brakes need upgrading, your advice please

[Tuccy]

Hello again lol :?

i have a 95 willy 3 loving the car, however ive had nothing but probs with brakes, finally got the issues sorted to find the car goes like stink, and doesnt stop that well, just feel the car is too quick for its brakes to stop it lol :?

looking for any decent ideas on how i can improve braking, ie bigger discs, callibres etc etc

please keep in mind that i havnt got a great budget, would prefer to do this with braker parts from the brakers/scrap yard etc on the cheap,
(im not being cheap, just dont have much cash to throw around at the mo)

ie what discs would fit the car of maby another model of car that will improve things, also are there calibres of another car that will fit????

any ideas much appreciated.... thanks in advance guys :)

[stan]

the standard brakes are perfectly capable when in proper working order

sticky calipers, old fluid, weeping pipes, worn discs/pads, all lead to reduced braking efficiency.

the best thing you can do is fit recconned calipers, new discs, and flush the old fluid out and bleed with fresh.

[Tuccy]

Thanks for the input stan much appreciated

i prob should have given more details of the car and work done :oops:

here goes

the car has had the following engine upgrades

lightened and balanced flywheel
upgraded clutch
forget pistons and conrods
lightened and rebalanced crankshaft
Have receipt for head work too, not sure what tho, it doesnt state details :shock:
remapped/chipped (limits at 7500 rpm :lol: )

im told it had cams upgraded too, but no reciept for this so im usure

basicially ive had nothing but probs with the brakes, however they seem to be functioning correctly now, just dont have enough power to stop me in a hurry (even with abs disabeled)

here is what ive done to the brakes since owning the car

brand new master cylinder
new pads all round (ferodo brand)
all calibres stripped cleaned and sliders freed up
old fluid flushed from system and completely replaced with new fluid
discs checked with a run-off guage for warp, but all ok :?
all brake pipes checked for signs of aging etc but again all ok
no leaks anywhere and im not loosing fluid

just one of those nagging feelings with my brakes, that i cant content myself with, need to do something about them :oops:

i think thats everything

thanks again :)

[stan]

well ive built a few around and over 200bhp (beyond the spec you've listed), and they've never had issues on standard brakes.

If they are working properly you really shouldnt have any problems.

[Tuccy]

ah seems my brakes are still cr@p then lol :(

i thought maby they just were not up to the job.. thanks stan :)

damn more investigating to do :evil:

[davem]

ok so without starting an argument, my valver is approx 150bhp, lightened shell so therefore requires less braking.
Now after 2 or 3 laps of oulton park on saturday i was suffering from brake fade. I have good quality pads, new discs, new calipers dot 5 fluid etc. There is nothing at fault with my brakes and they aint good enough either.
So i am in agreance with tuccy that the brakes aint good enough!
Not saying that stan is wrong, its down to how the car is driven and what the driver is comfortable with.
The brakes might be capable of stopping you from 130 mph but will they do this 10 times in a row and still feel good?
i am also looking for a decent brake upgrade so if i find something i will post it up.

[Purple]

ah seems my brakes are still cr@p then lol :(
Did not see steel-braided hoses mentioned in your list. If you don't have them already, get them installed. Gives you a more consistent (and slightly stronger) final bite over a bigger range of temperatures. But, IMHO, if you are coming over from Jap brakes which tend to be over-servoed to match their light clutches/accelerator pedals; the typical Williams brake pedal will need a harder jab to stop, that's all.

[eternalife]

When you say they arent up to scratch - what kind of symptoms do you have? lack in pedal feel? spongy pedal? non responsive brakes?

What brake fluid did you use?
I have heard/read good things about Castrol Super Response brake fluid.

Have you a bulkhead heatsheild (sits behind the exhaust manifold)?

[Scougar]

ah seems my brakes are still cr@p then lol :(
Did not see steel-braided hoses mentioned in your list. If you don't have them already, get them installed. Gives you a more consistent (and slightly stronger) final bite over a bigger range of temperatures. But, IMHO, if you are coming over from Jap brakes which tend to be over-servoed to match their light clutches/accelerator pedals; the typical Williams brake pedal will need a harder jab to stop, that's all.

Have to agree with that comment on jap cars. I found my brakes do work well (just renewed them with new discs/pads/new rear calipers) but you have to press them much harder than more modern brakes. Your pressing and it feels like it isn't stopping, just realise you have to press harder... or alternatively, sit further forward in your seat so you can get good braking effect.

Matthew

[stevie_b]

I have good quality pads, new discs, new calipers dot 5 fluid etc.

Do you really mean DOT 5 fluid? If so that is probably part of your problem. A decent DOT4 or DOT5.1 would be better.

[Tommo]

Many people on here would say 4 pots, Willwood etc. personally I'd recommend an OE size brake kit. I bought the Brembo Sport front brake kit from MSW last year, and K-Tec rear brake kit, Castrol Super Response fluid and braided lines and the brakes are fantastic now, no fade at all, razor sharp and pulls up so well when hot or cold...

[white16valver]

I'm very happy with my Yozzasport-sourced Pagid Blue pads, upgraded lines and Brembo Max discs :)

[Tuccy]

thanks for all the responces guys, i cant remember who asked what so here is answers to what i remember lol

replaced the fluid with new 5.1 stuff but after no difference in braking i convinced myself that the 5.1 might be part of the problem so flushed it all and replaced it with dot4 Deldhi lockhead if i remember correctly..

dont have braded flexi`s, however with the recommendments on here i will definatelt be getting some soon, any ideas how much they are and where i get em?

brake pedal feels ok, its not spongy, its firm and steady to press, its just i seem to have to really press my back hard into the seat and push it like hell to get and kind of decent braking power, and even then its not that great

yes i have the bulkhead heatsheild on the car and its in relatively good nick...

i will also invest in some of that castrol fluid as mentioned above...

id love to do a proper brake upgrade to the car, but every utility bill under the sun has arrived in the past few weeks and has left me pretty much broke :evil:

thats why i was looking to get bigger/better discs calibres ie 19 16v???? :? etc or whatever other parts might fit from the scrapyard..

thanks everyone :lol:

[richy]

ok so without starting an argument, my valver is approx 150bhp, lightened shell so therefore requires less braking.
Now after 2 or 3 laps of oulton park on saturday i was suffering from brake fade. I have good quality pads, new discs, new calipers dot 5 fluid etc. There is nothing at fault with my brakes and they aint good enough either.
So i am in agreance with tuccy that the brakes aint good enough!
Not saying that stan is wrong, its down to how the car is driven and what the driver is comfortable with.
The brakes might be capable of stopping you from 130 mph but will they do this 10 times in a row and still feel good?
i am also looking for a decent brake upgrade so if i find something i will post it up.

i use wilwood 4pots on my trackcar, they run on the std size discs(260mm-grp N + poly E pads) and are great on track, ive had them years with no problems, just done a full day at donington with a average constant 7-8 lap of heavy braking with no problems/fade etc at all

def worth it for a trackcar!

cant fault std brakes on the road, work perfectly fine but like you said they lasted all of 2-3 laps on track and were pretty crap all day after that!

[Swervin_Mervin]

I think it's pot luck a lot of the time. Spent a fortune on the track cars brakes getting the std setup completely refreshed. Yet the daily driver has the most riidiculously firm pedal action of any clio I've been in.

This despite the fact it's had nothing done to it AFAIK. :?

Do bear in mind though that just because you have to press hard doesn't mean they don't work. Clio brakes are a bit softer in the pedal IME. That said, get out on track and I've also found they always firm up nicely. You don't want too firm as it becomes more difficult on track to get a good level of adjustability in to you braking. I've outbraked all sorts in my track car and all it has is DS2500 pads up front.

Trouble is a lot of people think that kissing the windscreen after 2cm of pedal movement is a good thing, hence modern cars being MASSIVELY over -servoed.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I think it's pot luck a lot of the time. Spent a fortune on the track cars brakes getting the std setup completely refreshed. Yet the daily driver has the most riidiculously firm pedal action of any clio I've been in.

This despite the fact it's had nothing done to it AFAIK. :?

Do bear in mind though that just because you have to press hard doesn't mean they don't work. Clio brakes are a bit softer in the pedal IME. That said, get out on track and I've also found they always firm up nicely. You don't want too firm as it becomes more difficult on track to get a good level of adjustability in to you braking. I've outbraked all sorts in my track car (on track) and all it has is DS2500 pads up front.

Trouble is a lot of people think that kissing the windscreen after 2cm of pedal movement is a good thing, hence modern cars being MASSIVELY over -servoed.

[Tuccy]

seems ive started quite a debate here lol :oops:

[richy]

tbh the pedal on mine doesnt feel much different, and easy to control how light/heavy you want to brake, obviously just stamping on them will lock the brakes up! at donny i locked the brakes once after a very late braking moment during a cosworth killing move lol but was for a second and straight off the brakes and adjust etc

[davem]

i aint come over from a jap car i own a renault 5, another clio, and an extra van and although renaults do have good brakes the brakes on a standard valver are not up to the job if you are driving hard that was my point.
I dont want 2 cm of brake travel then be hitting the windscreen.
for the first 3 or 4 laps the brakes are great. but once they are warm they are crap stamp on the pedal as hard as you like your goin across the grass!
the problem is that the discs dont have the surface area to effectively cool quickly enough. uprated pads are a good quick fix and maybe some extra venting to help cool the brakes might help but bigger discs would be be the solution with the added bonus of extra leverage to stop abit quicker too.
So thats the route i'm gonna go methinks. So anyone got any ideas as to what fits well?

[MAXIBOY]

285mm 21 discs or 172 discs i think before getting into alloy bells and 325mm discs like me.
calipers can all be mounted on custom alloys brackets but for best results use custom alloy calipers.
i would think anything in reason like scooby brakes porsche calipers could be made to fit with a little engineering.

we used to re drill bmw discs and custom mounts porsche calipers on a lot of volkswagens at one time without major brake and master cylinder mods.
would take a little research but as always anythings possible.

most just upgrade to wilwoods though. as they not that expensive, if you haven,t got loads of time to invest in custom applications.

[Purple]

its firm and steady to press, its just i seem to have to really press my back hard into the seat and push it like hell to get and kind of decent braking power, and even then its not that great
IMO, if your description is accurate, I would say there is a problem in the brake system somewhere. Even when I had 2 faulty calipers on the car, I don't think I needed that much pedal pressure to stop, though the braking distance was iffy at best! But when I got the brakes working proper, I don't need much more than few stabs of the pedal to slow down very fast.

[Tuccy]

285mm 21 discs or 17poo discs i think before getting into alloy bells and 325mm discs like me.
calipers can all be mounted on custom alloys brackets but for best results use custom alloy calipers.
i would think anything in reason like scooby brakes porsche calipers could be made to fit with a little engineering.

we used to re drill bmw discs and custom mounts porsche calipers on a lot of volkswagens at one time without major brake and master cylinder mods.
would take a little research but as always anythings possible.

most just upgrade to wilwoods though. as they not that expensive, if you haven,t got loads of time to invest in custom applications.

This is what im interested in, as i have access to a garage and my dad is a engineer with lathes etc etc so making custom parts is no problem,
anyone got ideas of what discs and calibres would fit without having to change master cylinder etc etc, thanks maxiboy i will try do some research. however it would be nice to hear from peops on here who can say for definate through their own experiences.....

P.s there are 17" rims on the car so i have plenty of space for bigger discs etc

[Swervin_Mervin]

i aint come over from a jap car i own a renault 5, another clio, and an extra van and although renaults do have good brakes the brakes on a standard valver are not up to the job if you are driving hard that was my point.
I dont want 2 cm of brake travel then be hitting the windscreen.
for the first 3 or 4 laps the brakes are great. but once they are warm they are crap stamp on the pedal as hard as you like your goin across the grass!
the problem is that the discs dont have the surface area to effectively cool quickly enough. uprated pads are a good quick fix and maybe some extra venting to help cool the brakes might help but bigger discs would be be the solution with the added bonus of extra leverage to stop abit quicker too.
So thats the route i'm gonna go methinks. So anyone got any ideas as to what fits well?

1: Fit better pads
2: Don't brake as much.

:wink:

[paudi294]

wot bhp is that pushing

[davem]

my valver is only pushing about 150 bhp.
I dont over brake i just think they could be better. The car handles superbly on track, the performance could be increased but no point if it aint gonna stop.
Tried various pads have mintex pads in at the moment but they still overheating.
Bigger discs is what i'm goin for, i was looking at the possibility of redrilling some discs off a laguna or similar or doing the r21 conversion no point in going too big. Then getting some brackets made up to move the caliper out.
I like to try and make things myself rather than spending a fortune on ready made items such as willwood calipers. However i have a set of mg metro 4 pot calipers which would fit with a bit of playing so that might be a solution although a little heavy so i gotta weigh up the pros and cons of that one.

[Swervin_Mervin]

There was a guy on here many moons ago that used to rally a clio. He'd owned one in teh past as well, and he reckoned he tired virtually all the combos out there.

In the end he settled on Wilwoods with std discs. It's the ability of the caliper to dissipate the heat that's crucial. Hence the std pig iron ones tend to be the weak link.

[Tuccy]

wot bhp is that pushing

sorry i have no idea, meaning to get it on a rolling road for a while just out of curosity, but havnt got around to it yet :?

[Chris H]

wheels make a big difference. ph1's really need the air deflectors on the wishbones to ward off the fade.