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Wobba
27-10-2008, 15:19
Over a week ago I fitted some coilovers to the front and their respective rear shocks. I had a hell of a time getting the torsion bar reset to a 30mm drop, and ended up with about a 50mm drop.

The ride was INCREDIBLY bouncey and harsh. Checking it at the weekend I could see the rears resting on their bumpstops. Not good, I thought, and promptly too the torsion bar out either side and managed to reset it so it should have been 15mm higher.When back on the ground the height is virtually the same and it STILL sits on the bumpstops with rear dropped about 35mm. Not right, think I.

I could easily compress the rears by hand, far easier than the old OE ones I took off. I guess these are what a mechanic would called 'Fukced shocks', right?

My lowered valver on standard OE rears felt much better than this.

Fronts seem ok, though I have not examined them yet.

16v_paddy
27-10-2008, 16:39
I'd say yeah they're fooked, doesnt take much to fcuk the rears

The cup ones I took off mine after I crashed were still rock solid but were deffo FUBAR :? the back wheels were bouncin like a bastard :shock:

Did you get them brand new? Try and get em replaced or some money back

Wobba
27-10-2008, 16:53
Did you get them brand new? Try and get em replaced or some money back

Sadly not. Off a member here. Think I will try some AVO adjustables to take their place, and if I still dont like it, go OE.

16v_paddy
27-10-2008, 17:08
^^Shame really

Try and get some DeCarbon cup shocks, I got mine from someone on here, cant remember who tho :oops:

They're the dogs danglies 8)

Winston
27-10-2008, 17:15
AVOs are shite

Factory FTW... or some low mileage off me ;)

white16valver
27-10-2008, 19:39
^^Shame really

Try and get some DeCarbon cup shocks, I got mine from someone on here, cant remember who tho :oops:

They're the dogs danglies 8)
Was it evogone?

I'm sure I remember the for sale thread... lol

16v_paddy
27-10-2008, 19:54
^^Shame really

Try and get some DeCarbon cup shocks, I got mine from someone on here, cant remember who tho :oops:

They're the dogs danglies 8)
Was it evogone?

I'm sure I remember the for sale thread... lol

Probably was, he had them on ebay, got him to finish it early :twisted: no way anyone else was gettin them :twisted:

£100 BARGAIN!! :D

2 live
27-10-2008, 20:02
^^Shame really

Try and get some DeCarbon cup shocks, I got mine from someone on here, cant remember who tho :oops:

They're the dogs danglies 8)


De Carbon were fitted as std on some williams' poss valvers too. theink they changed th KYB 93/94


could be wrong, as 0051 had KYB s but they had been replaced somewhere along the line, 0159 had De Carbon

2 live
27-10-2008, 20:04
and they had never been replaced up to putting the AVOs on.

16v_paddy
27-10-2008, 21:30
Williams's did have Decarbon rear shock but they're a different part no. to the cup ones

the cup ones also say COUPE on them

Wobba
28-10-2008, 12:54
My spare OE ones are de carbons. I'll stick them on for the time being.

schakal
28-10-2008, 12:59
Over a week ago I fitted some coilovers to the front and their respective rear shocks. I had a hell of a time getting the torsion bar reset to a 30mm drop, and ended up with about a 50mm drop.

The ride was INCREDIBLY bouncey and harsh. Checking it at the weekend I could see the rears resting on their bumpstops. Not good, I thought, and promptly too the torsion bar out either side and managed to reset it so it should have been 15mm higher.When back on the ground the height is virtually the same and it STILL sits on the bumpstops with rear dropped about 35mm. Not right, think I.

I could easily compress the rears by hand, far easier than the old OE ones I took off. I guess these are what a mechanic would called 'Fukced shocks', right?

My lowered valver on standard OE rears felt much better than this.

Fronts seem ok, though I have not examined them yet.

its simple to find out if they are fooked or not .
do they keep bouncing when you press one of the rear sides
or does it settle back to position ??

volymmannen
29-10-2008, 12:33
Over a week ago I fitted some coilovers to the front and their respective rear shocks. I had a hell of a time getting the torsion bar reset to a 30mm drop, and ended up with about a 50mm drop.

The ride was INCREDIBLY bouncey and harsh. Checking it at the weekend I could see the rears resting on their bumpstops. Not good, I thought, and promptly too the torsion bar out either side and managed to reset it so it should have been 15mm higher.When back on the ground the height is virtually the same and it STILL sits on the bumpstops with rear dropped about 35mm. Not right, think I.

I could easily compress the rears by hand, far easier than the old OE ones I took off. I guess these are what a mechanic would called 'Fukced shocks', right?

My lowered valver on standard OE rears felt much better than this.

Fronts seem ok, though I have not examined them yet.

A 50mm drop would be ok without sitting on the bumpstops,i want to know how the car can have the same height after you raised the car 15mm??
The shocks have nothing to do with the height of the car.

there must be something wrong with the lowering or the rearaxle..
i have lowerd lots of torsionbars and i think it is very easy, the cars are so light so i usually lower the car to the height i want and then slide the torsionbars in where they fit, the torsionbar have different splines inside and outside so a 5mm drop could be a half turn and 50mm 1 splines on the outside (remove both torsionbars at the same time then lower the car)
good luck

Wobba
29-10-2008, 14:39
Cheers, but I know I have not done anything wrong with lowering, I have done it before and kept all my measurements incase of wanting to return to OE.

I will be replacing the shocks with the old ones this weekend and see what happens.

16v_paddy
29-10-2008, 20:15
A 50mm drop would be ok without sitting on the bumpstops,i want to know how the car can have the same height after you raised the car 15mm??
The shocks have nothing to do with the height of the car.

there must be something wrong with the lowering or the rearaxle..
i have lowerd lots of torsionbars and i think it is very easy, the cars are so light so i usually lower the car to the height i want and then slide the torsionbars in where they fit, the torsionbar have different splines inside and outside so a 5mm drop could be a half turn and 50mm 1 splines on the outside (remove both torsionbars at the same time then lower the car)
good luck

Not entirely correct, when my rears were fooked, one was worse than the other, you could tell as one side was lower than the other :shock:

The shocks do play a part in how low & level it sits at the back

volymmannen
30-10-2008, 16:28
A 50mm drop would be ok without sitting on the bumpstops,i want to know how the car can have the same height after you raised the car 15mm??
The shocks have nothing to do with the height of the car.

there must be something wrong with the lowering or the rearaxle..
i have lowerd lots of torsionbars and i think it is very easy, the cars are so light so i usually lower the car to the height i want and then slide the torsionbars in where they fit, the torsionbar have different splines inside and outside so a 5mm drop could be a half turn and 50mm 1 splines on the outside (remove both torsionbars at the same time then lower the car)
good luck

Not entirely correct, when my rears were fooked, one was worse than the other, you could tell as one side was lower than the other :shock:

The shocks do play a part in how low & level it sits at the back

The lifting force on a compressed shockabsorber cant be big, the shockabsorber is almost more horisontal than vertical, i would say that it more horisontal on a lowerd car, then the gaspressure in the shockabsorber cant have much influence on the cars ridehight.
no preesure and full pressure could be noticable..but not more than few mm,depends how heavy the rear is on the car..

16v_paddy
30-10-2008, 19:30
^^ But surely a dead shock is going to be compressed more, making the car sit lower, as there would be less resistance :?

If for example the rear shocks were taken off and the car was left to settle surely it will sit a lot lower than it did before? :?

eternalife
30-10-2008, 20:50
^^ But surely a dead shock is going to be compressed more, making the car sit lower, as there would be less resistance :?

If for example the rear shocks were taken off and the car was left to settle surely it will sit a lot lower than it did before? :?

Leaky shock?
Or one that is old and no longer provides the characteristics of ''absorbing shock''?

Questions require clarification inregards to classification of a 'dead shock' .

16v_paddy
30-10-2008, 20:58
Sort of both :?

I'm just generalising and being clear as mud :roll: :lol: from when my rear shocks were fooked

I had a little off road excursion :oops: I don't know exactly what was wrong with mine, but there was no doubt they were fcuked :?

The back wheels were bouncing around like a bastard and it sat wonky at the back, 1 side lower than the other

I had something similar on a m8s valver a few years ago, his rear shocks were seriously fcuked with no fluid in them at all :shock: we put new shocks on & it was a lot higher at the back than it was before

arj256
30-10-2008, 21:32
There dead, hold a funeral and buy some new ones :lol:

Suspension is like any thing on a car. Its a system.
If one part of the system fails its going to effect/strain the next related part.
So the shocks are not dampening the forces, its going to allow the spring to complete more of its arc of travel.
Therefore giving a low uncomfortable ride.

Cheap shocks = cheap performance.

Fitting the Oe shocks again may sound a good idea but the rebound and damping will be setup for a different height.
So your just compromising.

Much like lowering the rear without uprating its spring rating.

16v_paddy
30-10-2008, 21:53
:goodposting:

LEIGH-ANNE
30-10-2008, 23:07
:goodposting: :imwithstupidup:

16v_paddy
30-10-2008, 23:36
:roll: is one trying to take the p1ss!? :lol:

eternalife
31-10-2008, 00:14
As long as the spring rate and damping rate remaing the same - it should not be any worse at a lower ride height (unless at its extremes of travel where obviously the system is restricted).

For a simple example of the rear of a clio:

Case 1 (OEM): Spring Rate X, damping rate Y - Travel of system 100mm to 20mm.
Case 2 (Lowered): Spring Rate X, damping rate Y - Travel of system 50mm to 20mm.

Case 1 still accounts for the cases in Case 2
Case 2 simply has less travel available than Case 1...

If the Spring rate and the damping rate (damping rate I believe to be linear and not 'progressive' for the rear of a clio) does not change the 'matching' of (or coherent nature) of the suspension system should not change.

eternalife
31-10-2008, 00:27
Example of above....from a top manufacturer.
H&R Coilovers who utilise Bilstein dampers - Only height adjustable.

Suspension system properties remain constant despite changes in height (relatively)

white16valver
31-10-2008, 13:34
As long as the spring rate and damping rate remaing the same - it should not be any worse at a lower ride height (unless at its extremes of travel where obviously the system is restricted).

For a simple example of the rear of a clio:

Case 1 (OEM): Spring Rate X, damping rate Y - Travel of system 100mm to 20mm.
Case 2 (Lowered): Spring Rate X, damping rate Y - Travel of system 50mm to 20mm.

Case 1 still accounts for the cases in Case 2
Case 2 simply has less travel available than Case 1...

If the Spring rate and the damping rate (damping rate I believe to be linear and not 'progressive' for the rear of a clio) does not change the 'matching' of (or coherent nature) of the suspension system should not change.
I'm with your logic on this one :)

Wobba
31-10-2008, 14:13
My front suspension seems fine, if a bit harsher. Its the rears that bounces all over the place and sit on their bumpstops.

I am going to fit the old ones tomorrow, rain or shine, at the same height and see what happens, if they too sit on their bumpstops then it is too low, but tbh it does not look it! I have seen much lower cars.

eternalife
31-10-2008, 17:52
My front suspension seems fine, if a bit harsher. Its the rears that bounces all over the place and sit on their bumpstops.

I am going to fit the old ones tomorrow, rain or shine, at the same height and see what happens, if they too sit on their bumpstops then it is too low, but tbh it does not look it! I have seen much lower cars.

Bouncing up and down is a sign of a failed shock and a resultant of 'spring' only in operation.
i.e. lack of damping.

schakal
31-10-2008, 18:14
My front suspension seems fine, if a bit harsher. Its the rears that bounces all over the place and sit on their bumpstops.

I am going to fit the old ones tomorrow, rain or shine, at the same height and see what happens, if they too sit on their bumpstops then it is too low, but tbh it does not look it! I have seen much lower cars.

Bouncing up and down is a sign of a failed shock and a resultant of 'spring' only in operation.
i.e. lack of damping.

exactly ,which is what i allready covered at the very
beginning of this thread . some people just dont read :headbutt: :headbutt:




its simple to find out if they are fooked or not .
do they keep bouncing when you press one of the rear sides
or does it settle back to position ??

Wobba
01-11-2008, 13:39
One ****ed shock absorber, both the same. I compressed this one easily by hand to the bumpstop, and as you can see, its not pushed back into shape:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/Williams%20217/DSC009241.jpg

It is not fun having only today to replace these in the pouring freezing rain and one of my wheel lock bolts breaking as well...

16v_paddy
01-11-2008, 19:00
I'd call that a dead shock :lol:

Wobba
02-11-2008, 00:15
This is two ****ed shocks:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w102/barneywobba/Williams%20217/DSC00925.jpg

Wobba
04-11-2008, 22:43
Well, the old OE shocks are on the rear and the transformation is amazing. Sure, the front feels a little floaty, with the matching coilover set of the duff rears, I'll investigate them later to see if they are also ****ed shocks at some other stage.

I also fitted my welded steering column, which Arj256 kindly welded for me :) It's strange, the old column when I took it off had no obvious play at all, but with the welded column the steering is ultra responsive...

Question is do I return to OE all rouns shocks and height or not. At mo I cant due to having had a very expensive couple of months. I also quite like the harsher ride as I am a masochist, so maybe I will lower the front a bit and see how it copes...

white16valver
06-11-2008, 14:11
Well done for getting them changed in the bad weather!

You're a harder man than I :oops: lol

eternalife
06-11-2008, 15:00
Well done for getting them changed in the bad weather!

You're a harder man than I :oops: lol

He is used to it now with all his clio shenanigans.
TBF, changing rear shocks is a walk in the park for him now :lol:

white16valver
06-11-2008, 18:57
Wish I could say the same - I just need to get stuck in!!

(I just wish it wasn't so cold :oops: :( )

schakal
06-11-2008, 19:34
those shocks look dead :P 8)

Wobba
07-11-2008, 15:06
lol yea thanks lads.

They are quite dead, the noises I got whilst driving them was really bad, and the design of them was not that good. The end bolt bits were not happy as the rubber washers did not extend to the body of the car and just had a steel lip tube instead. I found they had caused the bolts to become loose as they forced the bolts to undo....scarey!

New rear tyres going on this Saturday. New F1's. gonna get tracking done at same time and prior to that lower the front a little to allow the rear to be a bit higher than the front for better feel etc.

white16valver
07-11-2008, 17:52
185/55s I hope ;) lol

LEIGH-ANNE
07-11-2008, 17:59
I prefer a harsher ride too dan. Be good to drive each others cars again to see the difference...

Wobba
07-11-2008, 18:15
I prefer a harsher ride too dan. Be good to drive each others cars again to see the difference...

Sure, I warn you though, it can get pretty rough.

Wobba
07-11-2008, 18:15
185/55s I hope ;) lol

hehe, not a chance, 195/50's :)

LEIGH-ANNE
08-11-2008, 00:18
I like it rough!

Wobba
08-11-2008, 10:38
I like it rough!

I know ;) I may let you drive my car a bit sometime. It should be an interesting ride as it's slightly modofied to normal and has all new parts and welded steering column. The steering is very tight now and it's very stiff :)

white16valver
10-11-2008, 13:42
Enough with all this talk of tightness and stiffness :P lol