[Swervin_Mervin]

So no independent tests then. Especially concerning the standard airbox setup, which seemed good enough for all competition clios bar the Maxi.

[KingStromba]

So no independent tests then. Especially concerning the standard airbox setup, which seemed good enough for all competition clios bar the Maxi.

Group A Clio Williams, and Group A and N Clio 16S DID NOT run standard road airboxes. Or at least the factory cars didnt.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Someone told me they did. Lying bast's. :P

A foam filter should give some gains, simply down to it allowing a higher flow rate.

[KingStromba]

Yeah i agree, its a small improvement over the paper filter and for the sake of 30 quid you might as well. Dont know if power goes up, but you dont need to change it so much which is a bonus.

[paulous2k]

Anyone here using the Nick Hill kit??? It looks impressive , but is it?? And how hard is it to fit?

[KingStromba]

Robbie B uses it. Its very loud. I have no proof it works other than what Nick has told me. He has fitted a number of these kits now.

It means cutting a hole in the bulk head.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Expensive waste of time IMO.

[KingStromba]

Cool 8)

[big hp]

I spoke to nick Hill about the relocation kit a while ago when I was thinking about a 2.0 for my valver. He said that it reduced the air being drawn into the filter by approx 32deg IIRC. Someone correct me if i'm wrong though.

Must do something, although I think youd be hard pressed to beat the standard airbox with a element IMHO.

[clean16v]

best kit IMO is panle filter in original airbox, its tried and tested with all the fastes MK1's so if its performance yo uwant then this is it. A lot of people have been dissapointed with the Viper and HP's relocation kit looks good but i couldn't justify spending that much on a breathing mod when panel filters are available for £30. Either way gains are not massive, but its needed for future mods like cams, re-map etc.
Go for the panle filter!

[Winston]

Airbox and panel filter

or

Relocation Induction kit (Worth it just for the noise lol)

[Lunner]

Nick read did pressure tests IIRC on the front end of his car.

The lower bumper was found to be the best hihg pressure area(high pressure being best location for an induction kit), as a result his is located down inside the front bumper, behind the front fog light

[Swervin_Mervin]

Well that would be where I'd put one if I had a few hundred notes to spare on fabricating one.

Not really surprising that the front of the car is subject to the highest pressure loads. I don't understand the logic behind the relocation kit, other than it providing cooler air. Surely some ram effect is lost, unless there's some sort of odd vortex occurring at the base of the 'screen.

[Lunner]

LOL @ few hndred notes, some dual layer solocone hose is all you need, from the TB down to behind the front splash guard.

And yes u've never been able to work out the logic behind the hillpower relocation kit ewither, i too wuld have thought that where the weasher bottle is is a low pressure area

[Winston]

My induction was made with spare part I had lying around lol

Lunner how much for 70mm pipe about 1metre long?

[KingStromba]

LOL, lets keep this going. This is good shit. High pressure high schmessure

[Swervin_Mervin]

Well, offer your own technical reasons as to the theory behind the relocation kit.

[Lunner]

My induction was made with spare part I had lying around lol

Lunner how much for 70mm pipe about 1metre long?

IIRC it was £30 for a length, how does that sound?

[Swervin_Mervin]

My induction was made with spare part I had lying around lol

Lunner how much for 70mm pipe about 1metre long?

IIRC it was £30 for a length, how does that sound?

That sounds very dodgy to me! :shock:

[KingStromba]

Unless we know how the following parameters affect air intake who is any of us to make performance suggestions?

Inlet manifold temp
Filter type
Throttle body to filter length
Throttle body to filter diameter
Pressure of air around IK
Filter size
Air temp around filter
Conductivity of IK material

I wouls suggest that the only groups of people that have tested this on the Clio 1, would be Renault Sport and dedicated race teams.

Anything we say is just speculation. Personally i would just copy what Renault Sport did as they are likely to know best.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I'm basing my logic on that used by Noble, and my engineering knowledge.

I predict there will be a low pressure spot at the base of the 'screen. This would actually try to suck air out of a relocation kit. This is why I'd like to know how they work.

I'm not saying they don't, but Renault might have had reasons other than performance ones to locate the kit there.

[northy]

they did a air scoop ontop of the rad, and feed through the bonnet...any pictures from your group a manual rob ?

[Winston]

Group A manual ....he kept that quite lol

Get it scanned :wink:

[Lunner]

My induction was made with spare part I had lying around lol

Lunner how much for 70mm pipe about 1metre long?

IIRC it was £30 for a length, how does that sound?

That sounds very dodgy to me! :shock:

LOL, good quality styuff, will double check on the price, and see what i can do for you guys

[Lunner]

Just been on the phone yo my supplier, and i can do them out at £20, mininum

[Lunner]

Just been on the phone yo my supplier, and i can do them out at £20, mininum

£20 plus postage of about a fiver, or just over

[Winston]

Sweeet.....nice one Lunner, I'll be in touch

[Swervin_Mervin]

I won't be requiring any. Yet. I'm looking at maybe doing mods to the VTS assembly if steph wishes so I'd get some then.

[Lunner]

Sweeet.....nice one Lunner, I'll be in touch

Woudl also be worth getting some heat shielding for the trunking, keep those inlet temps down even lower :)

[2 live]

personally id stick with the std air box, with a free-er flowing filter.

if ind kits are your bag, id def go with the filter tucked up behind the shitgaurds behind the bumper

personally id like to know the theory behind cutting a fukkin huge hole in the bulkhead to fit the filter where the washer bottle should be. surely this is just a sales gimmick/aesthetic thing rather than a performance mod

[Lunner]

personally id stick with the std air box, with a free-er flowing filter.

if ind kits are your bag, id def go with the filter tucked up behind the shitgaurds behind the bumper

personally id like to know the theory behind cutting a fukkin huge hole in the bulkhead to fit the filter where the washer bottle should be. surely this is just a sales gimmick/aesthetic thing rather than a performance mod

Well teh theory is that behind the bulkhead it gets lots of cold air, but i can't see that there is going to be a massive amount of high pressure there.

Does anyone have, or have access to a pressure sensor?

Would be interestng to get some readings

[u33db]

And yes u've never been able to work out the logic behind the hillpower relocation kit ewither, i too wuld have thought that where the weasher bottle is is a low pressure area

Toward the washer bottle end of the bonnet is actually a high-pressure area as far as i've found/concerned. I once had the bonnet pop open at 80mph+ - you would expect the air force going over the bonnet would lock it down but was riding a good 2-3inches above the catch at these speeds...obviously there wasn't any midgets pushing it up so must have been air pressure in that area.

As someone mentioned, locating the IK to the scuttle reduces the heat soak on the cone...i'd still expect some through the stainless pipe that HP uses to route the air to the TB but i'd doubt it's worse than the std airbox despite this....even though it's thought top be the best.

IMO

[Swervin_Mervin]

If the bonnet wasn't pushed down, that means it's a low pressure area. Ergo sucks up, not pushes down. This would be caused by the angle between the screen and bonnet.

It may create and eddy there though which would give still air under neutral pressure.

[Lunner]

LOL, the bonnet was pushed up becasue all the air in the egine bay that was rusdhing in through the rad had somewhere to go, ie out the bonnet, pushing it upwards

[clean16v]

Pressure? Whats pressure got to do with anything? Its relocated due to heat!

[Lunner]

Yes but for an induction kit to work well it needs to be relocated to a high pressure area, if its a low pressure area then low pressure is efectivly tryng to suck the air out of the engine. Same reason why climbers need to breath from bottles at high altitudes,m becasue there is less air pressure, and so less oxygen

[clean16v]

It would have to be lower pressure then the cylinder on the intake stroke where a vacuum is formed to draw air in, so i dont see it sucking air out of the engine!
Higher pressure wouldn't make a difference by re-locating the IK, the engine only takes as much air as it wants, a certain volume per stroke. In theory the higher the pressure the better, but re-locating it in the engine bay for this purpose wouldn't really work, you need really high perssure to make a difference, thats why turbo's and S/C work. Your never gonna be able to build enough pressure by re-locating the filter to compress air!
Higher pressure would make a diff, but it can not be created by re-locating an IK is what i mean.

[2 live]

LOL, the bonnet was pushed up becasue all the air in the egine bay that was rusdhing in through the rad had somewhere to go, ie out the bonnet, pushing it upwards


so that would suggest that under bonnet air pressure is greater than the air pressure above the bonnet, which is where the skuttle panel mounted filter will get its air from isnt it??

so surely an under bonnet filter will be as good, if not better in terms of air flow, which comes back to heat

surely the closer the filter is to the moving(cold) air the better, so therefore the greater air pressure area should also produce the coldest air

[Lunner]

Where does most of the air that comes inot the engine bay come from? Through the radiator, so its hot.

The scuttle panal is behind the bulkhead, so hence the air pressure/temp in the engine bay doesn't effect it.

I'm not going on about higher pressure air trying to create a turbo or super charger effect, lol.

When the air pressure is hgiher it means there is more of it in a certain volume, so if you have 8 atoms of oxygen at normal pressure ina given area, then at twice normal pressure you will ahve 16 atoms of oxygen ina given area...see where i'm going?

So in an area that has half the normal pressure you are only going to have 4 oxygen atoms.

more oxygen = more power.

Theory between hot air and cold air is the same, as a gas gets hotter it expands, and is less dense, as it cools down it becomes more dense, to the point where it turns into a liquid, so thats why hot air is bad, and cold air is good, becasue cold air is denser and contains more oxygen.

Exactly the same thoery on high and low pressure, if you heat water up ina sealed container it will explode as the pressure fromt eh steam builds up, as steam is less dense than water and so occupies a larger volume

[KingStromba]

It would have to be lower pressure then the cylinder on the intake stroke where a vacuum is formed to draw air in, so i dont see it sucking air out of the engine!
Higher pressure wouldn't make a difference by re-locating the IK, the engine only takes as much air as it wants, a certain volume per stroke. In theory the higher the pressure the better, but re-locating it in the engine bay for this purpose wouldn't really work, you need really high perssure to make a difference, thats why turbo's and S/C work. Your never gonna be able to build enough pressure by re-locating the filter to compress air!
Higher pressure would make a diff, but it can not be created by re-locating an IK is what i mean.


I agree. Its a heat reason for relocation. Pressure differences are not the reason.

[2 live]

yes..but what im saying is that theres a greater possibility of it working better near the front of the engine. if u could enclose it in a box, and seperate it from the hot air of the rad, and get a cold air feed runnin into the box it would be better....oh hang on...thats a std airbox


my bad

:wink:

[KingStromba]

Park your car in a garage. Leave engine on until the fan kicks in. Turn off the engine and stand by the passenger door. Put your hand under the car. The fan blows air that is so hot you can feel it under the car halfway down the car. That is how hot the engine bay is. Relocating to a cool area is a MASSIVE advantage.

[2 live]

how hot does it run under the wing?? or inside the oe airbox??

[Lunner]

I agree that the main reason for relocating it is the heat, but if you are going to relocate it, do it properly and relocate it to a high pressure area

[KingStromba]

Tom its not a turbo charger.

[clean16v]

You say that moving form 4 atoms of oxygen to 8 is an easy thing to do. At a certain distance above sea level, atmosphere is constant. Where it flows fast or slow, makes no difference, you would have to compress air by means of a S/C or T/C for this.
I appreciate what you are saying Lunner, but in reality this is not the case, in theory its perfect.
If you blow air into a box (which is what happens in the engine a bay when the car is moving) you do not create a higher pressure in the box, the air will force itself back out through holes etc because teh pressure around it is constant. You would need a LARGE compressor type wheel and an air tight engine bay to be able to increase air pressure so much that it increases teh air density. Its much easier just to find the cool, more dense air.
Don't forget that an engine can only take a certain volume per stroke, and when its on the inlet stroke it forms a vacuum that draws in as much air as it needs and not a mm cubed more.

[KingStromba]

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=1023


Check that link Lunner if yuo want to test pressures.

[Mark_Ritchspeed]

I dont think that any ram-air affect will make much of a difference at the speeds we use our cars. My scoops are situated to push as much hot air out the way as possible.

IIRC true ram-air effect doesnt take place until speeds like 150mph+ are reached. So will have no effect on our cars.

I actually think the principles behind Nicks kit are sound, but wouldnt make much difference on mine as thats where all the hot air is pushed because the bonnets raised.

Mine will be sporting a new induction kit by Anglessey hopefully but this is almost sure to involve some bonnet cutting as well.

[Andy]

not into this cutting holes buisness


standard box with ram speed element for me :lol:

[Lunner]

That just proves my point, even at lower speeds high pressure is stillgoing to ahve some effect, i'm not saying its going to create a turbo effect :roll: , but it will give a little extra power, obvously movng it to a cool area is gonna help more, but moving it to a high pressure cool area is going to help more then movng it to a low pressure cool area

[Swervin_Mervin]

Lunner is correct. You can also increase the effect by reducing the bore of the pipework as it gets nearer to the TB.

It might not make a massive difference, but I bet the air is much cooler at the low front of the car than at the rear of the bay anyway. Not saying the relocation kit doesn't work but there would be better places to mount a serious induction kit.

[kj16v]

There are some really pointless arguements going on here.
An induction kit inches from a hot engine in a cramped engine bay will suck in hot air and lose power.
You don't need a pressure-testing-heat-sensing-dynamometering-mean-lean-fat-reducing-grilling-machine to work that out. It's called common sense :roll:

You could buy a carbon-fibre sealed super induction kit specially designed to scoop in cold air and scoop in cash for the manufacturers (-cough- Viper -cough-) but the extra 5bhp it makes at 6200rpm and 130mph won't make a damn bit of difference where it matters - PERFORMANCE!!
You could save that £200-odd and put it to some cams which will make a difference.

The End

P.S. To get more air to the standard air box, I've removed the passenger-side blanking plate in the front bumper, which leads to that pipe that 'dissapears' into the bodywork. Won't make much difference but makes me feel happy!

[2 live]

There are some really pointless arguements going on here.
An induction kit inches from a hot engine in a cramped engine bay will suck in hot air and lose power.
You don't need a pressure-testing-heat-sensing-dynamometering-mean-lean-fat-reducing-grilling-machine to work that out. It's called common sense :roll:

You could buy a carbon-fibre sealed super induction kit specially designed to scoop in cold air and scoop in cash for the manufacturers (-cough- Viper -cough-) but the extra 5bhp it makes at 6200rpm and 130mph won't make a damn bit of difference where it matters - PERFORMANCE!!
You could save that £200-odd and put it to some cams which will make a difference.





The End

P.S. To get more air to the standard air box, I've removed the passenger-side blanking plate in the front bumper, which leads to that pipe that 'dissapears' into the bodywork. Won't make much difference but makes me feel happy!




i disagree..i think the discussion on the filters is quite an apt 1.

a hot engine bay, can be seperated from the filter by means of a few things, all quite cheap too, just means time and effort to produce them to your satisfaction

a carbon fibre box would be no hassle to make really, u just need a jig/mould to set it. and the carbon......which is easy enuff to get hold of, and fairly cheap

personally id say a nomex lined carbon/kevlar air box over open filter fed from the front in original spot would be about perfect, with a good cold air feed

[Swervin_Mervin]

A bit like the noble set up. Two K&N filters (one for each bank of 3cyl) in a carbon shielded box right under the rear clamshell with a direct feed.

[bigjim]

ive got a hillpower i/k with the heat shield, the old style one and it sounds great and doesnt seem to lose any power even in the summer and defo gains in the winter.

[big hp]

ive got a hillpower i/k with the heat shield, the old style one and it sounds great and doesnt seem to lose any power even in the summer and defo gains in the winter.

If it gains in the winter it must lose in the summer :roll: :wink:

[BRUN]

well some of the fastest Mk1's have used the older style Hill Power kit, so it cant be that bad

[2 live]

well some of the fastest Mk1's have used the older style Hill Power kit, so it cant be that bad

and they are??


iirc only adis had 1.rest were std with free-er flowing filter

[Mark_Ritchspeed]

Mine is still using one and its not particularly slow.

Not for much longer though.