View Full Version : Blue smoke on lift off when being driven hard?
On the peaks run yesturday after the first bit of enthusiastic driving at high revs when I lift off, it puffs out some blue smoke and you can also smell it within the car, anyone got an ideas?
It seems fine was driving normally!
Also using a bit of oil too!
Any help would be great!
Cheers
Danny
Broken.
(you said any advice :wink: )
I'd be taking it straight back old son and asking the horses mouth.
Is it deffo when you lift off?
I was told (as my valve stem seals need doing so got advice from a mechanic) that if you get blue smoke when booting it and not on over run that it's likely to be valve stem seals, but if you get blue smoke on over run it could be your piston rings.
Just what I was told.
yer i was just told a similar thing! But going to try using a thicker oil first and see if that solves it, also gonna take it out for another good thrashing as it could just be through the bedding in period apparently!
Someone also said that it won't affect the power even though it's smoking, is this true?
Cheers
no, the other way round...
on over-run seal, any time, rings.
On an old one I had you could only see the blue smoke at night with lights behind, however if you maintained a speed over 120 for a few miles then came off and stopped att he bottom of the slip road a big blue cloud would overtake the car lol
one of the quickest stock 16V engines that I have ever driven as well
holy moley im getting confused, so if it's all the time then it's the rings and just on overrun its the seals?
what causes it then, in simple terms please?
And what oil do people recommend? and how thick?
cheers
take it back to whoever built the BE up Danny if the above are correct, you need to get them to fix it and dont pay for it either.
MatBrown
02-10-2006, 15:01
take it back to whoever built the BE up Danny if the above are correct, you need to get them to fix it and dont pay for it either.
Not the bottom end, Smoke on over-run is more likely valve stem seals, So needs to speak to whoever built the head up.
Mat.
MatBrown
02-10-2006, 15:02
And what oil do people recommend? and how thick?
cheers
I use either Fully synthetic 15w50 Motul 300v or Semi synthetic 10w40.
Mat.
on over-run, i.e. when throttle is close, but engine turning at speed, you get a large vacuum in the inlet system. if the valve stem oil seals are worn, the the oil will be literally sucked through due to this vacuum.
If the oil control ring is worn, oil will pass it and burn...not effected by over-run....it will do it all the time, but likely only noticable when u boot it.
How old is the engine then? youbve recently had it rebuilt??
a lot of f7 series engines seem to do this when being driven hard.
mine does it from time to time when the oil level is at max.
Andyvalver
02-10-2006, 16:21
So if thats right^^^ its not really a big deal tbh :wink:
edit.. i meant Stans comment :)
Mr.AdamB
02-10-2006, 16:27
my 163k engine has blue smoke when i drive it hard 1st time for the day hitting 7k+ out comes loads of shit, after that its fine! also wen i tap the pedal o nthe overrun to pop sum little flames it puts out the same crap that coems otu wen i rag it for 1st time i na day. so ii think mainly that was unburnt feul.
and its a 163k engine probably would tan nearly everyoen valver tho 8) its a beast
and its a 163k engine probably would tan nearly everyoen valver tho 8) its a beast
Brave words!!!
Andyvalver
02-10-2006, 16:40
my 163k engine has blue smoke when i drive it hard 1st time for the day hitting 7k+ out comes loads of s**t, after that its fine! also wen i tap the pedal o nthe overrun to pop sum little flames it puts out the same crap that coems otu wen i rag it for 1st time i na day. so ii think mainly that was unburnt feul.
and its a 163k engine probably would tan nearly everyoen valver tho 8) its a beast
My 158k valver seems to go better than most. Im not sure how long it will last though but it shoes no signs of failing 8)
Only a bit of smoke on lift off like you but thats only on the odd occation and i do kill it dailly :twisted:
dont confuse the puff of BLACK smoke you will see belowing out when u cane them...this is normal, due to enrichment for max power.
sorry to steal the thread Mr. T but how was the back of mine?
ive only come across a few F7 engines that dont do this!
Im using 5W 40, Silkoline. Its burning it fast as ****.
Might go for 10 or 15 next time
Stan,
The bottom end has only done about 60-70k miles, honing marks all good, big and main bearings looked ok! Head was rebuilt fully, new stem seals, pressure tested, cleaned, valves lapped, skimmed etc!
Just looked at the spark plugs and they are slightly brown, one darker than the other, also checked compression and all 4 were around 11-12 bar, does this sound ok?
Any other things i can do or check?
Also will oil being burnt and the car smoking not affect performance at all then and if not how long will it go on like this for until it gets serious etc or is it worth stripping down and rebuilding again fully?
One last thing, when putting my hand over the exhaust it spits out black stuff, like small drops of oil or dirt, is this normal or should this not be happening either?
cheers
danny
Stan,
The bottom end has only done about 60-70k miles, honing marks all good, big and main bearings looked ok! Head was rebuilt fully, new stem seals, pressure tested, cleaned, valves lapped, skimmed etc!
Just looked at the spark plugs and they are slightly brown, one darker than the other, also checked compression and all 4 were around 11-12 bar, does this sound ok?
Any other things i can do or check?
Also will oil being burnt and the car smoking not affect performance at all then and if not how long will it go on like this for until it gets serious etc or is it worth stripping down and rebuilding again fully?
One last thing, when putting my hand over the exhaust it spits out black stuff, like small drops of oil or dirt, is this normal or should this not be happening either?
cheers
danny
VIPERONE
02-10-2006, 22:39
ive seen a few 16vs willys that puff out smoke on over run=- blue smoke at that.
the most recent one was Crossers on here who has a willy2. his smoked like yours so he got the head rebuilt and refurbed..
the smoke was still there, shortly afterwards the bottom end went.
check no oil spolls then assess your bottom end with the relevant testing methods/ tools
Black shit its spitting out will be a mixture of carbon/water...it wont be burning so much that it would chuck it out the back...
Honing marks are often mistakenly taken as an indicator of an engines condition...they arent. It could still be out-of-round or taperead, AND have honing marks.
Compression is another misleading one...it could happen that an engine shows good compression, but burns oil via the rings...dont forget there are three rings, 2 compression, and ONE for oil. If the oil control ring was damaged, then it would leak oil...not "pressure".
As Midge says, its not an uncommon trait....tho VERY annoying.
It sounds more like an valve stem problem as opposed to ring related.
One thing you could check is that the breathr from the rocker cover isnt spewing oil into the inlet.
FlamingMonkey
02-10-2006, 22:43
Nearly ever Willy I have seen has done it, Mine, 2lives, Martins, Northys hell I have even seen Chris Cup do it, must be all the fast ones, your Valver used to do it aswell I remember it clearly.
was it defo blue smoke, not black, when giving beans??
how much oil is she drinking then?
mine does it a bit from time to time n all, never worried me and mine drinks literally no oil atall, no where near the 1 litre per 1000 miles or whatever that quoted figure is that floats about
FlamingMonkey
02-10-2006, 23:32
Not like this Rob, was a fair bit... :?...I only saw it on full chat, not sure about on overrun.
ah should of got my ass out of bed and I could of cast my expert opinion over it :P
VIPERONE
03-10-2006, 00:15
piston rings lol
daz - yours didn't seem to be smoking fella, think it's fine bud!
stan - before the meet i topped the oil up and after some hard driving and a few extra miles it was at min yday, so it's used a litre in a few hundred miles if that!
Also checked for smoke last night, and it's visible when flooring it, so does that mean rings then?
I'll try using thicker oil and checking the breather, what shall i do with the breather stan?
Any other ideas?
Thanks
depending on how hard the thrashin was...litre in a few hundred miles is not overly excessive.
is it smoke screen kinda bad.....or jus a bit of a whisp evry now n then
smoke screen style fella ..deffo excessive imo
Well either they ****ed up on one or more of the seals (kinda unlikely really), or theres a problem with your oil control rings.
11bar isnt really low....but i usually see around 14bar from these engines. but as above...its not an absolute definate indicator.
mine did this earlier after i gave it some stick.
did it twice and then stopped :o. Sounds cool, but the blue smoke is embarrasing :(
Ive got a stainless straighthru, so that cant be helping things
sounds like your rings mate if its doing it when you floor it, time for F7R?
simple fact is even with fresh bores and rings it will smoke slightly, the bore sprays are a lot more generous than say porsches and throw a lot more oil onto the bores so it will smoke.
i followed you for a bit on the peaks run mate and it was defo worse when you booted it, i dont know if you saw pickie's but his was doing it on overrun down hills etc but not when he gave it beans so thats two different faults.
I recently rebuilt the engine on my 16v because it was exactly the same as yours and burnt a litre of oil in a week 150-200 miles. When i took the pistons out the oil rings were worn flat and the bores were worn at one side, i replaced the rings and honed it best i could (even got some fine wet and dry in there!) and it seems to be fine now, only uses slight amount and a slight puff when i set off when hot but thats it.
Also i had the oil drops on my hand from exhaust on tick over you speak of and it covered the back of the car in spots as well! Yours would prob be spot on with new rings because you say the bores were in good condition
Dave - I remember now mate, yer it was chucking it out a bit, i'm gonna give it another good run and change the oil, but like you say some new rings will be the next big step if all else fails, but considering i've just fitted the F7R, moneys a bit tight for an overhall!
Also if I am to remove the engine, then I'm assuming i'll need to get a new cam belt, fit new rings, hone the bores etc, is there anything else i would have to do or anything i should do if i remove it?
And should it still be alright to drive everyday and do a couple of track days as it is as long as i keep the oil level topped up, or could it cause any damage if there is a problem?
Cheers
Danny
P.s the smoke doesn't seem as bad, after i floored it the other night, was a small amount of blue vapour on full throttle through 4th and 5th!
It didn't do it after the first 500-1500 miles, so why would it be doing it now?
Crossers
05-10-2006, 11:48
As per gunner.
Mine does this, had the head rebuild and no change. its deffo piston rings.
Mine's at LTR now for bottom end rebuild, however she developed a new propblem on the way. Just cut out n now the fuel relay constantly rapidly clicks n the engine only runs for a few seconds badly before cutting out.
Fookin Clios
Paul
It didn't do it after the first 500-1500 miles, so why would it be doing it now?
If there was any debris in the head/inlet after it was rebuilt, it would obviously be drawn the chanber and damage the bores&rings.
i bought mine in april and it was totally fine and owner said it had had rebuilt engine put in by ltr but 3-4k down the road it was really bad which is why i couldnt understand it looking at the bores/rings i couldnt believe all that wear had happened in a 3-4k miles it looked like it had been ran without a filter for some time!
I tried changing the oil but made no odds and tbh it would fade out a lot in 4th and 5th gear. If the engine has already been rebuilt then it would just need a honing and rings fitted. Maybe do big end bearings whilst your there cos pistons have to come out anyway and thats another common fault out of the way! If it had a belt etc when you put the engine in it shouldnt need doing, obviously youd need a new h/g though
mine did it. valve stem seal needed sorting thats all :)
if the bore is damaged the only proper option is to measure it up and take it from there. Its hit and miss if you simply visually decide it "just needs a hone". Besides, honin his a surface finnish procedure...not a mass material removal one.
How long after LTR rebuilt it was it burning oil?
jtrenaultuk
06-10-2006, 12:14
i bought mine in april and it was totally fine and owner said it had had rebuilt engine put in by ltr but 3-4k down the road it was really bad which is why i couldnt understand it looking at the bores/rings i couldnt believe all that wear had happened in a 3-4k miles it looked like it had been ran without a filter for some time!
I tried changing the oil but made no odds and tbh it would fade out a lot in 4th and 5th gear. If the engine has already been rebuilt then it would just need a honing and rings fitted. Maybe do big end bearings whilst your there cos pistons have to come out anyway and thats another common fault out of the way! If it had a belt etc when you put the engine in it shouldnt need doing, obviously youd need a new h/g though
I am not entirely sure on which car you are talking about, but we have never rebuilt an engine for a customer up until the last month, i have only rebuilt engines for my personal use, so the engine you refer to was not rebuilt by us. we may well of fited a new engine for this person but it would only have been a second hand one.
Stan, there was a visible lip at the top of the bores which meant there has been wear there and i didnt decide it "just needs a hone" you could feel it with your finger nail. if i could have took the car off the road and it wasnt being a hinderance in a mates garage i would have either got it slightly bored or put a new bottom end in because if its as bad as this was you sometimes can just tell by looking. i had to make do with what time and equipment i had so i had no option but to do the best i could and hope!
The bores were also discoloured just at the rear of the cylinder as though they hadnt even made contact for a while (prob due to badly worn rings) so as previously said i got some fine wet and dry on those parts to get them looking something like and then honed (hardly ideal i know) for a good while on each bore. I have also seen bores that people have honed away at this lip and they have been worse afterwards meaning they must have taken something off however minute.
jtrenaultuk, i was dubious when i bought the car because the bloke i bought it off just said it had had a rebuilt engine put in because the old one was knocking but he didnt know any details of what had been done because he wasnt very clued up so i just took it as a pinch of salt and it ran fine so i was happy. when i took it apart and saw the damage i knew it hadnt been rebuilt because there was no way all of that wear could happen so quick to a rebuilt engine.
he had done 1k in it and i did a further 3ish before it got bad so i just figured he had just had an engine put in (not rebuilt).
Im sorry i didnt make it clear i was just pointing out how i couldnt understand how the wear had happened so quick until i stripped it and realised it hadnt been done, its in no way a reflection on you and that was never the point i was making, i even bought the new head off you for the rebuild and was really impressed by the knowledge and parts supply!!
Yeah mate im not knocking you..im just sayin that by using wet and dry and honing, youve likely INADVERTANTLY made the bore geometry poor....meaning poor oil control.
In any case it needs fixing now! Is it 2.0 or 1.8? Either way, i would suggest a 2.0 in good shape, with pistons to suit.
If you need any parts etc give me a shout, i'll help as much as poss.
cheers mate i just thought id explain myself and the reasons behind it for dannys benefit. to be fair the engine is using far far less oil now and doesnt smoke under load like it did. Only smoke is when it comes to rest at lights for a while and i set off sharpish theres a puff but thts it. i got the best improvement i think i was going to get.
Its a 1.8 still and ive been toying with the idea of putting a 2.0ltr in but its just the cost thats involved. i think i would put the engine in myself but what would be the rough cost of parts involved? hardly ever see those bits for sale as well! ive seen a few engines at the 600 mark which i think is a tad dear for a 10-12 year old stock engine
Ive got a customers F7R in my workshop...he wants £500 for that.
Other than that its plug and play.
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