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nyk
26-10-2006, 16:29
As I have been recently been informed by the lovely Winston, that a williams wide track adds only 16mm a side, totalling a MASSIVE 32mm, I am baffled as to why this tiny ammount makes such a difference and is raved about so much?

I am considering putting a wide track on my project car, but since finding out exactly how much difference it is I cannot comprehend how such a little difference can make such an impact. Surely wheel spacers will do the same job???

Please enlighten me with your experiences and convince me why I should bother putting it on my project car?

:lol:

Winston
26-10-2006, 16:30
:oops: :P :wink:

Daz.
26-10-2006, 17:12
Surely wheel spacers will do the same job???

tut tut tut

Grovit
26-10-2006, 17:22
I can't comment too much on wide track versus "slender track" for want of a better phrase as I don't have driving experience for comparing the two, however I would doubt that spacers would do the same sort of job certainly over the long term. Putting spacers on even with longer length bolts or studs puts a lot more strain on the hubs as they're asking the original equipment to cope with the strain of having a fairly weighty item stretched out further than intended.

Best analagy I can think of is holding a dumbell close to your chest and then comparing difficulty to holding same said dumbell out at arms length (pretty crap example but that's as good as it gets on a thursday afternoon I'm afraid :oops: ). It's asking a lot more for the equipment to deal with. Now take that difficulty and consider the impact of car motion and cornering forces and it gets all the worse.

Spacers are a no-no in my opinion - no good for anything except possibly aesthetics.

unrealneo
26-10-2006, 17:51
Lower offset, very light wheels is another option.

Could go as low as ET20 and still be less than the width of Willy track.

arj256
26-10-2006, 17:54
This is how i see widetrack works over spacers not 100% certain though:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/peterj.jones/Hosted%20Stuff/How%20Widetrack%20Works.JPG

As you can see the suspension makes the wheel go up and down, and with the example with widetrack the suspension goes up where the wheel is.

With the spacer the wheel goes up and down but the suspension isnt working in the same angle up and down as the widetrack setup does.
Thus meaning not the same performance despite the same look.

nyk
26-10-2006, 18:06
But its only 1.6cm dont forget?

Does anyone have any experience of both standard and a wide track and can clearly tell me that 1.6cm makes a difference and if so how much a difference?

Tutting but not giving any actual evidence of why is pretty pointless for the question I was asking.

I can understand your meaning arj256 - but what are the actual benefits of having a widtrack compared to the standard set up on a valver.

Winston
26-10-2006, 18:09
It's the difference in handling between a vaver and a williams

Im not going all techy on your asses ......Wide track car just feels much more sure footed and stable on the limit

I have no facts ...take my word for it ......10mph faster on most my fave corners

richy
26-10-2006, 18:14
pmsl, its not just wider is it, they also run a stronger anti-roll bar, the shockers and springs are also uprated over a 16v, if this didnt make any difference why would they have bothered fitting it to the clio cup competition cars! why not save money and use spacers! :roll:

VIPERONE
26-10-2006, 18:54
also it beefs the look up ... the track is noticably narrow on the valvers, its not the cheapests of mods tbh,.. however one that I noticed..what a difference it made to mine..

hubcentric spacers are a poor mans method of widetrack, but it doesnt add any benefit to the car.

white16valver
26-10-2006, 19:17
I widetracked mine (or rather the lovely matbrown did ;) lol) and there's a definite difference in handling.

Even though the original set up was knackered, therefore it's not a true like for like comparison, the turn in with the Willy wide track is SO much sharper. It still catches me out now sometimes, when I dial in more lock expecting it to understeer and it doesn't, meaning I'm heading towards the roundabout island rather quickly :shock: :oops: :lol:

If you're going to be replacing everything you really might as well go the whole hog and wide-track it - the cost for parts is barely much more than a new 16v set up and labour will be much the same! Make sure you do all the topmounts and bushes as well so it's tight 8)

lewis_willy2
26-10-2006, 19:24
ive had experience of both and widetrack rules as above alot sharper.

its the same principle is it not as drag cars having real wide wheels/tyres. they cover more surface area therefore grip better.


lewis

samboRT
26-10-2006, 19:51
can i wide track my RT??

really am thinkig about doing it now...

coilovers and wide track i am going to be after :P

Winston
26-10-2006, 19:56
Yes as long as your arches can handle it :D

richy
26-10-2006, 19:59
yeah can fit them just need 16v archs lol, i have full 1.8 16v set up inc 195/50s and mine sit right up against the archs on my 1.2!

samboRT
26-10-2006, 20:02
mine should be ok, they sit far in do the wheels.... its jst better than getting spacers ;)

someone want to sell me a widetrack?

how much do them things cost? :P

Grovit
26-10-2006, 20:13
But its only 1.6cm dont forget?

Does anyone have any experience of both standard and a wide track and can clearly tell me that 1.6cm makes a difference and if so how much a difference?


Not on a clio, however an Impreza I had, had spacers on the rear - only 3mm spacers each side, however it made the tail of the car a bit more skittish. Not neccessarily something I'd recommend.

An alternative to going wide track would be to have the geometry set up altered on the car. It wouldn't have the same ultimate effect as wide track, however altering the set up can significantly change how the car handles. Plus also depending on how aggresive you are of course, it can help get more life out of your tyres ! :D

Coops
26-10-2006, 20:49
no technical answer required, its a proper slag mod, end of! 8) what would you rather say, i have spacers or i have williams widetrack conversion?!

oh ans 16mm per side on suspension geometry is a shed load!think about lowering, you lower by 35mm you feel it, so if u widen the track by 32mm your gonna feel it!

nyk
26-10-2006, 20:59
I have not driven a wide track and therefore cannot compare, I would probably need to compare before I went and did it.

I asked as it seems a lot of messing for such a small gain in width.

Coops
26-10-2006, 21:04
imo, if your gonna overhaul the suspension with all new components its worth doing, but will cost a little more cuz of the driveshafts. if your not planning on overhauling completely then i wudnt bother.

richy
26-10-2006, 21:05
its not just for the extra width is it! the williams set up is just much better then the 1.8 suspension, same with the engine is! :wink:

Rich
26-10-2006, 21:30
nyk, i recently converted from std to widetrack and believe me the difference really is unbelieveable, i wasnt 100% convinced but as i got everything super cheap (cheers richy/bayliss) i took the plunge and believe mei havnt looked back since, widetrack coupled with harder poundage springs will turn the car intoa more stable ride with better feel when you are on the limit!

Daz.
26-10-2006, 22:40
I have not driven a wide track and therefore cannot compare, I would probably need to compare before I went and did it.

I asked as it seems a lot of messing for such a small gain in width.

I went from the valver to the williams and I doubt I'd feel comfortable anymore with a valver setup - its hard to explain but it feels "right"

They got it the second time round :wink:

DaveH
27-10-2006, 00:00
When doing 4 wheel alignment on a car the slightest of adjustments can create massive differences to driveability, the specs are measured in degrees and minutes (1/60th of a degree). For example a if an adjustment of 1 degree is made (outside spec) to the tracking of a car it will be all over the place and this could only be a couple of mm difference. This is the same with the widetrack which should explain that increasing track by 32mm is a massive amount.

It sounds like a small amount gained but converts to a big diff. when driving, you can tell by looking too the wheels on a willy seem to fill the arches better whereas the valver ones seem to sit too far inside

Sorry for going on its just the best way i can explain it lol

MatBrown
27-10-2006, 01:18
As Coops said, 32mm is a hell of a lot!



Mat.

wavy
27-10-2006, 01:38
I asked as it seems a lot of messing for such a small gain in width.
thats what i said to the doctor :?

i think itis quite a bit in the sceme of things

Andy
27-10-2006, 07:24
there is a reason why not many cars can keep with a willy in the corners


and it is the best hot hatch of all time

TriO`
27-10-2006, 07:59
i'm looking at widetracking my car soon.

can anyone find the thread wit hall the parts you need etc.. think it may have been lost in the server crash ?

is it worth going for standard willy suspension or willy oilovers or uprated willy suspension?? whats peoples opinions?

roughly how much would it cost for the whole lot

cheers, TriO`

nyk
27-10-2006, 08:32
I just bought Koni adjustables, so might see the difference in that first. I'm replacing wishbones, springs etc anyway. Just didnt want to be changing driveshafts really.

I may have to try and drive one with a widetrack first and see if i can justify the change. Cost is not an issue, I'm just dont want extra work just to be able to say "I've got wide track".

Grovit
27-10-2006, 08:36
When doing 4 wheel alignment on a car the slightest of adjustments can create massive differences to driveability, the specs are measured in degrees and minutes (1/60th of a degree). For example a if an adjustment of 1 degree is made (outside spec) to the tracking of a car it will be all over the place and this could only be a couple of mm difference. This is the same with the widetrack which should explain that increasing track by 32mm is a massive amount.


Bang on - although it sounds small, it is a massive amount.

Martin
27-10-2006, 08:39
Stnd willy stuff is the dogs imo I might change the Gaz coilovers on the white un' for willy shocks and some slightly lower springs....

J o n
27-10-2006, 08:45
I just bought Koni adjustables, so might see the difference in that first. I'm replacing wishbones, springs etc anyway. Just didnt want to be changing driveshafts really.

I may have to try and drive one with a widetrack first and see if i can justify the change. Cost is not an issue, I'm just dont want extra work just to be able to say "I've got wide track".

I think you need to have a go against someone local who has a Williams and see if you can keep up in the twisties, the Willy RAPES the valver on handling, its the best mod bar the 2.0 BE that you can do on these cars.

Zollo
27-10-2006, 08:45
If cost isn't an issue and everyone has said it's well worth it in terms of feel and handling improvements, and it's been explained that 32mm is actually a lot in regards to suspension setups, surely you've been convinced? :?

nyk
27-10-2006, 09:49
I may well have been convinced.

Still need to try it though. I dont see the point in putting second hand suspension on the car though. If its to be done, its gonna have to be all new.

Zollo
27-10-2006, 10:14
Oh yeah, only do it if you're putting new parts on. Second hand Valver parts to brand new Williams part will transform it, honest 8)

samboRT
27-10-2006, 11:20
how much roughtly for all the widr track parts? 8)

nyk
27-10-2006, 11:59
check out GSF. Thats what I've been doing this morning. Just waiting for them to come back to me with a price for the lot.

samboRT
27-10-2006, 12:03
i want second hand mate, im a cheap skate :lol:

stew
27-10-2006, 12:15
i was gonna wide track mine, but in the end didnt bother.

imo the valver track and good coilovers suits me fine.

means i can run lower without destroying my arches.

seemed to work well round cadwell anyway.

defo something that should be done if you can get decent parts cheap.

its the driveshafts that are stupid price new. everything else is reasonable.

jay s
27-10-2006, 12:27
yep driveshafts are stupid prices new: renault are £190.16 each ic vat and eurocarparts are £121 each inc vat.

Swervin_Mervin
27-10-2006, 18:05
I didn't think the Cup racers did run wider tracks.

Having now driven both I would say it deffo makes a huge difference. Willy feels more planted. Not convinced it makes any difference whatsoever on a track though in terms of outright cornering speed.

The reason a willy is quicker in the twisties is more down to the torque and its availability at lower revs.

richy
27-10-2006, 18:10
I didn't think the Cup racers did run wider tracks.

Having now driven both I would say it deffo makes a huge difference. Willy feels more planted. Not convinced it makes any difference whatsoever on a track though in terms of outright cornering speed.

The reason a willy is quicker in the twisties is more down to the torque and its availability at lower revs.

yeah look at northys etc there all running williams track

VIPERONE
27-10-2006, 18:11
yep driveshafts are stupid prices new: renault are £190.16 each ic vat and eurocarparts are £121 each inc vat.

ero car parts and gsf cant get willy shafts..there listed but wrong lengths..

it seems to be renault only...
i was luck i got 2 brand new shafts for £80 lol

Rich
27-10-2006, 20:31
richys were from euro car parts and were spot on :?

VIPERONE
27-10-2006, 20:33
i ordered a set x 2 to find they were shorter lol


supposed its luck of the draw!..i know ppl have had mares

rob16v
28-10-2006, 22:41
I thought the willy driveshafts and bottom arms were the same as the ones off a 19??

clean16v
28-10-2006, 23:12
i got my last ones for £80 each brand new. Think company was called autoparts?

Martin
29-10-2006, 08:06
I thought the willy driveshafts and bottom arms were the same as the ones off a 19??

no, only one of the shafts is the right length iirc the wishbones are the same though I think.

Geezer
29-10-2006, 09:49
Yes martin is right, only one driveshaft is the same. Both wishbones and ARB can be used.

Nyk, I've driven both recently and IMO its amazing how much different it feels. It just feels so right, control of the car round corners is so much diffferent. Reverting back to the 16v, the car just feels so twitchy and as if your not in control as much.

I'm converting mine to widetrack but I did manage to source all of the parts cheap.

Craig

wazza16v
29-10-2006, 10:09
just get wider wheels :D

Lunner
29-10-2006, 10:55
to give you an idea fit 15mm spacers, gives a similar effect, although not quite as good

Swervin_Mervin
30-10-2006, 18:35
I didn't think the Cup racers did run wider tracks.

Having now driven both I would say it deffo makes a huge difference. Willy feels more planted. Not convinced it makes any difference whatsoever on a track though in terms of outright cornering speed.

The reason a willy is quicker in the twisties is more down to the torque and its availability at lower revs.

yeah look at northys etc there all running williams track

Northy's didn't look like a wide track to me. Neither has any other Cup racer I've seen. The britcar ones have though.

Fair enough if I'm wrong but the Cups would've been homologated before the Willy was conceived so it just wouldn't make sense that they'd have other non-16v bits.

richy
30-10-2006, 19:32
im sure it has, im sure it was northy who told me it had wide track as std, only thing not williams esq is the engine as its a 1.8 still

MatBrown
30-10-2006, 21:14
I think it's just the amount of camber they run.



Mat.

richy
30-10-2006, 21:31
just checked with northy, his runs williams front suspension for sure, also found a slight thing on the williams....


the clio williams and the 16 valve in particular enjoys a reputation as one of the best-handling small cars ever made. the 2litre clio williams exploits that quality as never before. the front suspension is based circuit-specification design employed by clio cup competition cars. front track has been increased by 34mm and this, coupled with uprated springs, anti-roll cars and dampers results in near-competition standards of roadholding, combined with on road comfort akin to that of the "standard" 16 valveclio.
the rear suspension incororates programmed deflection and 4 torsion bars (features also derived from the clio 16v valve)and, again uprated shocks are used. the clio williams roadholding is further enhanced by handsome speedline 7" j15 light alloy wheels shod with michelin MXV3 185/55x15 rubber. add to all that the massive disc brakes all round and a perfectly weighted power steering and what have you got??. quite simply, a car which supplies, on the road, levels of grip and control normally enjoyed on the track.

Swervin_Mervin
01-11-2006, 14:29
Fair dos. I'm pretty sure they don't have any rear deflection though. The ZX/306/Xsara do and they have special mounts for the rear beam that you can see would twist.

I can't see what would twist on a willy/valver.

Zollo
01-11-2006, 15:22
The ZX/306/Xsara do and they have special mounts for the rear beam that you can see would twist.

And they're the nuts because of it :D

northy
01-11-2006, 15:25
mine is defo williams track. I have mentioned this before to you swervin after FCS :wink:

Swervin_Mervin
02-11-2006, 19:06
Yeah I remember you saying but you weren't sure at the time if it had willy specs because that's the way Cup cars were or because yours had had them fitted.

Fair enough though.

DaveH
03-11-2006, 19:13
So does that mean that renault decided to fit the wider track to the williams because of the superior handling of the early cup racers?

Zollo
04-11-2006, 12:14
So does that mean that renault decided to fit the wider track to the williams because of the superior handling of the early cup racers?

They probably had some idea that they'd be using the setup on the Williams anyway, I guess.