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arj256
16-06-2007, 22:03
I was thinking earlier on, is the Williams all that?
Yes it is a very good handling car, goes well and looks great.
But its nothing which rival manufactuers have simular and as time has gone on there are plenty of cars which have simular characteristics.

Looking at the special edition cars the Williams appears to have just been cobbled out of spare parts and taken well to.
For example the E30 M3 has many parts on it which where for that model, and the same with some other holomogated cars.

Discuss :wink:

SQUEAKY CLEAN
16-06-2007, 23:00
I don't have a Williams (but do have an e30!) and my view is that Williams are most definately SPECIAL.
Yes they are great to drive and you don't see them every day(well not round here anyway!) but there is something extra that i can't put my finger on?...............magical and hasn't lost it's appeal!
If i ever get that fortune,there will be a GT3 parked alongside a Williams 1 . :D

wavy
17-06-2007, 09:23
i have owned quite a few cars and i would say beyond all doubt that the williams is the best by a long way
lots of fun to drive and gives you confidence behind the wheel i know is not the be all and end all of all cars but alot of ppl give it a good looking at and seem give it respect
used every day with no probs
in short if the car isnt special it makes me feel special (in a good way folks) :)

the only down side is it temps me to go a tad faster than i normally would and i never have my tunes playing so i can hear the noise with out interruption 8) :)

the williams is king 9 out of 10 cats prefer it http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/jeffvickyeric/fun%20pictures/cool%20backgrounds/Emotions/nicecat.gif

Daz
17-06-2007, 09:31
I think it is.
I hate mine.. it's never right, yet, I love it.. because it's a Williams.

Argh :lol:

Andy
17-06-2007, 10:55
there is not many around i love old cars to tell you the truth had a new one and they just dont feel the same


love both my williams even though 0171 is a pain

Gav
17-06-2007, 13:17
obviously iam going to say this :roll: lol

But imo it isnt that special - special edt cars are ones that stand out, like the v6 clio, as said an E30, etc etc

Cars that are the exact replica of a lesser model but have a few suspension and engine mods imo isnt that special and wasnt worth the asking price when they 1st came out#


however, i think that if Renault stuck to what they orginaly said and only made Williams 1's and no 2/3's, they still wouldnt be 'special' in my eyes, but would be alot more appriciated and more of a collectors car

Zollo
18-06-2007, 09:50
Cars that are the exact replica of a lesser model but have a few suspension and engine mods imo isnt that special and wasnt worth the asking price when they 1st came out#


Do you exactly how much the Williams was, compared to the equivilant Valver when new, Gav? And do you know the price of all its rivals to judge that its asking price was too high? And have you even driven a decent Williams?!

What makes a car special is the way it drives, not the parts that have been put on it. It's special because it drives better and is more fun than other hot hatches. Some people will buy a Williams just because it's a Williams, of course, but then that just proves it is special.

Adam - The E30 M3 cost obscene amounts of money when it was new (the equivilant of about £60k now), hence why they could afford to put bespoke parts on.

nyk
18-06-2007, 12:02
A williams was £14995 new, the valver was £14450.

Back in the day.

I agree with Gav, I dont think they are THAT special, although I appreciate the williams. Its a brill car dont get me wrong, but its an old version of the now cup model or trophy.

Tommo
18-06-2007, 12:03
Cars don't have to be Ltd Editions or stand out to be special, look at the 205 GTI! It's one of the best drivers cars ever, the Williams is even better, hence why they are classed as 'special'.

nyk
18-06-2007, 12:12
Cars don't have to be Ltd Editions or stand out to be special, look at the 205 GTI! It's one of the best drivers cars ever, the Williams is even better, hence why they are classed as 'special'.

But the 205 was a general hot hatch, not a limited edition so you cannot compare. The 205 GTi would have been considered a competitior and in the same class as a valver not the williams.

The williams is slightly better version of a valver, that has been tweaked an a few bits changed to make it a little more special. Thats all. As said its modern day equivalent is the R26 or R27, both made to celebrate F1 wins as was the williams. Limited editions, tweaked versions of the hot hatches.

Gav
18-06-2007, 12:21
Cars that are the exact replica of a lesser model but have a few suspension and engine mods imo isnt that special and wasnt worth the asking price when they 1st came out#


Do you exactly how much the Williams was, compared to the equivilant Valver when new, Gav? And do you know the price of all its rivals to judge that its asking price was too high? And have you even driven a decent Williams?!

What makes a car special is the way it drives, not the parts that have been put on it. It's special because it drives better and is more fun than other hot hatches. Some people will buy a Williams just because it's a Williams, of course, but then that just proves it is special.

Adam - The E30 M3 cost obscene amounts of money when it was new (the equivilant of about £60k now), hence why they could afford to put bespoke parts on.

Aye i have mate and i wasnt that impressed tbh hence why i dont own one now

Totti
18-06-2007, 12:28
A williams was £14995 new, the valver was £14450.

Back in the day.

I agree with Gav, I dont think they are THAT special, although I appreciate the williams. Its a brill car dont get me wrong, but its an old version of the now cup model or trophy.

On the 18.10.95 Mr Bertie Darius Morton paid £15,990.00 for my williams

Zollo
18-06-2007, 12:31
So a Williams was only £500 more than a Valver, but it wasn't special enough to justify that extra? ... Even though a Williams today is twice the price of an equivalent condition Valver? Righto!

Exactly what Tommo said - 205 GTi, Valver, Williams - what makes them special, and one better than the other, is how they drive. Of course you can compare - they're all just hot hatches. What makes the Williams special is that (according to the press and the majority of enthusiasts) it drives better than the rest.

... if people aren't impressed with the way they drive, they're in the minority.

Gav
18-06-2007, 12:45
So a Williams was only £500 more than a Valver, but it wasn't special enough to justify that extra? ... Even though a Williams today is twice the price of an equivalent condition Valver? Righto!

Exactly what Tommo said - 205 GTi, Valver, Williams - what makes them special, and one better than the other, is how they drive. Of course you can compare - they're all just hot hatches. What makes the Williams special is that (according to the press and the majority of enthusiasts) it drives better than the rest.

... if people aren't impressed with the way they drive, they're in the minority.

i like the way it drives but i dont think that is enough to class it as special

fasterthanjesus
18-06-2007, 12:48
handling, looks, limited edition....

all the hallmarks of "special".

big hp
18-06-2007, 12:49
What did you do on this drive though?

A quick blast down the road is hardly enough to compare. (i take it your refering to pauls 3 where you scared the life out of him lol)

You need a couple of hours down some twisties etc to see where it really shines.

big hp
18-06-2007, 12:51
Even my gf comments on how many people look and point. Makes it special in my book 8)

Gav
18-06-2007, 12:51
What did you do on this drive though?

A quick blast down the road is hardly enough to compare. (i take it your refering to pauls 3 where you scared the life out of him lol)

You need a couple of hours down some twisties etc to see where it really shines.

lol no mate not that one - when my valver was off the road i drove my mates williams 1 for a week

big hp
18-06-2007, 12:52
Paul was shaking when he came back.

Gav
18-06-2007, 12:55
Paul was shaking when he came back.


lol - white as a ghost mate. Safe to say he wont be letting me drive it again

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:15
Even my gf comments on how many people look and point. Makes it special in my book 8)

You get the same with any hot hatch though, I regularly get it in the valver.

Totti - yours may have had optional extras or something, but the book price was £14995.

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:27
Anyway, your all gonna say its the best thing since sliced bread cos its what you own lol

In reality I dont see how you can compare a limited edition tweeked version of a classic hot hatch to every other hot hatch that was on the market at that time. Its equivalent of comparing the R27 - with its uprated chassis -to the handling capabilities of an Focus ST. They're not gonna be on the same parr are they as the ST170 is the competition of the regular 197.

The wqilliams fetches more money simply because there were fewer made. Externally they look no different or any more special thatn a valver, barr some gold wheels and stickers.

The williams is a valver, with a few left over suspension bits they had from the R19, a couple of stickers and a set of gold wheels. Not to mention the extra cc which they then restricted the capabilities of with a lower red line. lol That is all it is, and not anymore special because of it.

:lol:

Tommo
18-06-2007, 13:40
Why do so many people on here create hybrids if it the williams isn't much better than a valver?

The Williams is a totally different animal to the valver, it may externally look similar but the bits they 'improved' count for a hell of a lot.

All hot hatches can be compared, evo do it on a regular basis, doesn't make it any less fair if they compare limited edition tweeked versions to run off the mill hot hatches.

Zollo
18-06-2007, 13:45
Anyway, your all gonna say its the best thing since sliced bread cos its what you own lol

I don't own a Williams anymore. What's more, I wouldn't even say it's the best car I've owned, or the best hot hatch. But it is special.


In reality I dont see how you can compare a limited edition tweeked version of a classic hot hatch to every other hot hatch that was on the market at that time. Its equivalent of comparing the R27 - with its uprated chassis -to the handling capabilities of an Focus ST.

You're comparing a Valver (just a hot hatch) to a Williams (a tweaked, limited edition), so what's the problem. If it's unfair to compare the two, then surely that means the Williams really is that much more special?


They're not gonna be on the same parr are they as the ST170 is the competition of the regular 197.

The Focus ST (I presume you don't actually mean the ST170, as they don't make that anymore) isn't a competitor to the Clio as it's a bigger car and a class above. Its direct competitors are the Megane and Golf.


The wqilliams fetches more money simply because there were fewer made.

Are there really that many less Willies around than Valvers? Valver owners always go on about the numbers being about the same now! I'm very impressed you've managed to get into the psyche of every Williams buyer and taken it upon yourself to decide why they bought one.


The williams is a valver, with a few left over suspension bits they had from the R19, a couple of stickers and a set of gold wheels. Not to mention the extra cc which they then restricted the capabilities of with a lower red line. lol That is all it is, and not anymore special because of it.


Never heard of something being much more than the sum of its parts?

:roll:

Gav
18-06-2007, 13:45
Why do so many people on here create hybrids if it the williams isn't much better than a valver?

The Williams is a totally different animal to the valver, it may externally look similar but the bits they 'improved' count for a hell of a lot.

All hot hatches can be compared, evo do it on a regular basis, doesn't make it any less fair if they compare limited edition tweeked versions to run off the mill hot hatches.

people make hybrids because it is a quicker engine - this thread isnt saying the williams is slow, it's saying it isnt special

U will find, most hybrids out there still run valver suspension, only diff is the engine

Gav
18-06-2007, 13:46
the williams ISNT ltd edition!

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:48
Do you know how stupid that sounds, you basically just said it doesnt matter if cars from different classes are compared against each other pmsl.
Of course it matters as its not a true comparison.

Tbh I dont understand why so many people hybrid their valvers, as the cost far outweighs the gains. But for most people especially on here, that can change the engine themselves it is a worthy mod I suppose. This is an age old arguement that the elitist williams owners argue till they are blue in the face. Doesnt change the facts though.

The discussion is not that a williams isnt much better than a valver- but that they are not that special. Which they are not.

Zollo
18-06-2007, 13:53
Do you know how stupid that sounds, you basically just said it doesnt matter if cars from different classes are compared against each other pmsl.
Of course it matters as its not a true comparison.


So now you're saying that the Williams is in a class above the Valver and it's not even fair comparing them?


This is an age old arguement that the elitist williams owners argue till they are blue in the face. Doesnt change the facts though.

They're not facts; they your opinions. And opinions that differ hugely from what the press said, both at the time and today, and what market values seem to back up.

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:55
There is too many posts on this thread for me to keep up lol

Zollo wind your neck in, I never said I knew why every williams owner bought one, nor did I imply it.

The debate is - as stated above in the title"is the williams that special"

And my opinion is that it is not.

If you dont like it fine.

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:57
Do you know how stupid that sounds, you basically just said it doesnt matter if cars from different classes are compared against each other pmsl.
Of course it matters as its not a true comparison.


So now you're saying that the Williams is in a class above the Valver and it's not even fair comparing them?

We all know the williams is the tweeked version of the valver- thats what I originally said!!


This is an age old arguement that the elitist williams owners argue till they are blue in the face. Doesnt change the facts though.

They're not facts; they your opinions. And opinions that differ hugely from what the press said, both at the time and today, and what market values seem to back up.

Look at the stats standard for standard - these are the facts I am referring too. An extra 10Ft/lb of torque and 13 bhp - from this F7R that is a "world apart" from an F7P - as the williams owners put it.

nyk
18-06-2007, 13:58
the williams ISNT ltd edition!

And it was - until they made the 2's and 3's :wink:

Gav
18-06-2007, 14:00
the williams ISNT ltd edition!

And it was - until they made the 2's and 3's :wink:

about as common as a brummie then ;)

bluenose
18-06-2007, 14:02
Oi Gav! Less of it! :wink:

Gav
18-06-2007, 14:03
Oi Gav! Less of it! :wink:


Im classed as a brummie to most people mate :(

So i can say it!! :D

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:04
You are a midlands cross southern hybrid.

Get some gold shoes Gav and a name plaque -you too can be elitist then :wink:

Swervin_Mervin
18-06-2007, 14:07
Removing the valver/willy arguments I think the Williams ranks as special personally.

Whilst not entirely to my flavour it was one of the first hot hatches to be truly accomplished on many levels. IMO the 306 is a better car as the chassis is more of a challenge to master and the engine is just soooo much sweeter.

Doesn't mean the Williams isn't special though in my view. I don't think that many cars rank as truly "special".

northy
18-06-2007, 14:07
the williams ISNT ltd edition!

And it was - until they made the 2's and 3's :wink:

All 3 models were limited editions Gav, The 1's numbered and hologomated for rallying - limited 2's to supply demand and then the 3's!

The 3's are the rarest of the editions - only imported 309 of them!

Zollo
18-06-2007, 14:09
Zollo wind your neck in

No, you wind yours in. :wink:



I never said I knew why every williams owner bought one, nor did I imply it..

Secondhand car values are set by what people are willing to pay. By saying the Williams is worth more because fewer were made, you're implying every owner buys it because there were fewer made. So yes, you did.



The debate is - as stated above in the title"is the williams that special"

And my opinion is that it is not.

If you dont like it fine.

Fair enough, it's your opinion. It is not, however, fact. And that is what you have said it is, a few times.

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:13
I'm not gonna get into an arguement with you Zollo - just cos they hold there money better due to them being rarer- does not mean I assume that everyone who owns one bought one for this reason.

As already said I was referring to the facts of performance ^^^ up there somewhere.

No one is allowed an opinion lately unless your opinion is following the pack :roll:

Zollo
18-06-2007, 14:17
I'm not gonna get into an arguement with you Zollo - just cos they hold there money better due to them being rarer- does not mean I assume that everyone who owns one bought one for this reason.

Right, so if they're worth more and people don't just buy them because they're rarer, then why do people buy them? Because they're special! Disagree with that, fine, but the proof is the buying public willing to spend more for that extra whatever.


No one is allowed an opinion lately unless your opinion is following the pack :roll:

People always disagree on forums. It's gonna happen. And because you're in the minority (this is a Williams forum, remember), more people will disagree with you.

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:19
People buy cars because they like them, well people I know anyway- not because they are special.

And sorry if I am mistaken but is this not a forum for the 16V and the williams?

Tommo
18-06-2007, 14:19
Yep but posting that a Williams is just a valver with a few bits stuck on, and are not special will understandably get a rise out of people on here as it is a Williams forum. You have your opinion fair doos, but most people on here will disagree with you

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:22
But it is the truth, a willaism is a valver wioth an extra few bits.

So now I have to cushion your ego's, not have my own opinion and for some reason the club has become a williams club and excluded the valver now!

Good job there is valver only clubs really isnt there, as valver owners - who might I add make up the majortiy of your members - seem to no longer be welcome on this site.

Zollo
18-06-2007, 14:23
People pay a premium for certain cars because they like them, yes. And why might one like a car? Yep, because they consider it special.

The title kinda gives it away, although absolutely any Mk1 owner is more than welcome and always has been. If some people have an (unwarranted) complex...

And if someone says the Williams isn't all that special, surely you've got to be prepared for a few people to disagree?

bluenose
18-06-2007, 14:27
Oi Gav! Less of it! :wink:


Im classed as a brummie to most people mate :(

So i can say it!! :D

Fortunately, despite the majority of my family still living there, i have lost the accent. At least it sounds to me like i have :? Long live Brummieland! :D
Slightly off topic but nvm! IMO the Williams is a special little car with a big (and wholly justified) reputation.

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:29
Funny as it does say the only UK club dedicated to the williams and 16V, but hey ho what does it matter.

I certainly expect people to disagree with my opinion, but what I dont expect is people to argue with me and try and ram their opinion down my throat.

If you dont like my opinion then dont engage it. Trying to argue your point at me and force me to comply with your opinion is ridiculous. No one made anyone post, arguing that I was wrong -you all felt compelled to force me to see thinks your way. :roll:

Zollo
18-06-2007, 14:35
I certainly expect people to disagree with my opinion, but what I dont expect is people to argue with me and try and ram their opinion down my throat.

If you dont like my opinion then dont engage it. Trying to argue your point at me and force me to comply with your opinion is ridiculous. No one made anyone post, arguing that I was wrong -you all felt compelled to force me to see thinks your way. :roll:

Your posts generally do provoke some pretty strong reactions at times though, Nyk. I can only apologise for taking the bait.....

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:36
[quote=nyk]

Your posts generally do provoke some pretty strong reactions at times though, Nyk. I can only apologise for taking the bait.....

lol I am an opinionated woman what do you expect :lol:

northy
18-06-2007, 14:44
So now I have to cushion your ego's, not have my own opinion and for some reason the club has become a williams club and excluded the valver now!

Why has wc excluded the valver ??? I certainly havent as i own 3 valvers and 1 williams. Valvers are more common that williams (and they are very very similar) so why would we exclude them from the forum ? :roll:


Good job there is valver only clubs really isnt there, as valver owners - who might I add make up the majortiy of your members - seem to no longer be welcome on this site.

What :shock:....I dont think that comment is the honest views of all valver owners on here though nic lol. Wheres this no longer welcome stuff come from ????

is this a 16vclio.co.uk thing ???

WC welcomes all clio owners - just like we welcome people who do not have a renault at all.... but at the end of the day its williamsclio and williams will and are ''always be our bag baby'' ! :wink:

nyk
18-06-2007, 14:46
I was replying in reponse to your members stating it was a williams club. I know it is, but my understanding is that it is a williams and 16V dedicated club -well that is what is stated on your front page anyway, I remember reading it when I joined the site some time ago.

northy
18-06-2007, 14:50
The club was founded in September 2004 by a handful of dedicated Williamsclio enthusiasts, and since this time the club has grown into an online forum and database dedicated to the Williams and MK1 Clio 16V.


Thats right. I have never discriminated against valvers lol....Without them wc would be alot quiter. Im sure every williams owner who uses WC would agree with that.

Glad that one is sorted out - now back on topic :lol:

Gav
18-06-2007, 14:53
ive just ate a really stale m&m - shud i sue :?

Zollo
18-06-2007, 15:00
I was replying in reponse to your members stating it was a williams club.

I stated it was a Williams forum to illustrate why a lot of people were disagreeing with you. It was to make a point to you rather than make every non-Williams owner that's been on the site feel unwelcome. :wink:

Purple
18-06-2007, 15:12
IMHO, after so long with the Williams, I just treat it as a cheap & fast runabout these days. But at times when I get to drive something modern to compare, I get a sense that my little car reflects the kind of driving sensation that I like of the vehicles made in the 70s & 80s which is missing these days. I think it's a more of a personal thing with these type of cars.

nyk
18-06-2007, 15:36
I was replying in reponse to your members stating it was a williams club.

I stated it was a Williams forum to illustrate why a lot of people were disagreeing with you. It was to make a point to you rather than make every non-Williams owner that's been on the site feel unwelcome. :wink:

In which case maybe a slight think and rephrase before you hit that submit button eh? Your sweeping comment that this is a williams club, is obviously untrue. And "a lot of people" did not argue with me, others left me to have my own opinion - it was you Mr Zollo that was doing most of the arguing.

As I said back on the first page, I am not going to engage in an arguement over it, as its pathetic "say the williams is special or I'll shout you down" schoolboy playground tactics.

In the big scheme of things, both the williams and the valver are crap cars anyway lol

Zollo
18-06-2007, 15:47
In which case maybe a slight think and rephrase before you hit that submit button eh?

I really must be doing something wrong if I get asked to phrase things in a less provoking manner by you, of all people! :oops:

nyk
18-06-2007, 15:52
And what exactly do you mean "by you of all people"??

Do you know me? no
Have you ever met me? no

Yet your quick to categorise me....... :roll:

Zollo
18-06-2007, 15:55
I'm not categorising you at all. I'm merely saying that you're a rather feisty lady!

nyk
18-06-2007, 16:02
In which case you are forgiven.

:lol:

jay s
18-06-2007, 16:47
is the williams special? id say yes imo. i know i don't own a williams but my hybrid gets a hell of alot of attention from people and i often get people asking me is it a williams, if a williams was'nt special i doubt people would be asking me this.

owning the 2, a williams is a better car than a valver. ok so a std 1.8 and 2.0 won't be miles apart speed wise but mod the 2 and 2.0l will see better gains. handling: williams widetrack is shit loads better than valver track, trust me on this one. i have no idea why more people don't widetrack there hybrids/valvers, out of a 2.0l or widetrack setup id pick widetrack its that much better....

i should of brought a williams first off :lol:

seanofnp
18-06-2007, 17:02
On top of the handling of these cars and performance the other main crunch is the fact that they have character. And alot of it! most cars today just dont have that.

northy
18-06-2007, 17:11
Do you know me? no
Have you ever met me? no
Yet your quick to categorise me....... :roll:


I'm not categorising you at all. I'm merely saying that you're a rather feisty lady!


In which case you are forgiven.

:lol:

:rofl1: PMSL...thats quality. Youve made my afternoon there guys lol

Swervin_Mervin
18-06-2007, 17:52
is the williams special? id say yes imo. i know i don't own a williams but my hybrid gets a hell of alot of attention from people and i often get people asking me is it a williams, if a williams was'nt special i doubt people would be asking me this.

I agree. I often have to explain what mine is when I say it's not a williams


owning the 2, a williams is a better car than a valver. ok so a std 1.8 and 2.0 won't be miles apart speed wise but mod the 2 and 2.0l will see better gains. handling: williams widetrack is s**t loads better than valver track, trust me on this one. i have no idea why more people don't widetrack there hybrids/valvers, out of a 2.0l or widetrack setup id pick widetrack its that much better...

That's a whole 'nother debate that hinges entirely on one's own definition of "better". Best left alone imo. :lol:

Tommo
18-06-2007, 17:55
Maybe there is a whole other debate about what makes a car special. In my experience I've never owned a car which creates so much interest as the Williams does. I've had people ask me about it on petrol forecourts, people stop and look at it when it's outside the office. I even had a guy offer to buy it in a traffic jam on the M6 once! lol! I've never experienced this with previous cars I've owned so I am thinking it may be something pretty special for this to happen??

vts_saxo
18-06-2007, 18:15
I think they are special, yes they are made out of other renault parts but they work together so well imo. I dont see how people can say a williams and a valver are the same, out of interest nky why does yours look like a williams from the outside now? Becuase the williams looks special maybe?

nyk
18-06-2007, 18:29
WTF ^^^^

My car does not look like a williams, it looks like a valver -it is the williams that looks like MY car! As the valver was made first!

vts_saxo
18-06-2007, 20:59
WTF ^^^^

My car does not look like a williams, it looks like a valver -it is the williams that looks like MY car! As the valver was made first!

My point was you put gold speedlines on the car to make it look special like the williams does, as imo a standard valver looks very bland by comparison.

nyk
18-06-2007, 21:04
WTF ^^^^

My car does not look like a williams, it looks like a valver -it is the williams that looks like MY car! As the valver was made first!

My point was you put gold speedlines on the car to make it look special like the williams does, as imo a standard valver looks very bland by comparison.

PMSL so you think I put speedlines on my car to make it look like a williams- nothing at all to do with the fact that I liked the wheels.

Fcuk me the mans a mind reader, give him a prize :roll:

ae
18-06-2007, 21:54
The valver is a cheap mans Williams. Williams is miles better. Anyway the valvers missing the best bit from a Williams, it Suspension set up.

Andrew

vts_saxo
18-06-2007, 22:02
WTF ^^^^

My car does not look like a williams, it looks like a valver -it is the williams that looks like MY car! As the valver was made first!

My point was you put gold speedlines on the car to make it look special like the williams does, as imo a standard valver looks very bland by comparison.

PMSL so you think I put speedlines on my car to make it look like a williams- nothing at all to do with the fact that I liked the wheels.

Fcuk me the mans a mind reader, give him a prize :roll:

lol @ that reply you sound like an aggressive chav.

Daz.
18-06-2007, 22:25
Willy's ain't that different from a valver...

They're just a superior driving experience...

It's the publicity that first made them special when the valver was overlooked in favor of it..

Enthusiasts make them special, just like a valver is made special by its followers...

I also think that its much rarer and in some ways for more refreshing to see a 100% standard valver over a williams, people expect there to be a 100% original Williams because of the value of a standard one over a modified.

100% standard valvers rock - especially mk1 ph1 red uns 8) 8) 8)

But the Williams is a much better car to experience.

FATBOY
18-06-2007, 22:29
FFS its a forum for cars!!! theres more important things going on in the world than arguing about ****ing cars!!!!! why does everyone argue like petty children! get a grip people! yes people have there opinions(this is a forum with freedom of speech,within reason :wink: ) but dont take things so much to heart, cant we all play and get along :wink: oh and for gav and scotts info- no gav wont be driving it again :lol:

Daz.
18-06-2007, 22:53
FFS its a forum for cars!!! theres more important things going on in the world than arguing about f***king cars!!!!! why does everyone argue like petty children! get a grip people! yes people have there opinions(this is a forum with freedom of speech,within reason :wink: ) but dont take things so much to heart, cant we all play and get along :wink: oh and for gav and scotts info- no gav wont be driving it again :lol:

Oi mofo now listen to me..

Mine was a nice post biatch so less of the lip

Word up hoe!

You ain't all that!

http://www.abc.net.au/tropic/stories/Talk_to_th_m1190886.jpg

Wobba
18-06-2007, 23:17
I was thinking earlier on, is the Williams all that?
Yes it is a very good handling car, goes well and looks great.
But its nothing which rival manufactuers have simular and as time has gone on there are plenty of cars which have simular characteristics.

Looking at the special edition cars the Williams appears to have just been cobbled out of spare parts and taken well to.
For example the E30 M3 has many parts on it which where for that model, and the same with some other holomogated cars.

Discuss :wink:
I can post you reviews from car mags if you like...I mean, they STILL talk about the Williams as a benchmark car to this day...like 12 years later...I think it more than hit the spot with more than one journo!

arj256
18-06-2007, 23:19
But the 205 was a general hot hatch, not a limited edition so you cannot compare. The 205 GTi would have been considered a competitior and in the same class as a valver not the williams.

The williams is slightly better version of a valver, that has been tweaked an a few bits changed to make it a little more special. Thats all. As said its modern day equivalent is the R26 or R27, both made to celebrate F1 wins as was the williams. Limited editions, tweaked versions of the hot hatches.

Back in the day when Renault released the 1.8 16v, it was to be the competitor for the 1.9 205 Gti.
They soon realised that it wasnt good enough to beat there competitor, so they released the Williams.
So really with two top drivers cars which people look back at, the valver lost both.

Its not a modern day R26 or R27 as there just there for making Renault money, the Williams was released for a purpose for Renault.


Anyway, your all gonna say its the best thing since sliced bread cos its what you own lol

The williams is a valver, with a few left over suspension bits they had from the R19, a couple of stickers and a set of gold wheels. Not to mention the extra cc which they then restricted the capabilities of with a lower red line. lol That is all it is, and not anymore special because of it.

:lol:

Yup, hence why your sticking up for the 16v :wink:
Its special because of its all round package, it has little flaws.
There are flaws which can be picked up with the other renault models out the box..


This thread wasnt meant to be a 16v vs Williams, more out the box look at the other manufactuers rivals..
The Williams is special, due to how its been remembered and its package.
But it suffers from being made more special than it really is at times imo.
Quite easily overhyped, this is probably due to the age of them now though.
Looking outside the box there are plenty of cars which do things better than the Williams without some of the hassles which are associated with them now.
Back in the day though they would of been 8)

Hulio
18-06-2007, 23:46
My valver now has blue dials, blue gearknob an F7R, wide-track and gold wheels (prima replica's.....) because I think the Williams is special!
I dont care that the extra bits came out of renaults parts bin, isn't that how other great hot hatches were created like the mark 1 golf gti?
It's the complete package that makes the car and renault got it so right with the Williams and for under £500 more then the 16v when new thats a bloody bargain.

It was voted 3rd best front wheel drive car ever made to date by evo magazine and thats good enough for me!

Swervin_Mervin
18-06-2007, 23:52
Back in the day when Renault released the 1.8 16v, it was to be the competitor for the 1.9 205 Gti.
They soon realised that it wasnt good enough to beat there competitor, so they released the Williams.
So really with two top drivers cars which people look back at, the valver lost both.



I'm sorry Adam, and I hate to keep this thread off topic as so many others have but that's simply not true. The Valver is so shite it swept all before it in its rally class. However, the rules for that class were changed to allow 2L engines, and so Renault cobbled together the F7R and made a few suspension tweaks. The williams 1 was purely an homolgation special with the marketing bit of "williams" tacked on.

It was NOT created to try and better any other car on the market.

As for how the valver lost out to the 205 I'm not quite sure. It panned it on the rally scene and was always a far more accomplished hot hatch.

Totti
19-06-2007, 00:02
My valver now has blue dials, blue gearknob an F7R, wide-track and gold wheels (prima replica's.....) because I think the Williams is special!
I dont care that the extra bits came out of renaults parts bin, isn't that how other great hot hatches were created like the mark 1 golf gti?
It's the complete package that makes the car and renault got it so right with the Williams and for under £500 more then the 16v when new thats a bloody bargain.

It was voted 3rd best front wheel drive car ever made to date by evo magazine and thats good enough for me!

Wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper and easier just to go out and buy a williams?

MatBrown
19-06-2007, 00:05
I think it is.
I hate mine.. it's never right, yet, I love it.. because it's a Williams.

Argh :lol:

He says after returning from my house! :P


Mat.

Hulio
19-06-2007, 00:09
I had a 1.6 205 gti and then a 1.9 gti that I then traded in towards my valver. The valver was a lot better then both of those in standard form.
The 16v has always suffered with being underrated but it was and is a better car then a 205 gti. :P

Totti
19-06-2007, 00:12
I had a 1.6 205 gti and then a 1.9 gti that I then traded in towards my valver. The valver was a lot better then both of those in standard form.
The 16v has always suffered with being underrated but it was and is a better car then a 205 gti. :P

Thats a very strong comment to make!

The 1.9 GTI is an awesome car to drive and so is the 1.6 GTI, even in stadard form. I would actually say that the 1.9 GTI is better to drive than the valver.

I guess its all down to personal preference.

Gav
19-06-2007, 00:18
so sue then yes??

Hulio
19-06-2007, 00:26
Wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper and easier just to go out and buy a williams?

I have owned my 16v since 1996, I look after my cars and she has still only done around 45k and I have modified it gradually over the years, a hobby that I enjoy as a born and bred petrolhead!
Why would I want to buy another version of the same car that I already have albeit with some uprated parts when I can just wait until the parts are more cheaply available, i.e. the last couple of years and add them to the car as and when a good deal turns up.
I know that my car has never been thrashed, crashed and abused in any way (apart from by me in a controlled manner.....), my insurance is cheaper even with the mods then a williams and I have lovely mint condition factory leathers that are frankly nicer then williams seats. I have selected the parts of the williams that I think are an improvement over a valver and then taken the spec of mine beyond a standard williams without the guilt of messing about with a modern classic and by the way, the arches on mine are pristine and I have not had to get them done once!

Does that answer your question?!

Wobba
19-06-2007, 00:28
http://www.williamsclio.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=249843#249843

Posted some old reviews of the Willy.

I actually preferred my R5 Raider to my 16v in terms of fun.

Totti
19-06-2007, 00:33
Wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper and easier just to go out and buy a williams?

I have owned my 16v since 1996, I look after my cars and she has still only done around 45k and I have modified it gradually over the years, a hobby that I enjoy as a born and bred petrolhead!
Why would I want to buy another version of the same car that I already have albeit with some uprated parts when I can just wait until the parts are more cheaply available, i.e. the last couple of years and add them to the car as and when a good deal turns up.
I know that my car has never been thrashed, crashed and abused in any way (apart from by me in a controlled manner.....), my insurance is cheaper even with the mods then a williams and I have lovely mint condition factory leathers that are frankly nicer then williams seats. I have selected the parts of the williams that I think are an improvement over a valver and then taken the spec of mine beyond a standard williams without the guilt of messing about with a modern classic and by the way, the arches on mine are pristine and I have not had to get them done once!

Does that answer your question?!

Yup....thanks.....sounds like you have a nice example.

Coops
19-06-2007, 00:40
the only reason i ever got into mk1 clios was simple, i love the way they look. thats it! its a bonus that they turned out to be decent little cars aswell!

as such to me they are all special, and for an at least 12 year old car even the little phase 2 1.2's still fit amongst the modern cars on the road without looking to dated.

i've been tempted by a williams a few times, but always tried to be clever and do something different................my how i have paid! :oops:

Hulio
19-06-2007, 00:41
I would actually say that the 1.9 GTI is better to drive than the valver.


I didn't like the dull 8v engine noise (my F7P sounded awesome) and the fact that it fell apart even quicker then a valver does. To me the 16v was a natural progression upwards from the 205 gti but I guess its all down to personal taste. :D

Totti
19-06-2007, 00:48
I would actually say that the 1.9 GTI is better to drive than the valver.


I didn't like the dull 8v engine noise (my F7P sounded awesome) and the fact that it fell apart even quicker then a valver does. To me the 16v was a natural progression upwards from the 205 gti but I guess its all down to personal taste. :D

But the tinny sound of it and the feeling that you get that parts are falling off as you drive make the GTI.

I have to admit the F7 engine does sound good. I think the valver was designed to be better built and more of an every day car than the 205.

arj256
19-06-2007, 01:06
Back in the day when Renault released the 1.8 16v, it was to be the competitor for the 1.9 205 Gti.
They soon realised that it wasnt good enough to beat there competitor, so they released the Williams.
So really with two top drivers cars which people look back at, the valver lost both.



I'm sorry Adam, and I hate to keep this thread off topic as so many others have but that's simply not true. The Valver is so shite it swept all before it in its rally class. However, the rules for that class were changed to allow 2L engines, and so Renault cobbled together the F7R and made a few suspension tweaks. The williams 1 was purely an homolgation special with the marketing bit of "williams" tacked on.

It was NOT created to try and better any other car on the market.

As for how the valver lost out to the 205 I'm not quite sure. It panned it on the rally scene and was always a far more accomplished hot hatch.

I never said the valver was shite, its an excellent car.
Im not sure on the rulings, but usually its 1400-1799 then 1800-2000 etc.
I cant see the 1.9 being in a class of its own?

The Williams was created to better the rival cars it set out to beat in the rallying it was used in.

What i meant it lost out in was with the publics eye, it never gets looked at or reconised for what it is, which is a shame.
Everyone always thinks the Williams and the 205.

Zollo
19-06-2007, 08:52
I would actually say that the 1.9 GTI is better to drive than the valver.

I think the valver was designed to be better built and more of an every day car than the 205.

The Pug was introduced in 85/86; the Valver in 91/92. Five to six years is a long time in car world when it comes to making a better car, so it would be a surprise if the Valver isn't better overall. More fun, though, is a different matter...

Swervin_Mervin
19-06-2007, 09:54
I never said the valver was shite, its an excellent car.
Im not sure on the rulings, but usually its 1400-1799 then 1800-2000 etc.
I cant see the 1.9 being in a class of its own?

The Williams was created to better the rival cars it set out to beat in the rallying it was used in.

What i meant it lost out in was with the publics eye, it never gets looked at or reconised for what it is, which is a shame.
Everyone always thinks the Williams and the 205.

The rulings on engine size changed at the time that the valver was winning. Renault simply didn't want to see the others stealing a march on them.

The valver probably only ever really lost out because of the hype around the Williams. It's obviously imopssible to say how it would've been viewed if the Williams had never been produced. Bit like the 309 GTI which is often considered to be a finer car than the 205 ever was.

Of course if evo were testing a valver today they'd complain about it's lack of torque and the fact you have to use that stick in the middle of the floor a bit. :lol:

northy
19-06-2007, 10:41
I never said the valver was shite, its an excellent car.
The Williams was created to better the rival cars it set out to beat in the rallying it was used in.

What i meant it lost out in was with the publics eye, it never gets looked at or reconised for what it is, which is a shame.
Everyone always thinks the Williams and the 205.


The valver probably only ever really lost out because of the hype around the Williams. It's obviously imopssible to say how it would've been viewed if the Williams had never been produced. Bit like the 309 GTI which is often considered to be a finer car than the 205 ever was.

Of course if evo were testing a valver today they'd complain about it's lack of torque and the fact you have to use that stick in the middle of the floor a bit. :lol:

One point to add here Mike.

In 1991 the valver was launched - and so was the clio cup racing series! The moto - race on sunday - buy on monday! Was the sole reason for the championship....to generate sales of the new car. Just like the R5 turbo series had.

But the clio 16V differed to the 16V cup car...suspension !!!

The cup cars ran what was later to be known as the williams set up....(widetrack)

So even as the first few 16v's were coming of the production line mods were inplace to make them better.

Swervin_Mervin
19-06-2007, 10:47
Aye. Did they ever fit the widetrack to the rally cars?

This is now so far off topic btw. :lol:

northy
19-06-2007, 10:49
Aye. Did they ever fit the widetrack to the rally cars?

This is now so far off topic btw. :lol:

Valver rally cars or williams ??

Swervin_Mervin
19-06-2007, 10:53
Valver rally cars. I can see the widetrack making sense on track y'see as it should allow higher cornering speeds and greater stability.

northy
20-06-2007, 17:31
I get the best of both worlds with my fleet lol...Williams for road driving - cup (valver with wide track) for trackdays.....does me proud heehee

Tullyvernon
20-06-2007, 21:15
I think the williams is special! 8)
Thers just something about them, I always wanted 1, and have never regreted buying mine :D
I cant believe that there geting sow much critisisim on here :(

schakal
20-06-2007, 21:43
I think the williams is special! 8)
Thers just something about them, I always wanted 1, and have never regreted buying mine :D
I cant believe that there geting sow much critisisim on here :(



that criticism is only coming from people that are
driving the second best mate http://www.barryboys.co.uk/phpBB2/images/smiles/stir.gif

soupie69uk
21-06-2007, 23:58
I just read all this, in my eyes the Williams is special. It just has that little bit extra than the 16v.

I think the 16v is cool when I see one and the same when I see the Williams.

Loads of cars are like this, when I see and old RS4 I think it’s special and loads of people will think it’s just an S4 with a few changes. But when I see an S4 I still think it’s cool.

I also think the 205 is special to. I think that’s because they are rarer now, especially in good and standard condition. Also because they are iconic.

This debate could go on forever and there about a million examples. I think the Clio Trophy is special as the magazines raved about them and they had those fancy dampers. But when I see an old 172 or a cup I still think they are cool, just not as special as the trophy.

Daz.
22-06-2007, 14:31
I think it is.
I hate mine.. it's never right, yet, I love it.. because it's a Williams.

Argh :lol:

He says after returning from my house! :P


Mat.

Stop picking on me! :wink:

ae
22-06-2007, 20:44
Obviously if you say so then I must be :roll:

Those who know me know different.

Mr vts_saxo thinks what a crap comment :bootyshake: The Williams will always be more SPECIAL than a valver full stop.

Andrew

Dancliovalver
24-06-2007, 19:52
i do believe the williams is quite a special motor, i also feel it always will be!!

i dont really like the comments bout the clio 16v tho, people are talking bout them like their nothing compared to the williams but there not alot different apart from a few little tweeks and the price, and performance wise yes before anyone says it the williams will always be ahead i know but theres not alot of difference

as much as i love the williams id never have one personally, if i owned one id feel like i wouldnt be able to change a thing, choice of wheels and so forth as i would be wrecking what the williams is most known for which i wouldnt want to do coz they look pretty kool as it is :P

Bailey_1260
24-06-2007, 19:56
I agree the wiliams IS SPECIAL but so is the valver in its own right.

So many cars are special for so many reasons veyron for sheer speed, williams for handling, imperza for looks/hype etc.

Hell even a reliant Robin is special :P

Dont think anyone really can say it isnt just for the sheer amount of heritage it has.