View Full Version : 205mi16/gti vs williams
david932
07-03-2007, 00:21
does the handling of a 205mi16/gti with uprated suspension match a williams with uprated suspension? has anyone's experienced going against one of these round a track?
driven a GTI 1.6 with suspension mods and it wasn't particularly special imo, didn't really get to thrash the living tits off it though... my mate says the Willy is in a different league after driving my old one (he had a GTI by the way lol)
The 205 GTi that was doing demo runs at FCS seemed pretty equal to most of the Willies out there. I think that had an Mi lump.
There won't be much in it, but I reckon modified like-for-like the Williams would have the edge. Standard v standard the Williams would walk it performance-wise. Though because the 205 is quite a bit older, it's also lighter, rawer and more edgy and is mega cheap to buy and modify.
stevie_b
07-03-2007, 09:59
They are roughly on a par. A good uprated setup on one would be better than a poorly set up one on the other. When I trashed my gearbox on a test day a competitor kindly lent me his 205 for my sessions so I could get some track time. I wasn't as quick in lap times but I knew my Clio pretty well and wasn't pushing the 205 as hard, but I would say they were similarly capable.
i would say the 205 MI16 would be quicker if like for like they just had suspension mods
less weight and more power with a good chassis. speaks for itself really
drove my mates 1.9 GTI and that seemed very quick up to 100mph, with his suspension set up tho it felt very twitchy
MI-16 is a gash overrated engine that cannot possibly produce anywhere near the claimed power, all the ones I have seen are running 15 second SQM's. Think Flaming Monkey was looking at one a while back and put it up against his Williams and the Willy spanked it into the middle of next week...
difficult one, one engine makes over quoted power regularly, the other imo cant make it's claimed power...
Slithers
07-03-2007, 11:34
I'd have to swallow my pride here and say the williams would edge it.
At the end of the day the Mi16 engine was never designed to go into the 205 gti (even though it does fit), so straight away you have a completely different weight setup at the front for the way the suspension was originally setup, so the chances are it won't handle the way it was designed to.
If the 205 gti had as much power as standard as a williams i'd probably say the 205 would win, but it doesn't, so it won't.
lol, yeah power to weight would be in it's favour, so with 170bhp MI-16 engines I cant understand why they dont put the times in, as 205's are grippy little bastards and cant weigh much more than 850kg's surely?
Slithers
07-03-2007, 11:39
lol, yeah power to weight would be in it's favour, so with 170bhp MI-16 engines I cant understand why they dont put the times in, as 205's are grippy little bastards and cant weigh much more than 850kg's surely?
A leading authority figure told that without the engine in 205 gtis weigh in the same as approximately 8.5 grey squirrels.
The some nutter said it was 900 kilos kerb weight.
lol!
heavier than I thought, my XR2 weighed only 840kg's! :shock:
And it's bloody tiny, even compared to a 205!
I think the very earliest 205s were 890kg. The latest 1.9s with leccy windows, sunroof, leather, etc were 915kg.
Slithers
07-03-2007, 11:58
And it's bloody tiny, even compared to a 205!
I think the very earliest 205s were 890kg. The latest 1.9s with leccy windows, sunroof, leather, etc were 915kg.
Them leather seats were shite and all, they fell apart if you farted on em a bit too hard.
Haha! Yeah, they were all shite - the bolster of my 1.6 seat collapsed after I brushed my arse past it whilst getting in one time.
ive had 4 205s :D
inc 1 rallye and 1 gti, handling is sooo much better than the mk2 clio
not saying much, Mk2 Clio handle shite in comparison to a Mk1 imo. Less body roll, but just dont inspire confidence and understeer a fair bit... Willy was nice and neutral and could be oversteered and controlled with relative ease
Slithers
07-03-2007, 12:26
Haha! Yeah, they were all shite - the bolster of my 1.6 seat collapsed after I brushed my arse past it whilst getting in one time.
Funny that mine did the same!!, thinking on it was probably my fat ass pushing the sides out, lol
2 of my mates have 205 mi16's, both on carbs, one has longman head/cams/pulleys etc( 200bhp approx ), and in a straight line it would WASTE my williams, the other has just carbs, and this one has the same performance as my williams, as for handling only really had one go against the lesser powered one, followed him round a roundabout and onto a slip road doing around 70mph, and the pug seemed to have the edge, and i was pushing him hard, the advantage he had over me was, he can do 70mph in 2nd gear, where obviously the williams needs a gear change, so he just planted it and it, and stuck to the ra, where as i needed to change gear, not a good idea through a bend at those speeds :shock:
saying that round a track, i believe the williams would be the quicker car, both running same power, i've had 2, 205's a 1.6 and a 1.9, both awesome cars, the mi16 is miles and miles ahead of both for performance.
thing is Bill those are modified MI lumps and they still make pathetic power outputs. One on carbs should waste you tbh if they made quoted power as standard... not heard anything impressive about them really, especially when you consider that a Willy weighs a passenger more at least...
They need the 'box from the 1.6. Makes a huuuuge difference :twisted:
thing is Bill those are modified MI lumps and they still make pathetic power outputs. One on carbs should waste you tbh if they made quoted power as standard... not heard anything impressive about them really, especially when you consider that a Willy weighs a passenger more at least...
yeah, i know what your saying, just putting in my 2pence worth, and just saying there not all slow, get a good one and it will blow your socks off :lol:
once i get the cams fitted and a remap, i'll have a go against the quicker one and see how it compares then :wink:
They need the 'box from the 1.6. Makes a huuuuge difference :twisted:
agreed, the quick one i'm on about runs a 1.6 box, the other a 1.9 ( hence 70+ in second )
a bit more info for those interested
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=193980&highlight=205+mi16
Matt_16v
07-03-2007, 13:00
1.6 g/box is obviously good for acceleration, but on my mates MI16 i think it only went upto a 110!
1.6 g/box is obviously good for acceleration, but on my mates MI16 i think it only went upto a 110!
:shock:
Running a 1.6 'box, I could get well into the 130s before it ran out of revs. And that's with a wheezy old 8v lump!
my mates on the 1.6 would pull into the 130's, at which point the competion was over :wink:
Matt_16v
07-03-2007, 13:13
he must of had something wrong then! I memba we were in his car and we had a go at a s200 on a private road of course, and we got to 110 and that was it!!
he must of had something wrong then! I memba we were in his car and we had a go at a s200 on a private road of course, and we got to 110 and that was it!!
well your mate clearly didn't have a 1.6 box then lol. Wayne and Slither's old 205GTI was standard and would pull to 130, which is about right due to speedo error, the book speed being 122mph iirc.
Matt_16v
07-03-2007, 14:20
lol, ill let him know! could be a xs box??
lol, ill let him know! could be a xs box??
doubt it, Wayne's bro had an excess and they would do similar speeds too iirc... not sure, but sounds like a diesel type box...
david932
07-03-2007, 21:03
The 205 GTi that was doing demo runs at FCS seemed pretty equal to most of the Willies out there. I think that had an Mi lump.
There won't be much in it, but I reckon modified like-for-like the Williams would have the edge. Standard v standard the Williams would walk it performance-wise. Though because the 205 is quite a bit older, it's also lighter, rawer and more edgy and is mega cheap to buy and modify.
cheers for the feedback fellas, some good info there. i've been pricing up track cars hybrid or 205 and ^^ those and loads of spares available are the main reasons why i will be getting a 205. the problem with the mi engine is it lacks torque and has a huge flatspot between 3 + 4k so instead i will be using a gti6 engine and box. hopefully it will weigh in at cira 800kg. will be running twin 45's and kms ignition ecu.
still gonna keep the willy as a road car, u may call me a traitor :oops: but at least it's still french!
There are 2 types of "mi16" lump.
1 is the alloy 1.9 block found in a 405
and the other is the 2.0 that is used in the 306 S16's.
Couple of my mates both run 205s, one with the 2.0 and the other with the 1.9.
The 2.0 hammers the 1.9, every time. And tbh wasnt far off my old hybrid. That engine in the 205 was standard too.
So if you want a 16v 205, go for the s16 lump. Far far better imo 8)
Swervin_Mervin
07-03-2007, 23:30
I was keeping pace with a stripped 205 and 309 in my std valver at Elvy and I had a passenger.
Could be the lame drivers though.
stevie_b
08-03-2007, 00:00
There are 2 types of "mi16" lump.
1 is the alloy 1.9 block found in a 405
and the other is the 2.0 that is used in the 306 S16's.
Correct. And not disagreeing which is better from an output point of view, but the 1.9 is a fair bit lighter and so may still be worth going for in a 205 when it is all about power to weight ratio? Maybe???
Certainly if anyone goes for the 1.9 be aware that there are oil surge issues that mean at the very least you should religiously ensure that the oil is kept on the maximum mark at all times. Even then I still blew two of them in a season :lol: :oops: Not sure if the 2.0 suffers the same problem?
Swervin_Mervin
08-03-2007, 00:18
That 2.0 lump was also only 155bhp. Don'y know if the later 168bhp one can be fitted or not. Main reason people go for the MIlump is the lightness.
david932
08-03-2007, 00:26
So if you want a 16v 205, go for the s16 lump. Far far better imo 8)
the gti6 engine i the same bottom end as the s16 but with a higher tuned head, inlet and exhuast manifolds. also the cams are more aggresive.
i did weigh up the idea of an alloy block but as mentioned they are prone to surges, not as advanced, and about 10bhp and shed loads of torque down compared as standard compared to the standard gti6
Swervin_Mervin
08-03-2007, 00:27
I remember Ken at RE reckoned the XU10J4RS was one of the best 4-pots ever made. Was dribbling over the 306 Rallye that tagged along.
stevie_b
08-03-2007, 00:30
Yeah. And the XU9J was really rated for a time when I was looking into them. Something about the large size of the valves for a production engine or something? Just a shame they had a propensity to blow up in my use :lol:
the GTI-6 engine can be fitted to the 205 but its allot more work
david932
08-03-2007, 00:32
form wat i hear it aint bad and it does drop straight into a 205.
i spoke to a chap who works 205's for racing purpose's and he reconed a standard XU10J4RS head flows as much as a stage 3 mi head :shock:
Swervin_Mervin
08-03-2007, 00:35
:shock:
8)
One day I might try and find me one of those ultra rare late ZX 16vs that came with the XU10J4RS. I like a challenge!
Stoker Willi 1 303
08-03-2007, 01:38
so the 1.9 and 2l is like comparing the 1.8 clio and 2l williams version, if i read that correctly.
you want more power go for the bigger motor in the first place 8)
darrenm1eqn
08-03-2007, 10:33
Running a 1.6 gearbox though can it handle the power ok or does it
need modifying :twisted:
my mates runs a 1.6 box with no problems, ands he's is knocking on 200 bhp, and has a nos kit to go on it yet :twisted:
darrenm1eqn
08-03-2007, 18:03
my mates runs a 1.6 box with no problems, ands he's is knocking on 200 bhp, and has a nos kit to go on it yet :twisted:
They must be bomb proof :shock:
just like the renault ones then. :lol:
stevie_b
08-03-2007, 20:50
If my memory serves me correct both of these guys were running the 1.6 boxes and must have had pretty serious power as they were about the fastest cars out at Curborough that day. Mind you, as you can see, they were pretty lightweight too!
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/pug2052.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j299/2stis/pug2051.jpg
remember the blue one above being in a mag, sure he went to the extremes on getting that light as fook!
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